Replace palm sndr w/ Random Orbit Sndr?
kenewald | Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
My trusty vibrating palm sander is now featured on the www.DamnThingQuit.com site.
Should I replace it with a Random Orbit Sander?
Sounds like some techie at NASA named it.
What’s so random about it’s orbit? Looks like it just goes round and round in the same pattern to me.
Disks (or is it “orbital paper”) are alot more expensive than sheets of sandpaper, right?
Just curious.
Replies
I've had a little Dewalt 1/4 sheet sander for about 4 years now and it works like a charm, but I too have been looking at random orbit sanders lately, especially when i want to take material off a little bit faster, though I don't know what options are worth spending money on. Ie 5 inch or 6 inch, dust hookups or not?
I believe the "random orbit" refers to how the base moves on its mounts. I'm not sure about this but I've always thought that there is a mechanism that randomly determines which direction the base will move at any time.
JD
Edited 6/5/2003 3:38:45 PM ET by JDorn
I have both and will continue to have both. I use a soft pad on my V.S as I use round over alot in my work and the firmer pad on the R.O. is for the flat surfaces. When I'm sanding I have 3 sanders out, two V.S. and one R.O.
Dale
This link http://www.iswonline.com/cwb/199908/sanders.shtml explains it better than I can. Suffice it to say, the orbit IS random or eccentric. If you were to compare a surface sanded by a sanding disc in a drill to one done by a random orbit sander, the difference would be readily apparent. The sanding pad in the drill would leave swirl marks while the random orbit sander would leave very few or none. As for the cost of the paper, I think it more or less evens out, especially if you buy in quantity. A good quality disc will last longer than the sheet paper you use in your palm sander. Klingspor makes great abrasives at a good price. http://www.woodworkingshop.com/ If I could only have one sander, it would be a random orbit sander, and of palm type random orbit sanders, I like the Porter Cable 333 the best. A random orbit sander can remove great amounts of material and with the proper grit paper, leave a very fine finish. The one downside to random orbit sanders is working in corners.
Edited 6/5/2003 4:01:57 PM ET by jc
Edited 6/5/2003 4:02:47 PM ET by jc
OK, bought the Porter Cable RO sander. Thank you all.
-Ken
Ditto on the PC 333 note below. Got the 5-holer with dust collection...it actually works. Can take alot or a little depending on grit and pressure. Only about $60.
In my experience they are two totally different machines. The palm sander is basically for fine sanding, whereas the random orbit sander can be extremely aggressive - not like a belt sander, but when you put 60 grit paper on the random orbit it really takes away the stock. The random orbit also can excel at fine sanding, which makes it a much more versatile tool.
The dark secret of random orbit sanders is that they often leave little swirly marks that you don't notice until you finish the piece. The only way to get rid of these is to hand sand after each grit with the random orbit sander, sanding with the grain. Of course that can almost defeat the purpose of using the random orbit sander in the first place. I have basically come to the conclusion that for fine work I wouldn't use a random orbit sander after the roughest grit, where I'm really trying to remove stock. Instead, I try to do the best job I can with a sharp plane and scraper, and if I have to sand do it by hand. For fougher pieces I wouldn't care as much.
This seems to be an area where people disagree a lot. Whatever works for you, go for it.
I use my RO sander almost exclusively, and though I'll confess I don't sand every day, I never, ever get "swirlies" in my finish. I use quality sandpaper, coated when necessary (working with very soft woods), and clean the paper with a crepe stick when it starts to load up. Also, I don't push the paper to the nth degree.
The RO doesn't work well to get into corners (obviously!), but other than that, for flat stock, I really like it. I go up to 220 or 320 with it, don't have to worry about the direction it's moving (unlike the finishing sander, which has to go with the grain).
Get a good sander,, not a cheap one though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Is a "crepe stick" that gummy eraser like stuff?
Yep, that's the stuff. I use one on my 6x48" belt sander too -- makes it clean as a whistle. Wouldn't leave home without one!
Back in the "old days" when tennis shoes had crepe soles, I hear you could just grab an old shoe for the purpose. Not that I wasn't around back then, just wasn't sanding wood!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
And how would I ask for one? Creap, Crape, etc.
