I am having trouble finding a reliable vehicle for my small cabinet shop. Can’t spend much < 5000 and I don’t haul a lot of weight or whole kitchens of cabinets. I have been using Dodge Grand Caravans but I have gone through two of them with lots of 500-1000 repairs. Are there any minivan sized vehicles that are reliable that can carry sheet goods?
thanks
Dave Raynalds
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Replies
Hi Dave I have a 99 Honda Odessy with 102k miles and it still runs well. Other than normal ware and tear (breaks and tires, timing belt at 90k miles) I have had no problems. With the rear seat folded flat and the middle seats removed I can haul a 4x8 sheet of ply with the rear door closed. Anyway I have had Cryslers in the past and I think the Honda is 3 times the vehicle. You might also consider a used full sized van.
Troy
Thanks Troy. I was under the impression that an Odessey or a Seinna couldn't hold a 4x8' piece of plywood. Do all years of Odesseys do this?
Dave.
Anything that is 99 or newer should do it I know that they changed body slightly a few years ago but I think they made it bigger.Troy
Almost forgot I do not know about the Toyota.Troy
Thanks for the info Troy.
Dave Rda
I own a Toyota Sienna, and I have hauled plywood in it, with the rear seats folded down and the middle row removed. This only applies to the 2004 and newer models; I don't know about 2003 and older.
Additionally, some thoughts on used minivans: Generally, these are purchased by parents of busy kids, or by fleet companies. Both groups are hard on cars. If this is a business purchase, meaning that you lose money when your vehicle is in the shop, you are probably better off buying new. On the average, most newer minivans are well-made and will all probably last over 100K miles, some of the older models have significant drivetrain and electrical maintenance problems.
Dave,
I have a '97 GMC Suburban 1500 that I use for hauling sheet goods as well as delivering cabinets/furniture. I leave the third row seat out permanently... have carried 25 sheets of 3/4" Maple Plywood without a hiccup.
Picked her up for $2250 a couple of years ago, all she does is run. I love that truck.
The cheapest way to haul sheetgoods and other oversized stuff is a trailer. Maybe not the best if used daily but fine if less.
Do you use a trailer. What do you haul it with? How big is it? How often do you use it?
Dave
I have a 6x10 utility trailer. View ImageI use it only about twice a month for sheet goods and many other things that don't fit in my Jeep GC. It was about $1k new, and it was a great choice versus a full sized SUV.
davidraynalds,
I suspect that you're going about this the wrong way..
Let me ask you a few questions.
when do you plan on retireing or quitting the business?
Do you like sudden unexpected expenses or would you rather be able to determine a accurite working budget?
Did you pay a lot of income taxes last year (by a lot I mean in relation to your income)?
If the first answer is more than 10 years away, if the second answer is no, you hate unexpected expenses and the third answer is over 10% then you need to adjust your thinking to todays real world..
Buying used vehicles to make money is foolish.. Nobody sells a used vehicle because they think it's in good shape and going to last them a long while yet.. they buy new vehicles because they've gotten the most out of their old one they figure they can get..
You're betting they are wrong! remember the cardinal rule of Vegas, the house always wins!
Not only that but at the price point you're buying the odds really are stacked against you..
It doesn't matter what brand or year at that price point, you are buying others worn out trouble!
There are rare exceptions and people do win the lottery.. but most people don't.. you have told us that you are like most people..
Do yourself a favor. Go on the internet and look at new vehicles that will do the job and still have a good consumer reports record..
If you don't buy Consumer Reports go to the public library and ask for their back issues..
OK back to your computer..
Find out what they sell to the dealer for and start Emailing dealers with your needs.. ask for their best price.. be brutal. Look for the lowest price of what you want.. (don't accept demo's or anything but new Not for ego reasons but purely for economic reasons , more later)
Don't trade in yours. Sell it outright yourself.. you'll get much, much, more and make the deal simpler..
Remember so far you haven't bought anything! All you are doing is getting information..
Let's assume that a new one is $25,000 with taxes and licence etc.. or 5 times your normal price point.. If the new one lasts 5 times as long you're just breaking even.. Not really a good deal yet..
Untill you figure in the maintinace..
You said there were plenty of $500. and $1000 repairs.. add up what you've spent over the last ten years.. and divide by ten to get an annual maintinance budget..
Once you look at that number in the cold light of day the new is beginning to look better isn't it?
