I am so confused about the proper way to refinish four dining room chairs made of solid maple. I have stripped the chairs with #1 steel wool (mistake), which has left light ridge marks in the wood. Now what?
I would like to stain them a light blonde color, satin finish, without spraying. Is anyone willing to take me through the steps to achieve a really nice finish without polyurethane?
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
You say "without polyurethane". Did you plan on using another finish or just leave the wood bare?
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
I would like any (durable?) finish that looks professional, but without using plastic/polyurethane products.
I like Rich's advice below. Or above, as it may be. If you want to avoid poly, you're kind of limited in what else you can use. Shellac is a really nice finish and can be rather forgiving.
Personally, I like the look of maple that has yellowed a bit with age so my preference is to use something like Waterlox-a really thinned varnish-or Deft, which is a brushing lacquer. In my experience, lacquer yellows less than oil-based products. (I worked in a production shop for a spell, and we used plenty of maple. Everything was sprayed with lacquer. No idea what those pieces look like today.)
Someone should come along shortly and tell me that I am full of it and I don't know my rear anatomy from my elbow. As I said, it's my experience.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Coralia,
When you say you "stripped" the chairs with steel wool, did you use a chemical stripper?
I suggest you sand them, starting with 180 grit, finish with 220. Maple is naturally a light blonde wood. I dislike any tint to the maple or any finish that itself yellows or allows the underlying maple to yellow. Maple which has yellowed (as opposed to its natural blonde appearance) is very ugly.
Any oil-based finish such as varnish, or an oil such as linseed, or nitrocellulose lacquer will allow maple to yellow and will itself yellow.
I recommend finishing the chairs with ultra blonde shellac. It will impart no additional color and will not yellow. Use a 1 lb cut as a sanding sealer coat. It will raise the grain, which should be lightly sanded with 320. Then several more 1 lb or 2 lb cut applications. I level sand between coats, most people don't. After 3 applications, sand gently but completely with 320 grit, then 4-0 steel wool will give you a beautiful, soft satin surface.
Lots of us give advice about shellac finishing here. If you have questions about any aspect of using it, ask away, you'll get more responses than you would believe.
Rich
Thank you for your quick reply. yes, I used a chemical stripper. I like the idea of leaving maple natural. I have been told that varnishes and lacquers are difficult to apply with a brush Is that so? Also, if I use lacquer, does that mean I have to give them several coats before I apply shellac? If I decide to go for a light wheat color, do I need to treat the wood differently to get an even stain For example, the arms of the chair have the grain going in two different directions.
P.S. What does "1 lb cut as a sanding sealer coat" mean????? And, perhaps if you are not bored with these questions, you can give advise on using shellac? many thanks. coralia
coralia,
I believe Rich is suggesting that you use shellac as the only finish, not as a topcoat over something else.
A 1 lb. cut is a term describing the strength of the shellac mix. As in 1 lb. of shellac mixed with 1 gallon of denatured alcohol. For smaller quantities you just have to do the math. For example, 4 quarts in a gallon means 4 oz. of shellac in a quart of DNA= 1 lb. cut.
I don't think varnish is hard to apply with a brush if you use the proper technique. Laquer can be because it dries so fast. Shellac can be hard to apply with a brush for the same reasons, but there are many different ways to apply it. Blonde shellac will probably give you something close to a light wheat color. There are many different grades (colors) of shellac available
Ask as many questions as you like, you'll get plenty of information. Some of it will even be good! :-)
Rob
Aha! He took the bait, the hook is set and now I'm going to reel him in!
coralia,
As you're going to find out from the responses that follow here, shellac is the finest finish in existence.
Lacquer is available mostly in spraying versions, but there are brushing versions which have chemical retarders to delay the evaporation of the lacquer solvents and vehicles. Otherwise, it would be much too hard to brush. At any rate, shellac is generally used as an undercoat sealer for lacquer top coats. It is not applied over lacquer.