Pronounced "crape" rhymes with "grape." I've actually seen them at our Ace Hardware, surprisingly enough. All the catalogs seem to carry them. I bought my last ones at the WWing show, got a buck off I think. But they last a long, long time.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/6/2003 2:23:48 PM ET by forestgirl
In my experience the vast majority of visible swirl marks from a random orbital sander are caused by a kink or fold in the sanding disk. If I accidently bump into a side or something when sanding, I will immediately stop and examine the disc. If there's a fold or kink in it I throw it away and get a fresh one.
Personally, I prefer a pneumatic random orbital sander to any other type of sander. The electric random orbital sanders don't sand the same as a pneumatic in my experience. Mostly they are slower. The other thing I don't like about them is they aren't variable speed. The pneumatics are variable speed and that can be important in some cases. When sanding between coats or whatever on a finish... any material that tends to want to gum up on the abbrasive will do so much more at higher sanding speeds. Slowing down the speed of the sander can turn an exercise in frustration into a managable job. Try sanding a gloss black nitro lacquer sometime. That will quickly reveal why slower can be vastly better. I have yet to find a cured finish that gums up as badly and quickly as gloss black nitro lacquer.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin, I would love to be able to use pneumatic tools! When I finally get a big enough compressor, I'll definitely start adding them into the stable, but that's a long ways down the road.
Actually, some of the ROs are variable speed now, but maybe not nearly as good as the pneumatics. I'll let you know if I get to the gloss black laquer thing. I'm still learning how to do varnish sans bubbles and nibs! but it's getting easier. The only glosss black I've done recently was a la Krylon. Looked pretty good! <g>forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
One important consideration to keep in mind when shopping for pneumatic RO palm sanders is that the lower profile ones are best. The closer your hand is to the wood, the more the sander becomes an extension of your hand - and thus much, much easier to use effectively. Likewise, the further your hand is from the wood, the more the sander feels like a foreign object that you're trying to control. Unfortunately the higher profile sanders are cheaper to buy. But, I have literally thousands of hours of sanding experience and I very strongly prefer the lowest profile sander I can get. Right now I've got two Dynabrade "DA's" as they are often called. One is set up for hook & Loop and the other is set up for adhesive backed sandpaper - both have 6" diameter disc pads. They measure 3 3/8" from the bottom of the sandpaper to the top of the sander. Also... the factory disc pads aren't worth holding onto IMO. Virtually everyone I know immediately swaps them out for after-market pads because they are flatter.
Regards,
Kevin
Thanks for the tip Kevin, I didn't realize there was such a difference in profiles.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As an illustration of what I'm talking about... look at the picture of Jeff Jewitt using a sander to sand water-based filler on page 108 of his Great Wood Finishes book. See how he's having to use both hands and even then he cautions the reader to keep the sander "as flat as you can..." Notice that the sander he's using isn't a "palm" sander. With a good quality, low profile pneumatic palm sander you could do the same task with one hand and not be worried about trying to keep the sander flat. It really is a night and day difference between the two types of sanders. The type of sander that Jeff is using in that picture is the single most difficult sander type to use that I have ever had experience with.
Regards,
Kevin
Edited 6/19/2003 3:56:14 PM ET by Kevin
I love my random orbiter - can't live without it. Typically I go from 80 to 120 with the orbiter. To avoid or get rid of the "swirlies" I go from 150 on up by hand using a piece of styrofoam as a backer/sanding block. With the grain of course and NEVER skip a grit. I've never found a reason to go beyond 220 - if it's an open grain such as white oak I might stop at 180. I tend to use garnet paper on the 180 and 220 and aluminum oxide for courser grits. If "swirlies" are still a problem use more elbow grease or... a card scrapper! But that's another discussion all together.
When I first started reading your post, I have this vision of you whirling around at ceiling level, being pulled by your sander at 120MPH. Too funny!
PS: I don't have problems with "swirlies" -- must be someone else.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/18/2003 12:03:40 AM ET by forestgirl
Random Orbit Sander is faster than the old orbit sanders + they dont leave as many swrils if you use them right.
I haven't used my palm sander a single time since I got a RO sander. It's definitely worth getting.
Ken
I have used a PC random orbit for quite a while. I hardly use the plam at all any more. Mainly to get into tight spots. Most projects get finished before assembly now, so that is rare.
The random does not leave swirl marks as the palm. If you examine with a micro glass, you might see them. If those micro swirls bother you finish with the same grit hand sanding with the grain lightly. I never use under 120 grit with the random. Takes too much stock.
