Replies

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 15, 2005 04:26am | #1

   There's not really any way to stain the wood underneath the existing finish because none of them will penetrate the existing finish.

   If it were me... I would use some sort of a stripping agent to strip the existing finish off, wipe it down good with an appropriate solvent (or water if your stripper is water-based) soaked rag, let it dry thoroughly and then lightly sand it the wood with 180 grit sandpaper (being careful to sand with the grain wherever possible) before proceeding with the refinish job. The advantage of using a stripper rather than sanding the existing finish off is that you'll end up with a straighter surface. Sanding finish off tends to leave dips in places so that the thing looks sorta rippled when you're done. Plus, trying to sand a finish off in tight corners takes a lot of elbow grease.

   There are some products out there which offer an alternative to the really caustic strippers. But, I've never used any of them. Maybe someone who has experience with them will chime in here. Either form of stripper is easily found in most any hardware store of any size. I personally like the caustic stuff. But, be warned... it's nasty. A good respirator and a great deal of caution to ensure none of it gets on your clothes or, worse yet, on your skin would be in order when using the caustic stripper. But... on the other hand it's fast and effective for the same reasons that it's nasty.

   I'm assuming that you don't have spray equipment. So, for the finish I would suggest a gel stain followed by a wipe on or brush on poly finish. There are almost inumerable alternatives, of course. And everyone seems to have their favorite one. But, I think these will be the easiest for a novice to use and achieve good results.

   If you choose to use a stripping agent to chemically strip off the existing finish then you'll need either a lot of throw-away rags or a good supply of sawdust with which to soak up and remove the stripped finish from the table. And you'll want some good solvent resistant gloves to wear.

   Technique depends a great deal on which finish approach you choose to go with. So, I'll limit my advice here to the stripping step. For that I would suggest following the directions explicitely and start from the top and work your way down.

1. 
   gabaghoul | Aug 15, 2005 04:48am | #2

   Thanks for the quick response.  Very informative also.  I was worried about the whole stripping thing because of the possibility of contact with these dangerous materials.  But it seems like it will be inevitable if I want to do it right.  BTW, how long do most stripping agents take to remove a finish like lacquer or polyurethane?  (6 hours? half a day? overnight? a week?)  Also, I have used water-based dyes in the past and they seem to achieve some nice rich colors but I figured I couldn't use them on top of a finish.  I guess if now I am going to strip it raw I will be able to take advantage of using a dye.  Thanks again. 

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 15, 2005 05:06am | #3

   Well... to take your response in reverse order here...

   One could add alcohol dye to shellac and just shellac over the existing finish. That would certainly be easy and fast. But, you say that the finish is worn thru on spot. If so then I don't think it'd look nearly as nice because the color wouldn't be uniform. Still... you could try it on the top just to see if you like it. Then if you don't you could proceed with stripping it along with the finish underneath.

   Actually... come to think of it there are some new fangled dyes designed specifically for automotive clears. I doubt anyone has tested for it, but I should think they'd be compatible with a non-water based polyurethane... which would be a lot tougher of a finish than shellac. Problem is they're not easy to get ahold of nor are they cheap.

   Lacquer should strip a lot faster than poly would. But, in either case I think you'd be looking at an hour or less. If it's poly then I would go with the stronger "aircraft stripper" which is just a stronger version of the caustic wood finish stripper. Same active ingredient but in higher strength.

   One bit of advice on chemically stripping... I wouldn't try to strip the entire table in one fell swoop. I'd do a section at a time. You don't want the stripper to dry before you get to that area. 'Cause then you'd have to reapply it and wait again. It's easier and more economical to do a section at a time. After the first section you should be able to judge pretty accurately whether the next section should be larger or smaller.

   An easy way to test whether the finish is lacquer (or something similar) or polyurethane would be to soak a little bit of fingernail polish remover in a rag and do a wipe test. If it dissolves some of the existing finish right away then it's definitely not poly. If it's lacquer then it'll be pretty darn easy to strip. Poly takes a bit more pursuasion.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 16, 2011 11:33am | #15

   I agree that stripping makes the best sense.   It's doubtful the finish is anything other than lacquer.  It wouldn't be an oil based polyurethane--that's not a finish used on factory furniture.  It could be a catalyzed lacquer.  And while some European furniture might have used a 2-part polyurethane finish, d doubt it was used in this case, both because it is expensive, and because I wouldn't expect it to have become worn in 8 years.   

   The most powerful strippers are those with methylene chloride.  That is a hazardous chemical and you should protect yourself while using it.  LOTS of ventilation.  It won't be harmful after use--just follow label directions carefully to neutralize and remove resifduals.   You can use "safe" strippers.  They will work but will take MUCH longer to work, require more applications, and more hand work. 

   After fully stripping, and cleaning off residuals you can start to get the right color.  I'd recommend a powdered water soluble dye to establish the base color.  I would then seal that with one coat of dewaxed shellac. Then you need to decide whether you want to fill the oak pores to achieve a smooth surface.  If so you will probably want to use a commercial oil based pore filler.  The filler should be tinted--I usually like to tint it a just little darker and browner than the base dye color.  That brings out the grain and gives the appearance of depth.  With oak you may need two coats to really fill the pores.  If you don't want to fill the pores I would use a coat of a pigment only stain, also a bit darker and browner, to emphasize the pores and bring depth.  Remember in either case to not leave filler or excess stain on the surface.  You only want it to color pores leaving the rest only colored to a minor extent. 

   For the top coat, I would recommend an oil based varnish without polyurethane.  It would be easiest to apply by thinning to a wipe on consistency.  Waterlox Original/sealer is an excellent varnish.  Other good choices would be Pratt & Lambert 38 or Behlen Rockhard varnish.  The Waterlox comes thinned to use as a wiping varnish.  The others would need substantial thinning.  While you could brush on the varnishes I would particularly recommend against that if you decide to not fill pores.  The heavier viscosity varnish leaves funny looking dimples around the pores while the thinned varnish just flows out into them. 

2. 
   Gretchen | Aug 15, 2005 05:31am | #4

   Use a stripper and use mineral spirits to remove it. Otherwise you have to sand, sand , sand.  Stripping a clear finish should be a matter of hours to do.

   Use a nice 50/50 varnish/mineral spirits mix to reapply the finish.

    Gretchen

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 15, 2005 06:58pm | #5

   First, the Wookbench stores are still in business as far as I know.

   Which table do you have? Does it have parquet oak top or a long laminated top? Is it solid wood?

   I have refinished a number of solid oak tables. The first thing I do is take off the tabletop and put it on sawhorses outdoors. Get a good paint stripper. The more methylene chloride it contains, the better. Many of these tables were coated with two part conversion finish or a two part polyester finish. It takes a powerful stripper to remove these finishes Lay the stripper on thickly and let it work for half an hour. Use an old wide putty knife or one of the throwaway plastic ones to scrap off the gunk. You may have to apply the stripper a second time and work it in with a stiff plastic bristled scrubber. Again scrape off the stripper. Then go over it with 2/0 steel wood wetted with the stripper.

   At this point, I use a water rinsable paint stripper so I just take the hose to it and using the stiff scrub brush, work with the grain and scrub out all the remaining gunk from the pores of the wood. Now let it fully dry and then assess the condition of the tabletop. If it has some black stains, these can be quickly removed with oxalic acid bleach. Once all the coloring is out, I use a belt sand with 100 grit and sand the whole top. Then I use a cabinet scraper to clean it up further. I finish sanding by using sanding with 180 grit paper working in the direction of the grain. Now you need to decide what you want to do. I have never stained an oak table--just finish them naturally. If you want to stain, go to it and get it on evenly being sure to move quickly so you can wipe the excess before it dries.

   Once it is stained, you can apply the clear coat of your choice. I have always using a wipe-on poly that I mix up myself. I tend to prefer ZAR interior fast dry polyurethane mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits.

   It is key to let the final coat of varnish cure for 3-4 weeks before really using the table. It takes that long for poly to fully cure, develop fully adhesion and scratch and heat resistance. Avoid any hot plates or cups on the table for that time.

   Howie.........
1. 
   Kevin | Aug 15, 2005 08:40pm | #7

   If Howie is right about the possibility of two-part conversion varnish then you'll definitely want the strongest stripper you can get your hands on. And even then you may well end up sanding some of it off.

   A couple years ago I had to refinish a door which Buffelen uses in it's tradeshow exhibits. It had been finished with two-part conversion varnish. I first tried "aircraft stripper" which is supposed to have the higher concentration of methylene chloride. It had almost no effect. So I decided to send it out to a furniture stripping company because they have the big vats and can soak the entire door in the stripper. They got most of it off. But, only on the flat surfaces which would have been easy to sand the old finish off. All of the detailed areas still had a lot of the old finish on them. Worst of all, the stripper discolored the wood and left it too dark for the color that the client wanted the door to be. We ended up having Buffelen ship us a brand new door and I finished that.

   I've stripped a lot of finishes over the years. Nothing was even as close to being as resistant to the stripping materials as two-part conversion varnish was. Hopefully that's not what you're dealing with.

2. 
   gabaghoul | Aug 16, 2005 05:20am | #8

   Didn't know Workbench was still around.  I tried to find them on the web but I had no luck and all the stores I knew had closed.  BTW, if you were still interested, the table is the long laminated top.  I don't think the finish could be a tough as you're thinking because normal wear and tear has stripped the table in some parts right down to the bare wood.

1. 
   Sancho | Aug 16, 2005 05:16pm | #9

   Strip it,

   then take a little stain and apply it in a spot where it cant be seen to test it. If you like the results then stain the rest of it. Then apply a top coat.

   I suggest either using a spray set up or purchasing a brush made for applying the top coat you desire. I personally like enduro coat w/b poly. http://www.compliantspraysystems.com they also sell a brush for their finish with a additive to make the poly more brush able.

   use a sealer sand, then a build coat, sand , then a top coat.   Buckism: Will show you the the way 

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 16, 2005 05:56pm | #10

   You could be right.  I moved from the NYC area about 2 years ago and there was one near where I used to shop.  It could be gone.

   I have refinished two tables like you have using the process I described.  They clean up very well.  I have never tried to stain the tables but that should not be a problem.  However, test first on the underside of the table to be sure you get what you are looking for.Howie.........

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 17, 2011 11:10am | #18

   For the record...

   Workbench filled for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 2003 intending to reorganize after closing some stores and eliminating a warehouse.  That plan fell through when vendors refused to extend further trade credit and the company was forced to liquidate. As might have been suspected, the company's situation had been weakened in the years before the filing by the interest expense engendered by a leveraged buyout in defence of a hostile takeover bid.  The news stories I read suggested that even some customer deposits were lost in the process.  To me that suggests that reorganization was a forelorn hope right from the beginning.

   I don't know that that says anything about what kind of finishes might have been on the furniture.  Vendors included both US and European furniture makers, so just about anything is possible. 

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 17, 2011 11:10am | #19

   For the record...

   Workbench filled for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 2003 intending to reorganize after closing some stores and eliminating a warehouse.  That plan fell through when vendors refused to extend further trade credit and the company was forced to liquidate. As might have been suspected, the company's situation had been weakened in the years before the filing by the interest expense engendered by a leveraged buyout in defence of a hostile takeover bid.  The news stories I read suggested that even some customer deposits were lost in the process.  To me that suggests that reorganization was a forelorn hope right from the beginning.

   I don't know that that says anything about what kind of finishes might have been on the furniture.  Vendors included both US and European furniture makers, so just about anything is possible. 

3. 
   CharlieStanford | Aug 15, 2005 07:20pm | #6

   Strip it, sand it, oil it, and wax it. 

   Use tinted Watco for your oil if you want to change the color.  You could use aniline dye stain if you want the best colorant possible.

    

4. 
   WillGeorge | Aug 16, 2005 08:46pm | #11

   (and abuse...we have 3 kids)

   Geeee.. what kids are for!

   EDIT:: I forgot.. Some of those citrus strippers work pretty well and pretty safe..

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/16/2005 1:49 pm ET by WillGeorge

5. 
   potatohead | Aug 19, 2005 08:01pm | #12

   I just refinished a rather old oak table top that had been beaten up badly over the years. I went through a process that first involved a water-based chemical stripper, a light sanding with a random orbit sander at a grit of 150, then an oil-based stain, then a coat of Zinser SealCoat (the best sealer I'ver ever found). Next, I filled in the pores with a pore filler that I colored with the oil-based stain (took 3 passes to get all the pores filled nicely), another coat of SealCoat, then onto two glaze coats with a gel stain of my final coloring, followed by another coat of SealCoat. Finally, three coats of Rockhard table top varnish (check on the brand name) and then rubbed it out with a good wax. The finish looks great and could probably withstand a tap dancer...or, just barely, the 3 kids that sit around it every night.

   I know it sounds like a lot of work and a long time but I found that if I didn't go through this extensive process, I couldn't get the color as I wanted it and couldn't get the finish to be as permanent as necessary. When I tried it with more conventional techniques of an oil-based stain and some wipe-on poly, all it took was one spill of Coke and no immediate wipe up and the top was once again in decline.

   J

6. 
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1. 
   swenson | Dec 16, 2011 09:13am | #14

   careful what you open

   Only a member for 3 hours and already he is sending a reply to a six year old  thread.  Could this be spam???  There is something about his use of English...   can't quite put my finger on it...

1. 
   Westchester | Dec 16, 2011 12:22pm | #16

   Spam

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   SA

1. 
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