If you've followed me thus far, next time I'll tell you ways to make the purchase of that happen even if you feel that you can't afford it.
NO magic or cheating.. just use approaches that big business uses all of the time..
Frenchy,
I respectfully disagree with the recommendation to purchase new.
Using the example given, even if Dave's average annual repair/maint costs were $2000 on a used vehicle vs. zero on a new vehicle, there are other costs associated with buying new that I think outweigh the cost of buying used.
Increased cost of insurance is one cost and increased cost of debt service (assuming debt) is another. Depreciation on a $25,000 vehicle over five years will eat up at least half, if not three-quarters, of the value vs. maybe another ten percent hit on the well-used vehicle.
In the end, Dave will do whatever he thinks is best, but if we're comparing used vs. new, I think that buying used is the less costly way to go. Not necessarily the less aggrevating way to go :)
Monte
Thanks for replying Monty and Frenchy. I can see both of your points and I have agonized over this for a long time on whether to buy used or new. I have had very good luck with buying used cars for less than 2500 dollars. I have bought Toyotas with a 100K on them and add another 100K with minimal or no expense except for ordinary maintenance. That is what I am looking for in a minivan.Here the problem of buying a used car.
No good list of life expectancy for cars
No list of minivans that indicate whether they can carry plywood
What site has the best reviews of used cars, Consumer Reports , MSN used car reviews, Edmonds.
Has any expert actually done the math on what age, new or used is the best buy?
I had to make a spread sheet for the last car I bought with price verses (expected mileage – actual mileage ) =cost per mile... There was a pretty clear line down the middle of the data points but the expected mileage was a guess. The best indicator I have found is to go to the junkyard and look at the mileage’s of the cars there. The Caravan and Voyagers top out at 180k. I finally found one but it took a month and the good ones go fastThe Honda Odysseys in my area are all 10K and over on Craigs List. At that price Frenchy’s points for a new van start to pencil out better. But can you buy a van for 20K new and what kind?
Frenchy, you could be right about the whole idea but it is very hard for me to think of paying 20K for a van even though I could afford it. I don’t seem to have trouble buying expensive tools for my shop but they don’t depreciate as fast as a car.Any other recommendations for specific vans out there or any other advice?
Dave
Dave,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
Have you considered a truck? My gut tells me (I have no research to prove it) that trucks outlast mini-vans. I'm not sure what kind of protection from weather you need, but if a cap on the bed of the pickup won't be large enough to hold your cabinets, then perhaps a truck/trailer combo would do.
I have a Chevy truck, 2 wheel drive, very basic, even without electric door locks or power windows and have hauled everything from wood to gravel and pulled everything from a camper to a yard of wet concrete. It is reliable, strong and gets better than 18 mpg now that I've nitronized the tires.
For the record, it was purchased new...but I wasn't looking for the least expensive method of transportation. I do plan to keep it for another ten years (its now five years old).
I wish you well in your search.
Monte
MonteB
I absolutely agree that trucks are more durable and cheaper to own than Minivans..
I travel a great deal and fuel costs really affect my decisions.. however when I crunched the numbers the lower milage of a truck compared to lower operating costs overall made the truck deal a better one for me..
I gave up 2 MPG but at 300,000 my truck is still midlife... breakdown maintinace is under $300 annually..
Frenchy,FWIW, I agree with you. I buy new (like my dad always did), buy decent quality, do the oil changes and reasonable maintenance, then drive until the wheels come off. The problem with buying used is that you really don't know whether any maintenance or oil changes were ever done, and what type of abuse was meted out. Depreciation is really only a factor if you sell or trade in a vehicle within 6 or 7 years.The other issue is reliability. The cost of not having a vehicle when you need it (particularly when your livelihood might depend upon it) is too high. Most of the guys that I know who are in the trades buy their trucks new for that reason. It is rare to find a used pickup truck for sale that has not been driven within an inch of its life. The exception are estate sales, where the owner died or retired, but these are rare.I have an '06 Tacoma and am planning to be buried in it.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
The conventional wisdom that buying used is less expensive than buying new seems to be challenged mainly on two points.
First, buying used means buying repair problems and downtime which can result in lost sales (assuming business use of the vehicle).
Second, if buying used were truly less expensive in the long run than buying new, then big business would be in the used vehicle market.
Let me say that I am willing to be convinced.