Get one with dust collection. I attach the nozzle of my small shop-vac 6 gallon directly to it and it eliminates dust. My downdraft table rarely sees use anymore, either. IMO, this is one of the biggest improvements in sanding I have seen in 30 years if you use it properly. I caught a PC 333 on sale the other day for $49. It's sitting there for back-up if my original goes south. 3 years on the orig and still humming.
Buy the disk in 25 or 50 bulk. Klingspoors (sp) has all grits and they are not that expensive. Not much more than sheets when bought that way.
Good luck with the decision...
sarge..jt
Klingspor's Woodworking Shop <---click They're having a great special right now.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for your great advice and experience. Sounds clear that the Porter Cable 333 is a solid buy.
I saw a cordless drill at the hardware store lastnight with a "mouse" sander attachment. Seems like it would be good for inside corners.
What do you think about that combination? (RO/mouse)
Edited 6/6/2003 11:36:04 AM ET by Ken
Jamie
Just recieved an order yesterday with 180 and 150 grit in the 50 pack. I just call as the cat center is in Hickory N.C. They can almost sling it to my shop in Atlanta from there. Yep, they are OK folks as they carry all the grits. Some of the odd grits are hard to find local. Highland Hardware has them all, but don't always have the big bulk value packs which is the best buy money-wise.
And the really good news is they can understand my "southern accent". ha..ha..
Have a lovely evening, "young lady of the forest"...
sarge..jt
Ah used to live in Noth CaroLIna! Developed quite an accent. To the point that when asked, and I said "Ahhhm from Cal-i-FOR-nia" no one believed me!
I love the Klingspor catalog -- I've learned alot about sandpaper and what the different configurations are for from reading their descriptions. It well organized and easy to follow. Just put a small order in, in order to take advantage of their special and also get a Sandvik scraper, and a vacuum adapter for my DeWalt RO.
Happy Weekend!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
OK, now I'm confused (story of my life). Are you getting the Sandvik free with the order, or just buying it outright. Got a new cat with the order an didn't notice anything free. Also, I noticed they had scrapers in the cat, but it didn't say Sandvik. Does the pt# starting with SK indicate that it is Sandvik? I noticed that Veritas parts started with VT. I think you may be onto somthing.
Was just heading out the door to go get a Sandvik at Highland Hardware about 30 minutes away. If it's a Sandvik, I'll just order some more paper and get it at Klingspor's. Save a trip.
Good day...
sarge..jt
Ooooh, sorry I'm so late -- been out fitting plexiglas and cutting plywood (measured 4 times, still ended up cutting twice! Read off the wrong dQmn number!). Oh, and no, it's not free -- I wish!
Sandvik now has a different name, which I can't remember, but if you search on simply "scrapers" you'll find it toward the end of the list (page 3 on the search list). The 2.5" heavy duty scraper #665 is $19.95, and the number...sheesh! it's not on my invoice! Lemme go look...
Well, they don't have "parts numbers", so just do the search on "scrapers" and when you get the list, go to the bottom and click on Next, do that again when page 2 comes up, and page 3 will arrive with the Sandvik scrapers on it. Otherwise, it's easier to use their "Order by number" system if you have a current catalog.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
First lady of the Forest; Heres the scoop on my sanding aersonial it consists of a PC 3x21 belt sander thats built like a tank its for when I need to knock down lots fast.. next is a PC 333 RO with the little dust cup quite handy its great for a swirl free finsh.. I have a PC 340 1/4 sheet sander & older Rockwell Speed-Bloc sander also, my prize sander is a PC 505 1/2 sheet sander in the Heritage series came with theOak case-very nice..I also have a very old Ram brand finsh sander guess its like 30+ yrs old & it still runs.. burned up a B&D professional 1/2 sheet sander..guess it wasn't soo professional after all ha..
Have a nice weekend whats left of it anyways.. ToolDoc
I believe that Sandvik merged into Bahco. I have a set of Bahco butt, bevel chisels, which are my favorite for smaller work. They take and hold a beautiful edge, about 25+ years old. Red plastic handles. I ground my 10mm one to make it a dovetail chisel. The edges are cut back, so that you can get under the angle of the socket. This was based on a shop tip in FWW several years ago. Wouldn't think of cutting dovetails without it.
Bahco, that's it. Thanks. Klingspor still calls the Sandvik in the catalog description, but their search engine doesn't produce any hits on Sandvik. I've heard great things about the scrapers' performance. Good to know the Bahco chisels do a good job.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
First Lady of the Forest: Sandvik = Bahco http://www.bahco.com/
s4s
You're absolutely right. Checked with Highland Hardware today the you're right on target. I hope Bahco uses the same Swedish steel that Sandvik did. I've been using their scrapers for about 30 years. First scraper I bought and the only brand for that matter.
