Sorry this is a bit long.
I recently received a call from a gentleman (caller ID read as some financial company) who happened to see my promotional brochure at a local wood-supply store bulletin board (there many posted). I couldn’t completely understand his words since he had an accent (Said he’s ethnically Indian, but his name sounded Pakistani). Anyway he claimed he was an avid collector of wood (huh?), admirer of hand-made furniture, and has stacks of wood like cherry and figured maple in his garage. Little perplexed, I asked if he was a woodworker, and he replied “no.” He said he had been collecting wood for awhile and wanted a furniture maker to create original designs using his materials. He claimed that he had a piece of furniture designed/built by a woodworker who was represented by a large local woodworkers’ gallery. He wanted additional furniture built by this woodworker, but the woodworker got extremely busy and wasn’t able to build anything for him.
We talked little about what he was interested in, and he wanted what amounted to an entire house worth of furniture. He kept insisting his wood had to be used. In my head I’m thinking this could be an great opportunity or a potential problem. He asked me about what I charged for one of the pieces from the brochure and I gave him a rough price. He said “is material about 60% of the cost?” I said “it’s more like 10-25%, depending on the wood. And I like to spend good amount of time hand selecting the wood.” I also added that furniture building involves more than just “construction.” Design time — including consultation and design changes — can add to the price. I don’t have a website yet, so I sent him reduced images (just in case) of some of my designs. He was somewhat aggressive about what he wanted and how soon I could meet him and start on such an ambitious project, even though he said he wasn’t in a hurry.
Later I called the gallery to verify his claim that he had in fact worked with a woodworker represented by the gallery under good terms, but the owner said she’s never heard of him. Because of so many red flags were going up, I later emailed him rejecting his request for commission.
So my logic thinks: he likes hand-made furniture, but feels woodworkers markup their wood prices so much that he can save ton of money by buying it himself or…
My paranoid self thinks: he wants to create a furniture import business (or has relatives doing it) using original designs as prototype, have them built in South Asia, and import them into U.S. to create a niche market in line with high-end furniture makers like Berkeley Mills and Green Design. Since I’ve known people who’ve started dotcom businesses importing hand-crafted goods from countries like Bangladesh, it’s somewhat plausible that this could happen.
This was a very odd situation. Has anyone run into anything like this? Thanks
Newm.
Replies
I agree the whole thing has a fishy smell to it.
But because it IS so wierd, I don't think I would have pulled the trigger quite so quickly; I'd be dying of curiosity to find out what this guy's game really is.
I'm not exactly sure what his intentions were, but i just didn't want to get involved in anything that could potentially bring me lot of grief.
Just one question...What would happen if you built a bunch of pieces for the guy, using his wood, and he decided not to pay you? Would he just sue you for his "wood" back?This kind of situation is actually very similar to what I occasionally run into in my line of work (as a financial consultant). I speak with someone quite often who is either just trying to pick my brain for ideas, wants me to do a financial plan for them (they of course have millions of dollars just waiting to move over if they like what I come up with) or tells me that they have had accounts with six firms, sued four of them and what could I do for them? Sorry, I don't need your account that bad, and I don't need to waste my time. I don't do anything without taking a look at all the paperwork first.I'd check out the wood this guy has...but not committ to anything.
Yeah I'd think the guy was a little bit flaky too. I'd really have to be convinced otherwise to wast any time meeting him. I'd also be kind of afraid of going over to his house and meeting him. Who knows maybe he's a psycho or something.
I can't say he's a psycho... I just had a really bad vibe.This is just a notice to anyone living in Seattle.
One thing he doesn't seem to realize is the fact that, while a piece of wood may look great, it might not be suitable for certain uses in furniture. Cosmetically great, but might be structurally unsound. He sounds flakey, but if he was really going for prototypes, he could have had the pieces made of MDF or poplar and then painted to look like whatever wood suited him.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I'll bet this is one of those scams where the guy eventually says. Ok why don't' you send me x amount of dollars and I'll send you all the wood. Logic being it will be his security as to you building the furniture. Then you supposedly settle up as you build it. Guess what You never see the wood or the money. These things are going around in all different kinds of ways.
:::for every woodworker lost we lose a library
Thanks for your opinions. It's good to get other people's perspective on the matter.
Thru bitter experience I've learned to listen to that little voice in the back of my mind. As with everyone, it's usually accurate.
I might have been curious enough though, to meet with him and figure out what the real deal was. The scam of cheap reproductions is a real possibility. I don't know the actual manufacturing site, but the Pottery Barn has great designs built from Phillipine Mahogany, although the use the classier "Meranti" name. Someone asked me if I could make identical units, but I turned that one down.
