Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 19, 2003 08:25pm | #1

   Sounds like it might have been a strongly-fumed oak finish (Fuming with ammonia produces a reaction with the tannin in the oak which darkens the wood.  It can be done to such a degree that the color is extremely dark).  This is a classic finish and IMO should not be altered.  Indeed, it may be nearly impossible to do so, and the actual color of the oak has been changed fairly deep beyond the surface.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Alan | Oct 20, 2003 03:19am | #2

   Noble,

   I agree with Forest girl:  first find out with what  the wood was colored before you make any decisions about removing the color.

   If you are determined to start with a blank canvas, so to speak, bleach will remove any type of coloring I've ever encountered.  Good old Clorox will remove most anything but the most stubborn finishes; anything Clorox won't get out oxolic (sp?) bleach will.

   However (the ubiquitous modifier) the use of bleach can really leave you with a blank canvas:  bleach can remove so much color that you're left with white wood (this is not an exageration).  This may not be a problem for you.  Stains dyes, or fuming oak, will all still work to give you any color to any degree you might wish.  With some woods that have a greenish tint, ash and poplar for example, I will actually bleach the wood before I put on any stain or dye.  Bleaching these woods removes the green tinge and prevents the applied color from getting muddy.

   Alan

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 20, 2003 05:20am | #3

   Alan, do you think bleach (or oxalic) would work on heavily fumed oak?  I truly don't know.  My intuition says "no" but it's certainly been known to be wrong!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   noblejack | Oct 20, 2003 06:16am | #4

   Hi forestgirl

   I stripped a small unnoticeable piece of the desk and I think it was probably painted with what they used to call milkpaint. I suspose it may have been fumed under the painted surface but I cant see it as so much of the pigment of the paint remains.  I suspect I may have to bleach it and then restain it to get the appearence I want.

   Thanks Noble 

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 20, 2003 06:40am | #6

   What solvent did you use to strip the small spot?  Milk paint would be a very unusual finish for that desk.  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   noblejack | Oct 20, 2003 07:20am | #7

   Hi

   I used a Jasco stripper.  It really peels off your average finish including most old paints. Noble

2. 
   forestgirl | Oct 20, 2003 09:05am | #8

   Yes, but it isn't effective on real Milk Paint.  I think you've got somethin' else on your hands (so-to-speak).  Milk paint is a real toughie when it comes to stripping, and I seem to remember that methylene chloride has very little effect on it.

   The stripper that is marketed for removing true milk paint contains calcium hydroxide and sodium carbonate.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   JeffKurtz | Oct 20, 2003 02:44pm | #9

   methylene chloride... calcium hydroxide... sodium carbonate

   Looks like the First Lady of the Forest is also the Belle of the Chemistry Lab!

   Jeff

4. 
   Gretchen | Oct 20, 2003 04:23pm | #10

   Another possibility of finish is shellac that has just gone really black.  Try denatured alcohol. I don't think milk paint is at all a traditional finish for this as has been said. And even a good methylene chloride stripper will not remove it easily.  Lye (sodium hydroxide, I beleve) come closest to stripping milk paint.

   AND before you go further, think hard about how you are going to strip the roll top portion of this. THAT is a bear under the best of circumstances.Gretchen

5. 
   noblejack | Oct 20, 2003 05:12pm | #11

   Hi Gretchen

   Alcohol, laquer thinner and mineral spirits didnt help.  The piece I stripped was full of pigment and two methyl chloride strips with wiping with the solvents didnt remove alot of the surface color.

   Noble

6. 
   forestgirl | Oct 20, 2003 07:56pm | #12

   "Belle of the Chemistry Lab"  Ahhhhh-hah-hah-hah!  NOT!  But I'm real good with Google.  I think I set a personal record last night -- had 10 or 11 windows open at the same time.  All sparked by the one thing that I actually knew -- regular stripper doesn't work on milk paint.

   Actually, in the process, I discovered that there's another "genuine milk paint" place out there (besides the Old Fashioned Milk Paint Co., which shall forever remain my favorite).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Alan | Oct 21, 2003 01:38am | #13

   Noble,

   I have very limited experience with milk paint--but my single go at it is relevant here.  It was (and still is) an old chest that was obviously cobbled together by someone who really wasn't much of a woodworker.  It likely dates from the first half of the ninetenth century.

    The inside is beautiful about twenty-inch wide pine boards--no jointed panels; the outside was an old "antiquing kit" finish that was blistering and chipping.  I got the paint off, and underneath was red milk paint (according to my landlady, who knows about such things) that was deep into the wood and yet was almost powdering on the outside.  The stripper (sorry I don't remember which) removed some, but the wood was still red.  Washing it with mineral spirits removed all I was going to get removed.  But the wood was still red.

   I went back upstairs and got my laundry bottle of brand X bleach, and I mixed about two cups or so with half a gallon of warm water.  I used rags to wash the chest with it, and then wiped the surface with paper towels.  If my memory isn't failing me--yet again--I don't think I did this more than three or four times.  The last time, when I got very little red on my towels, I gave up.  But the wood was still red; not quite as red, perhaps, as when I began, but still definitely red.  The wood was still damp and smelled of bleach.  I left it that way and called it a day.

   The next morning the chest was nearly bone white, not a hint of red, but the grain still showed.  I finished it with garnet shellac and my own recipe of brown tinted wax.  When it's time to re-wax I use untinted wax I mix up myself.

   I'm delighted the way it turned out.  Not a trace of red.  My idea is that bleach bleaches; (duh) so long as the bleach can actually penetrate into where the color is, it will bleach out the color.  Others more chemically inclined will no doubt disagree.

   But I still think ForestGirl's advice is good:  find out what you're dealing with before you take any irreversable steps.

   Alan  (who once again went on too long)

1. 
   Gretchen | Oct 21, 2003 02:51pm | #14

   Done is done--but in this case you really did harm the value of your piece. The original paint on that is valuable.  That said, if you like it (and the wood used under milk paint was usually gorgeous pine) then that is good.Gretchen

2. 
   Alan | Oct 22, 2003 02:04am | #15

   Gretchen,

   Every antique is not valuable; and age is not an indicator of value.  My chest was not, and is not valuable for many reasons:  for example, the wood was cut from a single board (which must have been over fifteen feet long!) and that board wasn't even properly dimensioned--the boards are thicker on one end and one side and taper down; our "craftsman" nailed the butt joints together, there was no attempt to make reasonable or long lasting joints.  It's a miracle the thing has held together as long as it has.  In fact, right now it's coming apart; the cut nails into the end grain are no longer holding.  I'm afraid I'll have to perform some serious surgery on it (I got some chest corners from Van Dykes that will look okay).  Beneath the antiquing kit the milk paint was in terrible condition; the hinges don't match; the "lip" around the top was half-round nailed on only three sides...  I could go on, but in short the thing was UGLY!  I bought it from an antique store about thirty years ago for a piddling amount, about five dollars.  Others more expert than I on such things have seen it and agree:  it was not a valuable piece (I'm not that stupid).

   Alan

2. 
   noblejack | Oct 20, 2003 06:22am | #5

   Hi Alan

   I fairly convinced it was painted with what they used to call milk paint.  I am unsure if it was fumed as stripping removed alot of the finish but left so much pigment that I am unable to see the wood surface clearly.  I suspect I may have to use your bleach method.  Do you use simple chlorox or do you make a sautrated solution from swimming pool chlorine?  This is a large desk and may take some time to get all the color out before refinishing.  Thanks Noble