Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 05, 2009 05:56pm | #1

   Stains, such as the Minwax, that you mention, usually combine an oil soluble dye and pigment, and tend to be the worst for blotching.  Pigment only stains are better.  The easiest way to track them down is to use a gel stain, most of which don't include a dye component. 

   With hard woods like maple (even soft maple is pretty dense), pigmented stains generally work best if you are seeking only a light to moderate shade.  To get darker you would need to begin with a dye.  You should look for a powdered water soluble dye.  With dye you control the intensity of the color by the concentration of the dye solution.  I apply dye by essentially flooding the surface (I use a sponge), working from the bottom up.  Wipe off excess so you don't get puddles.  Flooded on all portions get saturated, rather than having the more porous areas accept more stain and becoming darker.  You still may have some variation (blotching) but it should be much less.   

   Then, after the dye dries, you can seal the surface with a coat of 1 1/2  to 2 lb. cut of shellac and apply a pigment only stain, such as a gel stain, to add depth.  Since this will darken the surface a little more, you would want to make the dye step a little on the light side. 

   You do need to do sample boards to work out the steps. 

    

2. 
   YesMaam27577 | Oct 05, 2009 10:55pm | #2

   Like Steve said -- use a dye.

   I recently finished a mantle clock made from curly maple (soft). I used TransTint dye, mixed with alcohol (although I now know that water wuld have been just as good.)

   It worked wonderfully. I raised the grain with clear water, allowed it to dry and sanded.

   Then applied the dye, using a spritz bottle. After a wait (maybe twenty or thirty seconds?), I wiped off any excess, using a dry rag.

   At first, that looked a bit blotchy. But when I re-sanded to smooth out the raised grain, it looked great.

   http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=47970.1

   I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
   And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
   I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
   So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)

1. 
   DHAM | Oct 06, 2009 12:51am | #3

   Thanks Guys. I will try the dye. I will let you know how it works out. YesMaam, that is a beautiful clock! I want my color just a shade darker, kind of a deep honey color to match some other furniture. So, I will:Do final sanding.
   Apply dye.
   Sand to remove raised grain.
   Let dry.
   Apply shellac.
   Depending on color, maybe apply gel stain to darken.
   Top coat.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 06, 2009 04:32am | #4

   Let me suggest just a few modifications to your schedule

   Your schedule:Do final sanding.Apply dye.Sand to remove raised grain.Let dry.Apply shellac.Depending on color, maybe apply gel stain to darken.Top coat.

   Suggested scheduleApply dye. Let Dry, Apply shellac, Sand to remove raised grain.Maybe apply gel stain.Top coat. 

   Not a big change and your method will work.  I just find it easier to sand raised grain when it has been locked into shellac.  You can also reduce, but not eliminate, raised grain to be sanded after dye has been applied by raising the grain, drying and LIGHTLY sanding before applying the dye. 

    

    

    

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | Oct 14, 2009 12:23am | #6

   I'm sorry, but I will disagree with your suggestion.You suggested that the dye (water based, or maybe alcohol based but with water included in the mix since that's how you buy the stuff) be applied, then the shellac. Without a sanding between.Maybe I'm just way too retentive -- but sanding after the dye seems critical. It not only removes the raised grain hairs, but is also removes a blotchy-look that the water in the stain causes.I'd be really afraid that shellac before the sanding might leave that blotchiness in the final result.

   I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
   And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
   I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
   So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 14, 2009 12:46am | #7

   You can certainly sand the dye, it's not a "mistake".  But, frankly, I don't see how that addresses any blotching that's not associated with the raised grain.  And, sanding after shellac you easily get rid of the raised grain, but with less risk of over sanding some of the dyed areas. 

    

2. 
   dmdnk | Oct 14, 2009 07:07am | #8

   One thing I often do with soft maple is to raise the grain BEFORE staining with water soluble dye.  I sand to 150 grit then wipe the whole project down with a damp sponge, let it dry, then give a final sanding with 240. 

   David

1. 
   DHAM | Oct 14, 2009 06:05pm | #9

   I am getting close to the finishing process. Thanks for the suggestions. I purchased Transtint dye in dark vintage maple. Once I get the drawers finished, I will apply the finish and post a pic if y'all are interested in the final result!

3. 
   Beckum | Oct 13, 2009 12:25am | #5

   Go here and watch this guy. Great video here on FWW.

   https://www.finewoodworking.com/subscription/finishing-videos/index.asp

   You want to look at the clip on how to make a sunburst finish. It may not be exactly what you're looking for, but it may give you some great ideas on how to proceed.

   Best of luck!

4. 
   stevecater | Oct 14, 2009 09:01pm | #10

   This may or may not be possible for you but ML Campbell (and others) make spray only dye stains that dry almost instantly and essentially eliminate blotching. I have used this on eastern white pine and cherry, 2 materials famous for nasty blotching issues and have excellent results.

   Of course this requires spray equipment to apply and can not in any way be hand applied but it works like a charm.

   I have used a neutral gel stain base (gel stain with no pigment added) in the past (hand applied), let dry then start with color gel stains. This 'helps' with the blotching but never really makes me truly satisfied with the end result.
   From my experience ready made conditioners are totally a waste of $ and the only way to eliminate blotching (in hand application) is to seal the wood before applying color (wash coat). This is detrimental to you as you want a darker color and it will be more difficult to build that once the wood is sealed.

   I agree with the post re: adjusting your schedule to not sand between the stain and shellac/topcoat. Any grain raised will be locked by the shellac and easily cut with light sanding and will not interfere with the final look. There is much greater risk of damage to the color layer IMO by sanding before seal coat. My preference would be to raise grain with demineralized water, let dry and light sand as the first step.

   Good luck.

1. 
   DHAM | Oct 15, 2009 12:18am | #11

   Steve,This is excellent! One question about spraying, I have an air compressor and sprayer, but I was thinking of using a spray bottle to hand spray the dye (like a Formula 409 bottle with the little hand lever). The only reason is that it is simpler and less time consuming to mess with the spray gun. However, if you think the spray bottle is a bad idea, tell me so. Also, I have already purchased Transtint dye this go-round, so I will give it a try. I like your suggestion about the spray-only dye that dries immediately, so I am going to check into that for future projects.

1. 
   stevecater | Oct 15, 2009 07:00pm | #12

   Re. the 409 bottle... Absolutely not. Such a bottle will not atomize the stain and will make a mess. I suspect the stain would also destroy the plastic bottle in shirt order as well, it's an acetone or lacquer thinner base I believe.Spraying stain takes some practice. Light coats, careful overlap and build up to the end color rather than go for a 1-pass approach works best. Your spray gun must be able to atomize the stain properly which means fine needle/tip selection as the Woodsong II is VERY thin, almost like straight lacquer thinner. Respirator and good ventilation are also required!I have used an Accuspray non-bleeder and a turbinaire bleeder cup gun with great results in the past. The pic attached is a door in white pine with lots of sap/heart wood variations that would be a bear for blotching with typical wiping stain. I used the MLC product here with a burnt umber traditional glaze and conversion varnish topcoat. No obscene blotching at all. A bonus is you can shade lighter areas to color variations like blend heart & sapwood.
   In the pic you can just make out the glueup in the lower left panel. the left half was a darker, pinkish tone almost, heartwood while the right half was white sapwood. The spray stain allows you to blend the variation nicely.

   
1. 
   DHAM | Oct 16, 2009 02:19pm | #13

   Beautiful!