I haven't run into your exact situation (I doubt anyone else has, it is so unusual), but I have had considerable experience working with (1) persons from different cultures, and (2) persons who don't understand furniture building.
If the guy was local, I would have been intrigued enough to see what he had collected before I turned it down. You never know what you'll find out there; perhaps the cultural difference made it sound too weird, when it may have been an OK job. It's really a question of do you want to spend the time to find out, or if your busy enough you don't have to.
I think you jumped the gun alittle bit. Seems like this may have given you an opportunity to produce some pieces and make some money. Why not listen to what he had to say, tell him how you want it to work and go from there. I don't see where you were investing more than a little time with the protentcial to find a client?
I know that most of us have a default setting about people from the Mid East, but you could still be in control of the situation.
Bear
Here's an e-mail I received a few weeks ago:
"We are remodeling a "new"home in __________, FL and we are planning a home office to cover about 10-12 feet of wall space, including lateral files, a peninsula desk, computer & printer storage, etc. with hutches above (mostly with doors to hide the files, books, etc. Our interior design is a formal Tommy Bahama style, with quite a bit of marble and granite. Our tastes are mostly traditional and since this office area will be open to the entry area, it needs to be in keeping with the interior designs. We do not want a dark wood such as cherry or mahogany, but would prefer a shade of oak or even maple in a light nutmeg finish - nothing too light...something in between. Any interest? We have a quote from Loew's in the vicinity of $13,000 plus installation. We can buy retail home office furniture for much less - what are your thoughts?"
This is part of my response:
"Thank you for contacting me regarding your project. This is the type of commission I like to do, but I don’t think I can get close to Lowe’s in total cost. The primary reason is their use of factory-produced cabinetry allows them to keep costs down. While their finished product looks great, it incorporates non-wood products that look fine but reduce costs. On the solid wood portions of their cabinetry such as panel doors, factory processes are similar to those I would use, but faster because of the machinery involved."
Within the span of one month, I was contacted by three people (one of them a neighbor) who had quotes from Lowe's for cabinet work. All three quotes were $13,000. All three people expected me to be able to do the project for much less. None of them have any concept of what 'custom furniture' means.
Fortunately, I don't build things for a living, so I have the option to say, "No", moreso than some folks. I hope to sell some of my pieces down the road a bit, but am content building inventory for now. There are those among us who believe they can compete with furniture store prices; if they can, more power to them, but they're leaving a lot on the table. If I can't make a few bucks on a project, I have no problem saying no.
One thing I learned from dealing with one 'friend' is not to give the client a copy of even so much as a conceptual drawing without money changing hands. I've heard the same advice from others on this Forum. If someone wants me to design something for them and then take the data elsewhere to get it built, that's fine if they want to pay me a fair price for the design.
In the case of your potential customer who has a stock of wood, I'd go so far as to take a look at the stock and discuss in greater detail what his expectations are. It might be a good opportunity. If it's not, then listen to the little voice inside your head and don't hesitate to say no.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I have a friend.. my best friend, actually, who wanted me to build a small chest of drawers for him to keep his collection of Harley t-shirts and sweatshirts.
He wanted me to meet him at an unpainted furniture store where he had seen exactly what he wanted.
My friend thought I could make it for less if he supplied the materials.
The store wanted $120 for the chest.
End of story.
Hey Newhuh,
I think you made the right call. Sometimes we get that "gut feeling" that something is not as it seems. And I gotta tell ya I'm going with my gut before I "over listen" to "reason".
So what if you lost a commission. You may make your living at it, doesn't mean you have to take anything that comes along. Yes, sometimes you have to do things you don't like doing, to keep the light bill paid. Not things that are gonna make your life a wreck.
You did the right thing.
Good luck.
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
Newhuh ,
Years ago , a bucks up retired fellow contacted me in regards to a kitchen cabinet job . I really needed the job and the money . I went and looked at the kitchen , drew up a sketch and a plan for myself to bid off of . I even gave him a firm bid . But the island his wife wanted was a bit too large for the room , and on paper left less of a walkway then what I know to be adequate . All the while the fellow told me stories how he screwed this guy or wam boozled that guy and he always seemed to end up on top . My antennas went up . I did not have a warm fuzzy feeling about this guy or the job . I made the decision to pass on his job , and told him so , he took a wad of cash out of his pocket and asked " don't you need the money ? " he must have smelled the fact that I did . I graciously said I did not feel comfortable with the layout and if it was wrong now it would still be wrong in years to come and it would be a reflection of me that I did not want . Well , he found another shop to build his cabinets and what I heard from the general contractor was the space around the island was too tight and the cabinet maker had to remove and re build and replace the offending units . Now when I feel uncomfortable or otherwise don't want a particular job I simply tell them , I just had several bids come in and am now covered up with work and un able to get to the job , sorry I can't help you . The advice given in above posts to listen and trust your inner voice and instincts is the best way to avoid problems with clients usually . It is quite possible your man is on the level , if I needed the work I would at least check it out and then decide . I built several pieces of furniture for a wonderful woman whose husband traveled around the world and collected lumber where ever he found something he liked . That particular commission led to the purchase of our first house and over 20 years of friendship with a person that turned out be like a fairy Godmother to my family , so you never really know until you see for yourself .