It seems to me, however, that since the benefits of buying new are only fully realized after keeping the vehicle for many years (to spread out the depreciation hit), that after five or six years, the new vehicle has become a used vehicle. At this point, any repair is possible, even on a previously new vehicle that you've maintained well. Downtime is downtime. Customers don't care if you've maintained your vehicle well or not.
A backup plan for taking care of customers would seem prudent.
It also seems to me that big business actually leases a lot of new vehicles which solves the problem of downtime since they're always getting a new vehicle every 2-4 years. Evidently big busines is willing to pay a premium in order to avoid downtime. But should a one-man shop pay the same premium?
Best case scenario: find and purchase a well-maintained used vehicle and have a backup plan for the inevitable downtime.
Monte
I would disagree with one of your points:When I buy a vehicle new, I KNOW that I am planning to keep it for many years and miles, and I maintain it with that in mind. Someone who is planning on trading in after 4 or 5 years or leasing a vehicle for 4 years does not approach the problem in the same way- their maintenance habits are open to suspicion.This is particularly a problem with trucks and vehicles purchased off a fleet. All 6 year old vehicles are not the same.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
I agree with you that I wouldn't want to buy a poorly maintained vehicle either. A bargain is not always a bargain.
But even knowing that I've maintained my five year old (new) truck well, I still know that over the course of the next ten years, I will likely have to make repairs.
My thought is that if it is possible to find a used vehicle that has been well maintained, it should be less expensive to purchase and keep that vehicle than it would be to purchase new.
Hey, I live in Michigan and the more new vehicles you'all purchase, the better off our dismal economy will be :)
Monte
MonteB
The problem with any used vehicle assuming it's a good one. Is that the depreciation curve can be eaten up by dealer markup.. Even private sellers base their price on what dealers sell their used vehicles for.. so you can't avoid it..
IF I buy a new car drive it off the lot and a month later try to sell it back to the lot I will get slammed by depreciation..
However when they sell it they will ask the moon for it. Private parties seeing that raise their price accordingly.
Extend that out to two five or even ten years, and the markup made by dealers always is higher on used than new.. Always! ALWAYS!!!!! so private parties price accordingly..
if you could look at a vehicle and it had a wear guage in it you'd find out that when you pay half of the price of a new one for a used one the wear gauage most often is in the three quarters worn position.. when you pay 20% of the price of a new one the wear guage is at the bottom.. Now you might get lucky.. Like I said someone always wins the lottery..
but a lot of people lose..
Frenchy, thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. I hope that we've helped Dave as he sorts through his situation. I'm sure that you have.
Dave, if you're still reading this thread, as a Michigander, by all means, buy a new truck. But if you can find a little old lady who wants to sell a well-maintained, barely used truck for less than market value, I would jump on it.
Monte
MonteB
I second you on that.. a well maintained truck with low miles at a fair price would be a lower price deal than a new one.. and what you've pointed out about oppertunity costs is certainly valid..
Looks like I have a lot or research to do. First I have to get rid of the Caravan with the noisy transmission. The trailer sounds interesting but it would take up part of my driveway and I don't think I would want to pull it with my Geo Prizm. I am leaning toward a F-150 now. Thanks to everyone that posted.
Dave Raynalds.
All the big three are offering great deals on their 8' bed regular pickups. Tough to find is super cab with 8' bed.
USAnigel,
extended cabs? unless you need to carry passengers with you all of the time save your money.. dramatically add to the cost, get worse mileage by over 1 1/2 MPG back seats wind up full of the stuff that should be left at home or discarded altogether..
I try to keep the back seats clear, cause I sometimes need the full bed empty and all the tools I carry will fit behind the seats.(a little tight)
USAnigel,
Everybody is a little differant.. I'm in Sales and you wouldn't believe the stuff I have to carry around to do my job well..
Plus I am building a timberfraME HOME MYSELF SO I SEEM TO ALWAYS NEED TO BE HAULING STUFF HITHER AND YON.
Opps! caps lock :-(
Anyway I've learned how to use my regular cab short box because I get several miles per gallon better gas mileage with it than the extended cab 8 foot beds report..
PLus I can park it in spots dedicated to compacts and make U turns easily (something I do many times a day in my job..