The only lacquer commonly available for brushing is nitrocellulose, which as I already mentioned will yellow maple, so I don't recommend that.
A "one pound cut" refers to the concentration of a shellac solution. Shellac is prepared by disolving dry flakes in alcohol (most commonly in denatured alcohol). One pound of shellac disolved in one gallon of alcohol is a "One Pound Cut." Two lbs shellac in 1 gal alcohol is a 2 lb cut. Any other ratios also pertain. 4 oz shellac in a qt of alcohol is a "One Pount Cut," also abbreviated, "1# cut."
Shellac is not only a wonderful, durable, beautiful final finish, it is the best thing to put on a wood like maple before applying a dye or stain. Maple often has a blotchy look when stained. A dilute cut (1/2# cut or 1# cut) partially seals the wood, allowing a more even coloring, especially where different kinds of grain are visible.
All finishes take some skill to brush on. Any one can learn to do it with varnishes, shellac, lacquers, etc. Most finishes are easier to brush the more dilute they are. Shellac is no exception and a 1# cut, or an even even thinner solution is very easy to apply.
Many workers mix their own shellac from dry flakes and denatured alcohol (I do). Shellac is available commercially, already in solution. Zinsser makes a product called Bullseye which is a 3 # cut of amber shellac that contains the natural wax that is a part of shellac. They also make a product called SealCoat which is a 2# cut of a much lighter, blonde shellac that has been dewaxed. From its label, one would conclude that Sealcoat is just an undercoat for other finishes. Nothing of the kind is true. It's an excellent, complete finishing product from sanding sealer coat to final top coat. It would make your unstained maple look great. Or you could apply it, diluted with an equal amount of alcohol as sanding sealer, then apply stain, then several more coats at full strength for the top coats.
Rich
Edited 2/26/2007 1:35 pm ET by Rich14
Coralia,
Brushing on varnish/poly/lacquer/ shellac really isn't all that difficult. Using a high quality china bristle brush, letting the finish "flow" off the brush, lightly tipping into the previously worked area, and working at a quick pace is basically all that's required. Think of it as "laying down" the finish, not "painting" it on....
Even super blond shellac will eventually yellow over time. The only film finishes that don't, that I'm aware of, are the acrylic polys.
For me, durability of the finish has a very high priority. Lacquer is most certainly durable and because it's a reactive finish, relatively easy to repair. Shellac isn't near as durable but, being a reactive finish as well, is very easy to repair. If you do use lacquer, there would be no point in a shellac top coat....
The 1# cut for as a sealer, refers to the thinning proportion. In this case 3 pints to 1 quart of shellac or in simpler terms 2/3 to 1. Personally, I believe that using a 1# cut as a "sanding sealer" especially on Maple is an unnecessary step. However, if you are going to stain it will help in controlling stain absorption rates, particularly where there is end grain as on the arms that you mention.
And....Don't be too quick to discount the polys. A number of years back, I posted a primer of sorts when Min-Wax Wipe On Poly first hit the market. It is a very durable product, easy to apply, and when the satin is used does give a truly hand rubbed look. Only caution here, is that the recommended 4 coats should be upped to 6 and don't use a tack cloth; it's residue will react with the finish. It does have an amber tint, however....
You may want to bump around at Homesteadfinishing.com, not a bad place to go if you're new to finishing and not into books. FWIW.
Dano
"Form and Function are One" - Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 2/26/2007 2:12 pm ET by Dano
Dano,
Sorry - a few disagreements. Both shellac and lacquer are evaporative finishes, not reactive. Varnish and oils are reactive finishes.
Shellac is about as durable as nitrocellulose lacquer (that is, very durable). CAB-Acryllic lacquer is slightly more so, catalyzed lacquers even more so. But I don't think they are germaine here. Of course, we can get into the whole thorny issue of whether shellac is a suitable finish because it might get subjected to alcohol or water. That also is probably not an issue in this discussion. Suffice to say all lacquers are more resistant to such "problems"
Shellac will not yellow.