good luck dusty
You have excellent radar and self-preservation instincts. Sounds like a big scam!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
One thing I can tell you from experience is that there are certain cultures in which it is considered normal to agree a price then renogiate it when the product is delivered.
I'm familiar with this culture...they're called restauranteurs!
trust yer gut. Even if you are wrong, you'll be onto other things with better "karma" before you know it. Accept it and the Karma ain't gonna be right no-how, you'll always be in the "I wish I never" mode, and it will affect your work.
Every time my gut says no, and I do it anyway (like for friends), I end up unhappy.
But after many years with periodic incursions of work accepted despite the gut "no" feeling, the bright side is that jobs that go south only end up making yu appreciate all the honest forthright and friendly customers even more.
Without the bad clients, how could we even begin to define or appreciate the good ones.
Eric in Calgary
It's almost certainly a scam, of the Nigerian variety. You either get asked for bank details so money can be transferred (but it's your money, not his, one soon discovers - there are some great stories about this scam!), or you get asked to pay for something that never gets delivered (the timber in this case).
However, you can't get sucked into these scams by mistake. I'd have beenn tempted to ask to go look. If it falls apart then, it's a scam.
That's one of the fun things about this business. Every now and again you luck onto something magic!
Malcolm
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 3/28/2005 4:10 am ET by kiwimac
It sounds like you raised some flags as soon as you heard the accent. Your conclusions of what he may be trying to do definitely back that up. Lighten up, we are all foreigners.
I would have stayed with it a little bit longer and possibly have tried to arrange to meet him, and to look at the wood he had. Until you commit to a job, you aren't taking a financial risk. People who want custom furniture, and have the money to pay for it, are very uncommon in the modern world, and often a bit eccentric, but they are worth cultivating.
The scenario you considered, that he would buy the original piece from you and have it reproduced in Asia is highly unlikely. All he would need is a photograph of your work to send overseas and it presumes that your work is very unique and he couldn't find readily available designs that would be worth reproducing.
Also he hasn't even seen your work yet, so why would he be so interested in stealing the designs?
John W.
Consumers are often advised to obtain references from past clients before awarding a contract or a commission.
There is nothing wrong with the idea of the contractor obtaining references or credit checks before accepting a contract. If the references don't gel, walking away from a smelly deal is the only option.
Regards from Africa.
Pine
Johannesburg South Africa
I want to clarify that I didn’t write this discussion to bash people of certain ethnicity or accuse someone of being crazy. I myself am a Korean. I’ve traveled to part of Middle East. I’ve had numerous friends from Central Asia when I lived in New York City. As I mentioned before, the two friends from Bangladesh started an online site based in New York selling expensive craft ware from their native country and beyond. And while my situation as a craft-furniture designer/maker shouldn’t warrant any concerns, knock-off items from foreign countries do affect product designers. I worked as an industrial designer for few years after graduate school and the subject of design patent (can be difficult to enforce) always came up.Years ago, before industrial design, I worked as a full-time graphic artist and did freelance work to supplement my income. I have memories of doing really neat things -- and few projects that I wish I’d never taken on. From the extreme pain-in-the-rear clients, to a one-week job that took three months, to clients reluctant to pay, and the constant niggling over small costs. I had to turn down few interesting jobs because some of these seemingly “quick-and-easy” work took up too much of my evenings and weekends. Anyway, my communication with the gentleman was awkward from the beginning. While I’m generally patient and flexible with clients, I don’t appreciate people who interrupt or contradict me when I’m explaining things to people. He asked me “Do you make dining table? It’s easy?” I said it could be, but depends on the complexity of the design... Then before I can say anything, he said “No it’s easy to make!” That was pretty much the tone of the phone conversation. I sent him images of my work and before I can tell him my schedule, he’d already set up an appointment date.While it’s not unusual for people to want something built with stash of wood sitting around, it’s unusual for someone to purchase wood in large quantities from a local wood store, and continually buy them (he was at the wood store to buy wood when he saw my brochure) for no other reason than to think that he can save a bundle of money if he bought the material himself. His collection included some figured maple, various domestic hardwood and what I believe he said was “steamed cherry.” His unverifiable claim that he had worked with a woodworker who was represented by a gallery in the past, just got me suspicious. If the woodworker had worked with him before, why would he turn down such a huge commission? If I did in fact pull out of a potentially great job... it’s my loss. However my premature decision was made based on my past experience and the conversation with him over the phone and email. While I don’t mind working long hours and discounting for multiple projects, this would’ve been an ambitious job and I would’ve had to push aside any new clients. Plus I don’t like the idea of undermining the craft furniture industry in my area by charging fees far below market rate.