Because I visit job sites and need 4WD the fact that my 4WD pickup with a big V8, A/C and all the other stuff averages 19 MPG is a testament to my approach. (trust me I'm a lead foot)
OTher salesmen doing my job with extended cab 8 foot bed trucks report 12 to 14 MPG normally
That's an average annual savings of over $4000.00 a year plus mine cost $7000 less than theirs..
We are talking about some serious money here..
Is it worth that much to you to have the extra size? do you enjoy the parking hassles?
Like I said everybody is differant..
Some days I would like a 10' bed when carrying molding, base board etc. If I'm in center city then parking can be tricky but after 10 years with this truck I just need an extra 18" clearance to park. I'm averaging 14k per year at the moment, if the big three would get in gear and stop worrying about their share of the oil profits, there are some very good vans in europe with low running costs and plenty of room. Not as big as the Sprinter but very useable.
Toyota, nissin, and others will soon pickup on this and the days of the Express and Econoline are numbered. Are you listening Ford, Chevy or Dodge?
I have seen a very interesting Dodge van from the proffesional truck dealers. It is German with I think a smaller desil engine and with great cargo capacity and better milage than the regular American vans of course less HP but several of the painters I have met have them and like them because of the enormous cargo capacity.Troy
The Sprinter van? Mercedes makes a version as well.
I think thats the one, I don't own one but remember looking at it and thinking the interior space was great.Troy
You mean the Dodge Sprinter. Nice van, and very respectable MPG, but $35K.
I went the used Toy Taco route, EXCEPT, I picked it up from a leasee who wanted out of his lease after only 10,000 miles.
If you ever need to get out of a lease early, you're going to take a financial bath. The only question is, from who? The dealership is going to trying to screw you sideways, to the point where any private party can step in, up their miserable/punitive offer by 10% and still get a great bargain.
In my case, I got an $18K truck, 15 months old, for $11.5K. The lease guy paid $6.5K for the first 10K miles. So far I've paid roughly $4K (depreciation over 7 years) for 60K miles. I figure it's good for at least another 150K miles, and I still like driving it.
The Tacoma is a strong little truck. I've got the 2.2L 4-cyl., 5-sp. manual, 2-WD extra-cab. So far, it's required nothing but fluids, filters and tires. Runs and looks like new. Surprisingly good tow vehicle, too. 3500# capacity. Mine towed a 3000# U-haul from Seattle to Atlanta last August. Hot August. A/C running constantly. The bed and cab were fully loaded too. The temperature gauge never once moved above normal. I had to use 3rd gear in the mountains, some, and I had my foot in it almost all the time. My MPG went down to about 18, but it would still climb interstate 6% grades at 50MPH, and cruise the flats at 75mph, even at 7000 feet. Downhill, the engine did 95% of the braking. Very impressive, and this with NO tow package. Just a standard truck. After that 50 hour ordeal, towing anything around town for half an hour is cake.
I think that is the one. Neet truck but as you say pricey. Don't get me started about car dealers:) I always drive my vihicles to the bitter end. The less money I spend on cars is more money I can spend on fancy wood and nice tools.Troy
In an extended cab, you can fold the back seats up and keep your tools locked in the cab. Your insurance company will pay to replace them if your car is locked and thieves break in to your rig. Tools in the bed of a truck grow legs and jump out at the first opportunity.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Edited 2/28/2007 9:32 pm ET by kenshep
USAnigel, I picked up a new '04 Ford F-150 XLT "super cab? " (it's a door and a half not a four door) in the spring of '05 loaded to the roof with extras, maxed out load capacity with an eight foot bed and put an A.R.E. cap on it.
As far as I know Ford does the F-150 4 door's with the 6½' bed. If you want 4 doors and an 8' bed you must go to the F-250. I wouldn't give up my 8' bed even though it's a PITA in the supermarket lots and I have to go around the block on Main ST. in my new little town in East Tn. All the best, Paddy
davidranalds,
Don't be hung up on an 8 foot bed.. I haul a lot of wood (50,000 bd.ft.) with my short box.
it's 6 1/2 feet but when you put the tailgate down it's eight feet long.. I always keep a strap with me to hold stuff in place..In a decade I've never lost a single piece of wood.
Why use a short box?
Because it's easier to park, it will make a U turn in a an average street without backing up or three pointing it.. gets about a mile per gallon better gas mileage.
I would strongly recommend a Toyota PU over all others.
Re the trailer, if I did it again I would buy a covered one.