Rich
Edited 2/26/2007 2:27 pm ET by Rich14
Rich
I have been using hand applied shellac finishes for thir..many years..and I have never been unhappy with the results, ever. It is long lasting and stays beautiful, developing a warmth that is best described in sonnet form. No joke, a great finish.
As far reactive, evaporative, or simply the fact that it is a natural - made - by - mother - nature product, I don't really give a darn. I like it. I wonder what Frenchy would say? JL
He must be off having a good time somewhere. I fully expected to read a treatise on shellac by now.
Frenchy, sign in, please.
Rich
If he didn't chime in, then he didn't see the string. :-) JL
Rich,
Thanks for pointing out the error, major brain fart......Been happin' a lot lately......
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank Lloyd Wright
To Alls you All ,
Just a quick note on yellowing . Some Lacquers and other finishes are called water white or Krystal clear and are formulated so they don't yellow ,, true .
However even with UV inhibitors as is sometimes the case there is nothing to completely prevent the wood from yellowing to my knowledge .So beware .
dusty
Rich
Shellac - the magic word on this forum for hand applied finishes. It is the best advise you could have given.
I would also lightly sand the finished shellac with 320 finishing paper, then apply linseed oil with a 4-0 steel wool pad, wiping it dry with a soft cloth. Smooth as a baby's bottom! (beware of spontaneous combustion of rags and steel wool - not you Rich - I know you know - this is for coralia, who may or may not know) JL
Coralia, I scanned through the responses quickly and didn't notice a source posted for shellacs tht might not be at the big box stores. Jeff Jewitt's Homestead Finishing is an excellent resource on shellac. Here's his shellac products page, and here's his article explaining shellac and it's advantages and applications.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
coralia,
Others have told you the real truth.
use shellac and you will absolutely love the results..
If you have bare wood here's all you need to do.
Go buy a quart of Zinssers bullseye shellac.. , clear! You can get it at Home Depot, Lowes, most hardware stores lot of paint stores..
While you are there pick up a gallon of denatured alcohol and a new paint brush.. (it's worth while buying a good one)
You're ready!
Now open that quart can up and give it a stir.. go ahead use the paint brush! shellac settles to the bottom of the can and you need to get it up.. It might take say 60 seconds.. 30 if you are lazy like me..
OK pour it into some container (one your brush will fit into easily) about a 1/4 of the way full.. a clean old coffee can, a washed out soup can, whatever.. Now fill it the rest of the way up with that denatured alcohol you bought..
Close is good enough..
You're ready to paint!
Here's the trick to getting a good run free flawless finish..
Are you ready?
Are you sure?
OK do it fast
I'm really serious about that! Fast! Carefull doesn't cut it!
If you get runs, drips, skipped areas, (holidays in painters parlance) ignore them. Honestly ignore them!
Do not go back over anything..
just let'er rip!
If that's not your nature get a 7 year old and do the Tom Sawyer trick..
In 15 minutes you'll be ready to sand..It's dry!
ER,.... I forgot to tell you when you're getting the paint buy one of those 3M sanding sponges. The yellow 220 grit ones.. (sorry)
OK when you sand.. it's strictly a lick and a promise sort of thing.. all you want to do is scuff off the nibs (those little bumpy spots that happen).. a light weak wristed scuffing is all that's called for..
Don't try to "fix" anything.. smooth is as good as it gets..
Now, again going Fast! put another layer of shellac on. This layer will melt right into the first layer and cover all those earlier goofs. a 1/2 hour from then feel it.. if it's smooth then put the last coat on.. if it still has nubs then sand those smooth and put the last coat on.
Do I really need to say it? Ah what the heck, FAST!
You're done.. oh you can do more if you want but for all practical purposes you are done..
let me know how you like it..