A bad deal is a bad deal, no matter where it comes from. It looks like almost everyone agrees, go with your gut feeling. Most of the time you'll come out ahead.
Now that I read more of his comments, this guy was clearly a jerk - and believe me, he would have only gotten worse further down the line.
When you've been doing what you do for a long time, as you have, you develop a pretty accurate sense of whether a prospect will be a good customer, a bad customer, or not a customer at all. You were right to go with your gut feeling.
Your instinct is correct. Ive been scamed before different scam but its all about someone trying to get by cheap. Funny, I scammed by a "friend" of the wifes and her daughter.
Im a amerture w/w so I got flattered cuz they liked some display cabs I built. Asked me to build one for them..Sure I said..I did it for cost.
Then they wanted another then another with some changes .
I finally figured out they were selling them. So I quit doing anything for people for cost.
I did some work for the wifes cousin, he's a house painter so we exchanged labor.
they had a party and I was there..His wife has some uppity relatives. One saw my work and liked it.
Told me they bought a house and needed some book cases made for their home office...They told me they wanted it nice ect and couldnt find what they wanted in any of the stores ect.rememebr these uppity people acted like they were Howard hughes..all kinds of money (attitude)
So after the previously mentioned scam I developed a canned response.....
I told her $450 minimum plus materials.
Well she got a look on her face and well I guess IKEA was good enough for them after all :>).
Everyone wants something for nothing. For some reason I guess its the furniture industry making cheap furniture overseas or people not knowing particle board with wood veneer from quality solid wood construction . They look at something by its finished look not by its quality....
Anyway you did right.....
Theres a lot of sleaze balls out there with a "story'
Oh yea the wifes friend came over afer I finished my kitchen..loved it (solid hickory) with birtch ply boxes, and raised panel end panels solid hickory as well.
She kept telling us how much money her new husband has ect then asked me if I could/ would build a kitched for her.....
I told her with the same footprint they have now.... I would guesstimate 8-10K and up...... well never asked me again and you know I havent seen her inna while either..:>)Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Everyone wants something for nothing..
I do it all the time.. But they are my friends? LOL..
I do it but gettin tired of being nice all the time!
Its funny ya know as long as its a #### for tat thing I dont mind at all..do what ever anyone wants..but when its not and its one way..anymore friend or not my time is just as important as theirs....
for some reason folks think that they dont have to help you out or the money to pay you fo what your worth but they have the time and money to pay strangers or go and have fun while they expect you to work for them...for free.....Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"I finally figured out they were selling them. So I quit doing anything for people for cost."Man, that is really cruel... I can't believe friends would take advantage of such a good situation. I run into lot of people needing furniture, and most quiet down when I tell them my price. I don't mean to shock them, but I have to educate them about what's involved in hand-made furniture. I also inform them about the hours required to design an original piece and the labor required to construct it. They could then add up the hours and hopefully realize I don't make a lot of money. One thing I didn't tell about the gentleman in my original thread was that since I don't mark up lumber, it would've been slightly cheaper if I bought it myself since I get professional rates at the woodstore. Discount isn't much, but it does help when purchased in large quantities. Besides even if this guy had the lumber, I'd have to drive over to his house, sort through the pile and haul it back to my place. There's really no easy way around this. People who want goods personally tailored for them simply have to pay for it.
you got that right. its funny ya know most people wont work for minimum wage, but when you add up the hours, tooling, shop cost ect for the most simple project.. thats what a lot of people expect to pay.
Its like going to a lawyer and telling him that since he only spent 10 minutes examining me I should only pay him at 25 bucks a hour..2 dollars fifty cents.... what doo you think the Dr would say....
some guy working as accountant who would spend 60k on a car, 15k on a home entertainment system then would expect someone to build him a center for peanuts...
nah Im done with them..thats why I give them my basic 450 min plus materials. Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Your problem is you are going to lawyers and thinking they are Dr.Bear
He'd charge me for a double consultation...:>)Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I think you're right on by trusting your inner voice. If you had to take the job I would do no work without detailing what costs will be to the client and go over it until he understands and signs something stating the same. I would also get a non-refundable deposit-make this understood too. Having his wood supply is not enough.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
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