Otherwise, this new/used discussion is very interesting.
TWG
I agree on the Toyota pickup and also the enclosed trailer. If I had room to park one I would have one. I've been loading and unloading my truck for weekend work at our church. When it rains out come the tarps...I'd have tool boxes on wheels to roll in and out of the trailer for offsite work.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
The advantage of buy used is you avoid the almost immediate depreciation of the vehicles as well as the additional interest cost associated with financing. All that said, buying bottom of the barrel used vehicles gets you what you paid for.
Big business doesn't buy new for a couple of reasons.
First they buy Fleets of of vehicles, thus they get volume discounts.
Second it would be very expensive to shop around for 20+ reliable cars, whereas the individual can afford to make this investment in time for 1 car.
Third business usually have an image or a certain need that has to be met (colour, model, etc.)
Finally big business has to pay a mechanic for every repair, even the little ones. My mechanic tried to charge me $50 to change two windshield wipers!
Sounds like you need a new mechanic.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
It was actually a GM dealership mechanic, I no longer go there. I never have this happen with my Jeep. It's one of those service things. I'm sure there are a few people who get them to do it, and they make a few extra bucks... Then there are people like us that get the call, think 'What a ripoff' and take the car someplace else the next time. The Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep mechanics has gotten business on my (and my parents) dodge vehicles for over 12 years now. The dealership has also gotten 3 car sales from us, while the GM dealership (and a Ford Dealership) no longer even get us for an oil change.
Anyay the point was that big business would have to pay these prices.
In my corporate experience, we did not buy our cars when we had a fleet of them, we leased them. It was more tax advantageous to do so. I worked for PWC at the time, an accounting firm and you can bet they wore out a calculator doing the cost benefit analysis on that decision.
Additionally, there is the time value of money that is not being considered. If you pay cash for a 4k vehicle, you aren't paying the payment on a 20k vehicle with the interest. If you bank the difference (300-500 a month plus sales tax and added insurance costs), for 4 or 5 years you can buy a nearly new or year end model with the $14,400 (300 a month times 48 months) to $30,000 ($500 times 60) you don't pay in car payments. You could rebuild the engine every 6 months at that price. Or if you are really smart, you max your Roth IRA contribution every year and keep driving used vehicles. Put your money in an S&P 500 index fund at Vanguard and you'll match the market's return. When you retire pay for new cars out of your retirement fund and play with your grandkids instead of working on your car.
Dave Ramsey is a financial advisor I really respect take a look at his books at the library in regard to taking on debt to buy new cars. His radio show is available online. Here's the link to his website: http://www.daveramsey.com You can download archived versions of his radio show too to your computer if you want to listen in the evenings or on an IPOD.
If you get sick or hurt and can't work, what happens to your new rig and the $400 payments? Somebody comes and takes it away in the dark of night. Your paid for vehicle waits in the driveway until you can come out and play again, like a devoted dog.
If you know someone with a vehicle you want (well-maintained), tell them you'll buy it when they want to get a new one. They'll sell it to you for a fair price and they won't be low balled on their trade-in. A win-win. Also, if they know you'll buy it from them they may buy a new one sooner rather than later. I have a 2000 Tundra shortbed and sure like the new ones, but mine is paid for and only has 80k miles on it. Drastically updated new models make the older ones more available too.
I don't agree that all people trade in cars because they are problems, some people like to drive new cars all the time. I'd look for Toyotas that came in off of leases.
At least two car dealers own NFL teams, I guess they are making some money sellin' em new.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
<...gets better than 18 mpg now that I've nitronized the tires.>Monte, What is nitronizing the tires?
Grainwise,
Nitronizing refers to replacing the regular air in the tires with mostly nitrogen.
As it was explained to me, the nitrogen molecules are larger in size (relatively speaking) than the molecules in air, which for some reason (not explained to me) enables the vehicle to obtain better gas mileage by a mile or two. Perhaps someone with scientific knowledge can explain the reason.
My local tire dealer nitronized the tires in our truck and automobile, and yes, the gas mileage on the truck improved by a mile or two. I don't track mpg in the car.
It may be my imagination, but the vehicles also seem to ride a little differently on nitrogen.
Monte
MonteB,
As a chemist I'm skeptical of nitronizing.
Regular air is about 80% nitrogen already, so you are only switching out about 20% of the gas when you go with 100% nitrogen.
It is true the an atom of oxygen is slightly smaller than an atom of nitrogen, but the elements exist as diatomic molecules (so the nitrogen and oxygen we breath are actually N2 and O2). N2 has a stronger bond, which results in the two atoms being about 10% closer to one another (110 vs 121 picometers), so N2 is probably smaller than O2.
I can't argue with you if you say you actually got better mileage, but I'm guessing there is a fair amount of "scam" to the whole situation.
There could be some factor I don't know about, but I wouldn't pay for it.
Rufus,
LOL, you sound like me questioning the economy of purchasing a new vehicle when Frenchy has data to prove it.
I did not pay for the nitronizing since my tire dealer did it for "free" when I bought a set of new tires for the car. They nitronized my truck later that same day (old tires) at no charge.
Since I always track my mileage in the truck, I saw an immediate impact, which convinced me that it works. But I am no scientist and cannot even offer an explanation as to why it works.
Monte
Monte,
Any chance when they "nitronized" your tires they simply got them inflated to the correct amount? I'm thinking that maybe if you were a few psi low, your mileage would improve with inflation?
You sound like you pay attention to your vehicles, so I'm probably wrong. I find it funy/frustrating when I can provide answers to the hard questions, and not the simple ones.
Rufus
Rufus,
I don't check my psi as regularly as I should, but I can say that I do check it from time to time. Whenever I've added (regular) air to bring a tire or two up to spec, I did not notice an improvement in mpg, for which I do faithfully keep a logbook.
My usual mpg (not counting winter weather) had been 16-17 mpg. After the nitronization late last summer, my mpg immediately jumped over 18 mpg. I was pleased.
As they say, your mileage may vary.
Monte
We always change our winter air for summer air in veichles tires seems to help get better mileage.
interesting.... hanx Monte
MonteB-You say, "Nitronizing refers to replacing the regular air in the tires with mostly nitrogen."I think if you replace the regular air in your tires every 3000 miles you will notice the same effect.
davidraynalds,
Ignore deprecation.. You shouln't plan on selling this..In your application a couple of decades should be achievable..
it's a tool, you won't replace it untill it becomes cheaper to replace it than to fix it..
IF owning used were honestly cheaper than big business would have figured that out long ago.. they are all about costs..
Trust Consumer reports.. they are as neutral as is possible. Their record is pretty impecable.. (besides I am so cheap I go to the public library rather than subscribiing)
When you buy used it's real hard to weigh wear and tear versis price.. too many unknowns..I do know that every car dealership has the old pros sell the used cars because there is a lot more profit to be made selling used than selling new. New you can find out exactly how much profit a car dealer is making before you ever stop in.. A lot of my buddies buy cars on the internet and have the winning dealer deliver it to their house for the paper signings etc.. That way they completely control everything..
You want actaul costs go on the internet and start looking there are several websir=tes that have not only costs be rebates and kickbacks etc.
thus you can compare is that 0% finance a good deal or a rip off..
MonteB
You failed to consider the tax ramifications of the purchase as well as the cost of keeping sufficent liquid capitol available to repair the inevitable breakdowns.. Nor did you consider that when it is broke he needs to waste time at the repair shop in a non productive way while he could be generating income if it weren't broken down..
Add the delay in delivery or pickup of materials and you have the potential to lose customers.. a far higher cost than the simple cost of repairs..
If buying used were honestly less costly then big business certainly would be doing it.. they are all about costs!
You are right.. people get a mind set and it's extremely difficult to change theirs. I used to buy used.. I was a mechanic and have a whole shop full of tools and equipment.. plus I know how to do repairs quickly and efficently .. (my hobby is still in part restoring cars)
It took ten years of careful record keeping to convince me.
I now buy a new car and run it into the ground.. A decade is the absolute minimum I keep a new vehicle and I often put 50,000 miles a year on mine.
So I spend $25,000 on a new vehicle and get a decade from it, my raw costs are $2,500 a year Less the resale at the end of the ownership period and my annual cost can drop to below $1500 a year.
annual break down maintinace costs have averaged less than $300.00 per year. (routine maintinace costs are pretty nominal because I do my own service.. )
Buying used exposes you to all sorts of issues.. Minnesotas used to have thousands of totaled cars a month hauled in. They'd two piece them, three peiece, or do whatever to make them look good and then resell them. The tittle was clean. they'd take them to other states or even sell them right here and the new owners would get stuck with these issues.
Flood cars and cars that are neglected, rental cars where the car is kept in low gear with the trottle to the floor all the way back to the airport..
OR lease cars that never had their oil changed in 3 years..
Cars owned by guys going bankrupt who neglect everything. Tell me about carfacts and I can tell you ten ways to beat it..
Frenchy,
Thank you also for your thoughtful reply. Your background as a mechanic and your research of careful record-keeping gives me pause.
Monte
Dave,
I've had full size vans as well as mini vans. I've also had full as well as mini sized pickups but a few years ago I decided to purchase a two wheeled enclosed trailer. Not only do I not have to purchase licence plates only once here in Michigan but whatever vehicle I decide to haul it with's insurance covers the trailer and it's contents as long as its hooked to the vehicle. I also like trailers because the weight is centered over the trailers axle and not the vehicles. Needless to say as long as your vehicle has a hitch your good to go. Also something to think about, when you go someplace to do a job alls you have to do is unhook the trailer with it's contents and they stay dry and the vehicle that your using can still be driven without having to haul everything with you. Maybe a trailer's not for everyone but I can defiantly tell you I'll never use anything else no matter what I decide to haul it with.
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
What a great discussion. I hadn't expected so many replies. I had never considered a trailer or a truck/Suburban but now I will all of those. As for buying a lemon, having a mechanic check the car helps but not always. So now how about some truck recommendations.Dave Raynalds
The 77 Toyota had 240,000 miles on it when I gave it to my nephew because I couldn't get it to pass smog anymore, (and I probably could have rebuilt the carb, and got it to pass).
The 89 Bronco has 145,000, and is going strong.
The 69 F-250 is going to get a rebuilt engine this summer, after only 225,000.
Basically change the oil often, and keep it tuned up, and it will run a long time. The new engines, are really reliable, as the control computer keeps the timing, and fuel mixture optimized, so the things that caused premature wear on older vehicles are pretty much eliminated.
Another vote for a trailer.I used pickups, vans and a full size Wagoneer in my one man cabinet/door/furniture shop until two years ago when I bought a 4 1/2' x 8' trailer with 2' drop gates each end. I've delivered furniture and cabinets, picked up sheet and solid stock and hauled site tools. When not needed it is parked instead of costing money to drag the carrying capacity around. I pull it with a Cherokee and carry my tools in the back, dry and locked. It even makes a functional work surface on site.Cost me about $1000, saves me money and is IMO superior to any method I tried before.
All ways make sure you have at least ten percent of the trailer weight on the tongue. More is better if you can do it and not 'squat' the tow vehicle too much.
Helps keep the trailer stable, and prevent jack knifing.
I still running a 1997 F150 with 8' bed and super cab. Its now at 140,000 miles. In that time the oil has been changed every 5k, a couple of oil leaks fixed, brushes in the alternator, brakes and tires like another vehicle. Always 13 m.p.g.
At the same time we have a 2000 Windstar, it has 82,000 miles. Its has been serviced on time but the trans failed at 80,000, drive shaft bearing at 79,000, power steering pump is complaining at times, rear brake seals at 40,000. around 14 m.p.g.
I believe the truck will outlast the mini van by a long shot. The truck was 10 months old when I got it complete with a leer cap and Rhino liner (won't bother with again). The windstar is much better in the snow but then I stay home when its that bad.
Glaziers have racks on the side of their vehicles to haul large sheets of glass. It seems like it would be easy to fabricate one to attach to the side of a small/midsize pickup. Have vertical receiving pipes permanently attached to the side of the truck with a cross piece bolted or welded to the base of each to set the sheet goods on. This could be 4 to 10 inches wide, I guess it depends on how much weight you are comfortable putting there. The vertical pipes could be 4 to 6 feet apart with the bottom rail/platform extending beyond them if you want. Smaller diameter pipes could fit into these and extend upward. I'd make these tall enough to fit the size of largest sheet good you want to haul (48 inches normally). When not in use take out the long pipes that sheet goods would rest against or leave them there. I bet heavy duty PVC pipes would work for the inserted uprights and they don't rust. If you are very crafty, you could dimension these to use in the back of your pickup to keep items from flying around the bed of the truck. I currently use a two by eight to span the bed of my truck and keep it up near the cab. Keeps slick items in a little corral and out of the wind.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
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