PS leave the brush dry out.. next time you shellac anything just soak the brush for a bit and it will soften up perfectly
only use that brush on shellac.. don't use a brush that has been used before with any other type of paint..
OK here's some sales pitch stuff.
you already take shellac to make you feel better!
every pill you take has a shellac coating and if it hurt you the drug companies wouldn't use it..
Denatured alcohol is the stuff that's in that nice glass of wine you'll drink in celebration tonight except it has 2% of something nasty so high school kids can't get a cheap drunk from the hardware store..
Shellac as a finish has been around for 5000 years and when you are finished you'll understand why
It's a deep shiney but not plasticy finish that all fine antique dealers swear by
frenchy,
C'mon. Don't hold back. How do you really feel about shellac!?
A gallon of denatured alcohol? A gallon? He's only finishing a chair!
He'll have to start other projects and buy a lot of shellac to use up all that alcoh . . . oh, I get it!
Rich14
Oops I meant to say a quart of shellac and a gallon of denatured alcohol..
OOPs I did say a quart and a gallon.. ;-)
now I'm really feelin' cocky! <G>
Edited 2/27/2007 2:27 pm ET by frenchy
Ok,
That figures out to about 573 chairs, give or take.
But they will have magnificent finish on them!
Rich
Hey Fenchy
Do you have shellac radar? So help me, and I have checked, every string that the word shellac appears in, you participate in.
You are the master shellacer!
Now, you do know that denatured alcohol is NOT FOR DRINKING! That is what single malt scotch whiskey and all the other stuff is for. I know that Americans are partial to a good bourbon, but ...stay off the denatured alcohol! :-) JL
jeanlou,
As I repeatedly say they put 2% of nasty stuff in it so high school kids don't get a cheap drunk.. I suppose I could go on about what will happen if you do drink the stuff but I try to keep things light hearted so novices will try it..
Yeh I was gonna let this one go but several people made comments so I went right into my sphell again.. IF I was smart I'd figure out how to clip and paste it or whatever it's called in computer speak so I wouldn't have to do my usual hunt and peck with every one..
We're not gonna tell ya how to copy and paste a "canned response" 'cause each time you tell it, it get's better!
Frenchy
Go to one of your posts that has the info. Highlight the text. Click with your right mouse button. Click copy with the left mouse button on the drop down menu, Go to the new post and right click.on the blank field. Chose and click paste with the left mouse button...voila.
Of course you will put in a custom preamble and a custom ending for each one so that Rich and I aren't disappointed. :-) JL
frenchy,
Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it!!!
Resist the urge at all cost.
I participate in another forum completely and totally unrelated to woodworking. A regular there posts his "Boilerscript" text response to topics that get a question 3-4 times a week (almost always by a novice to the field). He never fails to respond to these posts and his long "boilerplate" is absolutely predictable and boring as hell. Others "yell" at him to stop, but he never does
Sure it's "easy" to copy and paste. Sure it takes some time to personally respond to a question, but that's what makes this a good forum.
It's completely different to keep a copy of a link to a previous thread and refer someone to that. The result is further discussion and sharing in the current thread.
Rich
I just re-read Rich14 comments (34726.8 ) - this answers some of my questions. Thanks Rich!
Boshoff,
Are you going to be "filling" the white oak pores before finishing? Most people do, but that's a personal choice, you can do it either way. White oak is an open-pored wood, not as open as red oak, but many like to fill it to create a smooth surface. (I leave it open, but that's just me)
If yes, and if you use silex filler stained with a medium to dark brown dye (a popular choice, highly recommended by me!), you'll want to use a 1/2# or 1# shellac cut as a sanding sealer, after dyeing/staining the oak.
The sanding sealer coat prevents the dark filler from staining the wood, but allows it to be pushed into the pores.
