We have a new dining room table and I decided to apply Renaissance wax before anybody used it. The waxed sections look different from the unwaxed. There’s less sheen (although it was not a gloss finish to begin with) and it’s not uniform, and I swear it’s not as “deep” a sheen.
It looks fine nonetheless, but did I wax incorrectly? Or does wax normally have this effect? What kind of finish is usually found on department-store furniture, and is it compatible with wax?
Does the wax need warmth (e.g., through vigorous rubbing) to get shiny, or does it need to stay cool?
Janet
P.S.
I can read your postings but may not be able to acknowledge them–my computer has informed me that it is dying (“Drive 0 on the primary EIDE controller is not operating within normal parameters. Back up data and have the hard drive replaced”).
Replies
Janet,
Although I'm not familiar with this wax, I use wax on plasters all the time. Some waxes will not properly polish until they have cured(cured, not dried). Some waxes will take a week or two. Otherwise buffing does nothing but warm them up and move them around.
Don
There's a furniture restorer, Eli Rios, who recommended using microcrystalline wax on furniture and metal. He has his own brand of microcrystalline wax, Regency, which appears to be on par with Renaissance. However, Eli Rios was "discovered" by Martha Stewart, and for me that was enough to tip the scales in favor of the other brand.
(Think Martha will write an article on "how to rust-proof your jail cell"?)
Janet
P.S.
I just found some information on this type of wax:
"Microcrystalline Wax is a petroleum wax containing branched and cyclic saturated hydrocarbons, as well as normal alkanes from deoiled residual bright stock lube oil streams. Microcrystalline waxes have a crystalline structure much smaller than totally natural waxes and have a very high resistance to moisture, alcohol, acids and fingerprints.
"Microcrystalline waxes are obtained from the residual fraction of crude oil distillation (Petrolatum) or from crude oil tank bottoms. Hard grade Microcrystalline wax (from crude oil tank bottoms) has a penetration of less than 11 dmm at 25 degrees Centigrade and a melting point of approximately 60 to 93 degrees Centigrade. Plastic grades of Microcrystalline wax (from Petrolatums) have penetrations greater than 11 dmm at 25 degrees Centigrade."
--http://www.woodturningplus.com/Wax%20Files/wax_files_1.htm
I wish I had heard of Regency Wax before I bought Renaissance
Personally, I will take Martha Stewart's word anyday on anything related to home furnishing, home decorating or cooking. Her "Everyday Food" show on PBS is wonderful. While the SEC, under the Bush administration, put her in jail, they completely exonerated Bernie Madoff. Just something to be aware of.
But back to Renaissance Wax. It smells like what it is, a petroleum based product. I have some that I plan to either return or sell on ebay since I find the smell very unpleasant. I am finishing a dining table. A shame to spoil all those wonderful recipes from "Everyday Food" with a background smell of auto lube.
I don't know if Regency wax smells any better. But I am going to skip the wax all together and just apply another coat of Minwax wipe-on poly as necessary.
Virtually all furniture paste waxes use petroleum based thinners to make them spreadable.
Most finishers will recommend that wax not be used on furniture wood surfaces. It adds nothing in the way of protection and actually attracts and holds dust. Used on certain finishes, it can reduce the gloss of the finish and can fill pores with wax that will turn white.
Holy thread resurrection, Batman!
The travails of youth
>Holy thread resurrection, Batman! <
Another embarrassing resurrection.
Janet,
Department store furniture is almost always finished with spray lacquer. A few years ago, it would have been standard nitrocellulose. Yours probably also is nitrocellulose, but it may also be any of a number of modern lacquer formulations including catylized and water based.
In any case, there should be no incompatablity with paste wax.
I have always felt that there was no difference between any of the available paste waxes. There is so much hype pitched to buyers of furniture about the qualities of wax. Johnsons Paste wax applied sparingly, wiped off until no more can be wiped and buffed will give as high (or deep, if you like) a sheen as any other wax at any price. It will also protect as well as a wax can (which is considerable).
I am not familiar with the wax you have used. It is possible that it has dried harder than you can actually buff by hand, so it looks dull. You may get a better sheen by using a lambswool buffer in an electric drill. Paste wax actually melts and rehardens almost instantaneously as you buff it at high speed. You have to get to its melting point (not hard to do with a power buffer).
The fact that it looks uneven may indicate that you have applied it thicker in some places than others and have not wiped it down to its thinnest possible film. Power buffing will do that. Or the uneven appearance may mean that the table surface had some protectant on it, (silicones) that is interacting with the wax.
If it really is bothering you, take it off with naphtha or mineral spirits (get the low odor kind - regular mineral spirits stinks and lingers, especially indoors) and lots of rags. Naphtha "flashes off" the surface quickly, mineral spirits, especially low odor, is very slow evaporating. Then apply a coat of some non-pretentious paste wax . . . like Johnsons, Minwax, even Turtle wax. I think you'll like it.
PS: Good luck with the computer.
Rich
Edited 9/7/2002 8:32:45 PM ET by Rich Rose
I'm a fan of power tools, but unless you keep that lambswool buffer moving, it can heat up you lacquer topcoat and melt it, too.
Rich is right, paste wax is paste wax. However, if you decide to go with Turtle wax, I'd be real careful applying it because it contains abrasives which may dull your laquer topcoat if you rub it in too hard.
There are two caveats to "paste wax is paste wax." First, do not use BriWax on newly finished surfaces. Briwax has toluene as its solvent and toluene will damage finishes that are not fully cured. Wait one year at least. Briwax is an excellent wax for restoring older furniture--that's what it is made for.
Second, I would avoid any automotive product. Many contain silicone and other chemicals that may be harmful to a furniture finish. In addition many contain water to make them softer and easier to spread. You don't want to rub in water to a piece of furniture. Stay with waxes that are designed for furniture.
Howie,
Interesting.
I've never had a problem with Briwax affecting any finish on which it was applied. I wouldn't put wax on any varnish for about a week or two. At that point solvents in wax are not going to pose a problem. Lacquers and shellac can be waxed much earlier than that. The toluene just flashes off. It does bother some people when it's applied.
Automotive finishes should be avoided not only because they may have silicones, but they generally have an abrasive and a detergent. I mentioned Turtle wax paste wax. Turtle wax is generally known as an automotive finish, but its paste wax is just a carnauba mixture, no adulterants. I'm not aware of any water in paste wax formulations. Any water so applied would not affect the finish, as it would be an infinitesimal amount and would be quickly evaporated by the rubbing process.
Rich
Nothing wrong with premium car waxes, like Mequire's Gold. Just look at the label (not even the fine print) and it will tout no silcone and no abrashives. Even most cleaner/ waxes that are "Clearcoat Safe" (like Turtle Wax, Simonize, etc..) have such mild abrasives that they don't constitute much of a treath from abrasion anyway and maybe beneficial over the long run because they don't build-up as much from re-waxing. But the light colored residue in the pores, nooks and crannies may be more of a problem. I used to use 'Harley's' which was a real b#tch to buff, because it's pure carnuba which is very hard (for wax anyway), but it absolutley glowed. As for furniture I just use good ol' Johnson's Paste Wax.
Ditto on the foregoing cautions for Briwax, although they are supposed to be coming out with an environmentally friendly tolulene-free version.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John,
"But the light colored residue in the pores, nooks and crannies may be more of a problem."
Yup. Thanks. Forgot to mention that.
Any time a finish leaves open pores (an effect I really like) and you rub the finish down with anything that can leave a residue, it's a real bear to get it out. And it looks like cr*p.
That can happen if using solvent to lubricate steel wool or sandpaper on the finish (use wax or more of the finish instead as the lubricant), pumice or rottenstone. Such treatments are for finishes which completely seal the pore structure.
Rich
Rich, toluene is a component in many paint strippers and is one of the primary components of products like Formby's Furniture Restorer which removes a layer of finish. Not good stuff to use on tender finishes at all. Very bad on waterborne. Briwax will tell you the same thing. As someone has mentioned, Briwax is coming out, or is out, with a new product that does not contain toluene just because of this problem.
Also, the last thing you would want to do is apply water to a shellac or waterborne finish so why use an automotive product. Any of the soft auto waxes like the standard Turtle Wax, Raindance and others are made soft by homogenizing water into the wax. It helps the spreadibility and stretches the product. With all the good furniture waxes available, it just makes sense to use one of those where you don't have to worry about ingredients that may be negative.
Howie,
Howie, you take a small fact, which is not really related to the subject, decide that it is related, then expand on that to come to a completely unjustified conclusion. I seriously doubt that you actually have experienced any of the problems that you warn about, because they just don't exist.
The fact that toluene is a component of finish stripper is interesting. Not compelling, just interesting. (BTW, so is mineral spirits a component of stripping agents) The fact that it is a component, does not make toluene alone, a stripping agent. In Briwax, it is present in a very tiny concentration. Compared to the amount applied when stripping, it is truly infinitesimal. It evaporates rapidly, that's why it bothers some users of Briwax. The manufacturer has said that it is removing toluene, not because Briwax strips underlying finishes, but because toluene is irritating as it escapes into the air. Just how many finishes have you had adversely affected by Briwax? I don't currently use it, don't encourage others to use it, and have no need for it, but my experience with it was nothing like you suggest. And I think that you are providing misleading worry to others who are looking for real information.
The same goes for water in wax. How much water is in a can of wax? No, it doesn't, as you warn, make sense not to use such waxes. The tiny quantity of water contained in the homogenized film of wax that touches the wood is completely harmless and gone before it can do anything at all. What is recommended for cleaning hardwood floors? A mop dampened with clean water!
You haven't the slightest basis to make that warning except that you feel that water shouldn't touch the surface of a wood finish. Yeah, immersing the piece in a tub of water probably is not a good idea. But the logic that since water is "bad" for a finish, a wax which has tiny amounts of water for commercial reasons is harmful is just not valid. It's alarmist and nothing more. If water is bad for the finish, you better seal all your work in a hermetic chamber, cause I've got news - there's, gasp, water in the air!.
End of rant. I've explained the real-world action of these finishes well enough in preceding messages. If you want to repeat fantasy warnings, feel free.
Rich
Rich, I have detailed my 40 years of finishing experience in another response to to.
Here is a direct quote from "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Flexner which is considered by most to be one of, if not the best, definitive books on the subject.
"Some paste waxes, such as Briwax contain toluene (it will be listed on the can). This solvent is strong enough to dissolve and remove many finishes if they haven't thoroughly cured. It will also damage water-based finish even when thoroughly cured." Note-It is no longer listed on the can but will be on their MSDS.
So, do what you want. Recommend what you want. But I do not agree and have detailed why, and supported my position with more than my own personal experience.
As to the wax there are facts the could be developed that would support my points but again, why recommend an automotive product that may cause a problem when there are plenty of waxes that won't?
RE: Rich and Howie sub-thread
I completely screwed up my Koa dining table with Briwax. The tolulene softened the finsih and it stayed that way for 9-10 months - so far. I'm just waiting for it to get hard enough to sand. The finish is Enduro waterborne poly.
BTW I've wet sanded many lacquered pieces with water and never had a problem.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I mostly use Renaissance; holdover from working in a museum conservation department....they like it because it's non acidic, and it's often used on metal for that reason. I think it's a good wax; when I can, I prefer a wax with some carnauba or candelilla mixed in, rather than straight beeswax like Johnsons. With waxes in general, I find I always need a second coat to get a consistent sheen....not exactly textbook, but there you go.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I don't suppose a hair dryer could substitute for high-speed buffing? It provides heat but doesn't help the wax get distributed evenly.
Janet -- I've been a real fan of Rennaissance Wax ever since my museum curator daughter introduced me to it, but it's harder to use than some of the other furniture waxes (like Minwax) because, I think, it also has carnuba and maybe some other components. But it does a great job on small pieces with vigorous hand buffing. I almost always apply more than one coat until it "looks" right. On large pieces, particularly panels or wide boards, I use a buffer which I got at Sears for not much money (around $20 as I recall). On your table top this is the way I would go with any of the waxes until you get the finish you want. As you use the buffer, slowly go over the surface once the wax has dulled (dried) until it starts to develope the sheen you want. After that a few quicker buffing passes will add more luster. Just this week I used Rennaissance Wax (after sanding to 400 grit) and you could see reflections in it after hand buffing. To be safe, I always work on a test piece of the same material before applying the wax/buffer on the work piece. If you already have the Rennaissance Wax, try it with a buffer. I've never been disappointed, but I have had to be a bit more dilligent than with other waxes. Best of luck! -- Jim
Renaissance Wax does NOT contain carnuba wax. It is a highly refined paraffin - so-called micro-crystalline wax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Wax
In my opinion, it smells just like one would expect of a petroleum based product - horrible. How long the smell will persist, I cannot say. I am returning this to the manufacturer since they claim it has no "polish smell".
Wax of almost any sort needs a solvent to make it soft enough to be applied easily. That's what you smell, but that smell will dissipate in a very short order after application. It's not going to linger. The wax is petroleum based to avoid the acidic character of some natural waxes. Frankly, this seems to be one of life's little "get over it" annoyances.
I don't see much point in wax, but having a small petroleum distillate odor for an hour or two, if that long, is not one of the things I would worry about or make an effort to return. Buy something else when you eventually run out in several years.
No, a hair dryer will not work, The buffer momentarily melts a microscopically thin layer of wax, then smooths it while it's liquid. Use the buffer very lightly at first, applying just enough pressure to affect the wax only, not the finish below. It's not hard to do at all, it only takes a minute or so to get the feel. Keep the flat face of the pad on the table, don't use the edge, and don't mash down too hard. I'm pretty sure your wax will buff up just fine (unless the problem is due to contaminants under it).
Re Turtle Wax - I believe they have a paste-wax only product - no abrasives - but it's been years since I've used it (or polished a car for that matter).
Rich
Rich Rose is absolutely right,however, I have found small differences,mostly in
drying times. Minwax dries hard enough to buff out in about 15 min. It works
easily , looks great and smells awful .What more could you want.
Cheerz!
Glendo.
in my subjective experience, Renaissance dries harder and faster than other waxes i have used. i use the finest grade scotchbrite (white) to buff it out, and usually will work small sections, rather than doing the whole table top then trying to buff it. you can get this superfine scotchbrite at napa or other auto parts stores. i've been very pleased with this wax on furniture pieces i have built, and it's also great for saws and plane soles.
I have gone thrugh quite a ew tins of Renaissance Wax over the years. It is a very fine cleaner and sealer (to the extent that wax can seal). The chemical smell will go away fairly quickly. It is not a high-gloss product. I have been very satisfied. HOWEVER, I'ver found that on an old, dirty or damaged finish, or one with other polishes on it I need to apply Renaissance with 0000 steel wool to get the best cleaning and the best look. It sill still be "cool."
That said, on a colored finish, I generally prefer to use a high-quality tinted wax. The color shold match or highlight the finish. My favorite for this purpose is Liberon's Black Bison, which comes in seveeral colors. The results are excellent.
After 10 hand rubbed coats and a lot of buffing Renaissance Wax is NOT resistance to water. It will spot, rubbing with a cloth will not help. 2,000 grit sandpaper removes the spot, then rewax and rebuff. I have a 11 ft. 6 3/4 inch bar of butcher block walnut that took along time to put together, a lot of sanding, down to 600 grit befor using Danish oil, then 1,000, 1,500, and 2,000 grit wet sanding between coat, only to find that Rena0ssance Wax sucks. I wanted a finish that did not look like it was incased in in something.
Anyone know something that works well on a bar top?
Wax is not a finish, just an aesthetic treatment. A good oil based varnish is thee best finish for bar tops. Waterlox Gloss is one. Another is Pratt&Lambert 38.
Varnish
Didn't heirloom make a varnish years ago? I seem to remember using it with good results and I don't believe it was a spar varnish. My fan was broken at the time and I was top coating some pieces with varnish and a brush so not to make too much fumes. I was applying 2 full coats and it was like 6-7 sprayed lacquer coats. Anybody remember heirloom varnish or is it my memory is gone ?
SA
Heirloom Varnish
"Heirloom" was a brand name for one of the formulations of McCloskey's non-poly varnishes. I was a fine varnish but, as I recall, McCloskey was bought out by Cabot a number of years ago. For some period of time (and maybe still) Cabot was remarketing "Heirloom" varnish under their name.
Varnish
Howie,
I have one table of my own that was finished with a brush using heirloom 25 years ago. The last coat (3rd coat after sanding in between with 400) went down so smooth it didn't require rubbing. It's held up beautifully to this day and still looks great. It's an oak top and the grains filled in without filler.
SA
I used to use the McCloskey Heirloom fairly frequently. It was a fine interior varnish.
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