Have a good one..
sarge..jt
Replace palm sander with Porter Cable 333 Random Orbit Sander? Definately!
I'm VERY impressed. It's so easy to use. Replacing sandpaper is a breeze. Very low dust. And the finish is fantastic .. no swirly marks either!
The Klingspor Bonanza (or maybe it's bonus) pack of 450 assorted disks is a great buy ($39 + $5 s&h).
Thanks for your great advice,
-Ken
Ken
Lifes is just full of fun little surprises. Ain't it great!! ha..ha..
sarge..jt
SARGE: You "Old Fox" Your such a "Smooser" trying to get one up on me calling Jamie==> "Young Lady of the Forest".ha its not going to work cause she knows your still after that "Walnut stash" soo your out of luck there Buddy ha..
its been raining here for the past 3 weeks I cant wait til this stops & we get some sun & summer weather,I have tons of outdoor work to get done, IM still cleaning up down trees & trimming Winter damage from the 24 inches of snow we got on Christmas day,just cutting grass is a bear now,I hurry & cut on any dry time we get.:(..its soo dreary herethat sometimes IM not in the mood to play in the shop..now thats sad!! :(
Have a Nice Weekend..... ToolDoc
"The only Good thing out of this wet weather is its keeping those Damn Tourists away..<G>...LOL..
Edited 6/7/2003 11:53:27 AM ET by TOOLDOC
Doc
It's my southern charm. Can't help it. ha..ha..
We broke a record in Ga. for amount of rainfall in May. Guess what, a front just moved through late yesterday and about 2 more inches through the nite. Sun just came out and I got finish to lay, regardless of the humidity outside the sun will generate. That 18th Century micro-wave table reproduction is in the final stages. Everythings built except the face frame and about 80% pre-finished.
Sounds like you might need a "bush-hog" for the yard by the time it dries enough to get too. <G>
Have a good weekend, Doc...
sarge..jt
SARGE: "Southern Charm" HUH? hmmm.. Your right IM going to have to use my Big tractor with the field mower to cut the lawn instead of the little riding tractor.. One good thing I have lots of time to spend with my little guy in the shop ,hes working on building a C-D cabinet to store his prize C-Ds in,he wanted a locking plexi-glass door on it ,that means he wanted it secure from his older sister..LOL..were making it out of 3/4" birch plywood with 1/4" dividers ,going to stain it light maple..lots of dadoes getting cut on the Uni..<G>
Take care you "Old Charmer" ToolDoc
Random orbits are FAR superior to the old "palm" sanders. They are faster, offer a very flat surface and the paper will outlast the 1/4 sheets that you have been using. Porter Cable & Bosch are my choices, but go with the "hook & loop" (Velcro) systems. You won't be sorry. Good luck!
John
Swirl marks from a RO sander. Sometime ago a WW mag made a comparision of the sanding qualties of the palm sander vs the RO . The sanding peformace of the RO sander was was judged to be better than the palm sander, BUT, (a big but here) in order to avoid swirl marks in the finished surface, it's best to have a RO contacting the work surface before you turn it on. The swirl marks happen when you touch the surface with the sander running. Just the opposite with a palm sander. They recomended that a palm sander be allowed to get up to speed before it touches the work surface. That's the procedure I use with no problems. Single speed vs variable speed-- The first RO sander I bought was a Dewalt something or other. That worked just fine until the pad wore out a couple of years ago . Instead of buying a new pad I stepped up to the new VS RO sander that Dewalt had on the market. That was a mistake. I never found the advantage of the VS over the single speed. I ended up taking the pad off the VS and putting it on the old single and thats what I'm using today. That's all I got to say on that.
The swirl marks happen when you touch the surface with the sander running.
Good point! However, those kinds of swirl marks are caused because the cam that makes the sander function as a random orbital doesn't do anything without the sander being on the surface to be sanded... Basically the thing becomes a spinning grinder at that point. The resulting swirl marks are easily identified by the parallel swirl marks that look like someone took a grinder to the surface. Small round swirl marks are caused by something entirely different - usually either a defect of some sort in the sandpaper (wrinkle/fold/tear) or a splinter/other foreign object having been between the sandpaper and the surface during sanding.
Regards,
Kevin
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