The sequence is, final sand, dye/stain, sanding sealer coat, gently level the raised grain with 320 grit paper, scrub on the filler into the pores with a short bristle brush such as a fingernail brush or a shoe polish applicator or a scrub brush, allow to partially dry (leather-looking appearance), rub /scrape excess filler off with burlap or other coarse rags/plastic scraper until surface is clean and dry, apply shellac top coats.
Rich
Edited 2/28/2007 3:11 pm ET by Rich14
Edited 2/28/2007 3:13 pm ET by Rich14
Rich14,
Thanks for all the input - very good stuff! So far I've built a changing table and I'm almost done with a crib - both white oak. I used white oak because its cheap - but to be honest I can't stand the stuff! This is definitely an open pore wood and tear-out is almost inevitable, not to mention the smell is not my favorite aroma. I just bought 200 bf of cherry, 50 of blk walnut and another 100 of gen mahog - I hope those will be a little more fun to work with - I think I'm just white oaked out!!! :)
I ran into staining problems with the changing table - for a first ww project it came out okay but in some areas the colonial maple stain turned sections of the white oak too orange - we just lived with it and I put a coat of polyurethane (pics attached). I'm not sure what I'll do this time - I really like the whole natural look - but in this case I had to match a dresser in the baby room. Just for fun I may follow your fill-the-pores finishing procedure for the chest - the whole leather look sounds great to me.
Thanks again!
Bosh,
Bosh,
Looks great. At least in the pictures. White oak is good stuff. Sorry your expereinces have soured you on it. But the other stock you now have is great.
You misunderstood about the "leather look." That's what the filler looks like a short time after you apply it to the wood, as the surface of the wet filler layer partially dries. Then you scrub it completely off the wood surface, leaving only the tiny residual amount trapped in the pores.
Rich
Agghh - I see. I must be on overload today. I'll have to play around a bit - never knew there was so much to finishing. I just bough Jeff Jewitt's Finishing book...I have some serious reading to do.
Thanks for the help!
Frenchy - (and All),
I hope coralia doesn't mind my asking some questions on his thread.
I've never used shellac before - but I've been wanting to give it a go. I'm doing a toy chest out of white oak - I need to stain it to match some preexisting furniture - my wife wants something called "Colonial Maple" stain on the chest. I've got a couple questions - I'm really green when it comes to finishing so any guidance would be greatly accepted and appreciated!
Is shellac used as a final coat - will there be problems staining the chest and than applying shellac?
Any problems using Zinssers bullseye shellac on white oak or is shellac good to use with all wood?
I picked up some orange shellac flakes at my local Woodcraft - I wonder how the orange would mess up the color?
4oz of shellac flakes to 1 quart of denatured alcohol should be enough for the chest?
Thanks in advance!
Boshoff,
Boshoff,
"Is shellac used as a final coat - will there be problems staining the chest and than applying shellac?"
Yes! No
"Any problems using Zinssers bullseye shellac on white oak or is shellac good to use with all wood?"
No problems at all. Shellac can be used over any wood. In fact, it is compatible with woods that reject other finishes. For instance, oil-based finishes are rejected by waxy/oily woods such as cocobolo. Shellac has no problem with such tropical hardwoods.
"I picked up some orange shellac flakes at my local Woodcraft - I wonder how the orange would mess up the color? "
Mix up some in alcohol and try it on a scrap stained/dyed the same as your project. That's the only way to tell. Others can only give you their opinions. Finishing/dyeing/staining is highly personal.
"4oz of shellac flakes to 1 quart of denatured alcohol should be enough for the chest?"
Probably. If not, mix up some more - you'll know exactly how much more you'll need at that point. Or you can buy a can of Zinsser's Bullseye or Sealcoat to finish the job.
Rich
Boshoff,
At the request of others I will keep my answers short.. :_)
Yes it's an excellant finish coat
I'd use zinsser's bulls eye over grinding my own flakes..
I'd use even more denatured alcohol.
That's me I like it thin to keep runs and drips at bay. (I know it sounds wrong but it works trust me..)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled