Replacing Jointer with Slab Flattening Jig and Track Saw
cr24
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hello All,
I currently use an old Delta 6″ Jointer and Dewalt 735 planer to flatten and straighten boards. It’s a pretty limiting set up due to the width and length of the Jointer bed. In addition, I seem to get a fair amount of snipe with the Planer. I’ve used all the work arounds for wide boards (removing the guard on the jointer the using a platen/sled with the planer). Also, a long board requires a planer sled, shims and hot glue etc. This works ok, but it is a cumbersome process.
I am wondering if anyone has tried dropping the Jointer/Planer set up for a slab flattening jig and a track saw? It seems like a pretty flexible set up. Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Replies
I have not, however some thoughts, which I hope may be helpful:
Snipe is not inevitable. Some planers create more than others. A sub-optimal solution is to cut wood long enough to account for it.
Norm had a 6" jointer for years. It should be fine for anything up to coffee table size. I have put bed rails over short 8" jointer beds. It's not impossible, just awkward.
I do occasionally use a tracksaw to cut wood. It is, sort of, possible to get jointable edges - if you are very careful, set it up properly and have some skill with a hand plane. I have a top quality Mafell saw too - not your cheapo junk and provided it is pushed through the cut, it works well enough. You always get straight, but if there is a knot or a slight wiggle, you don't always get a perfect 90. If you don't get the feed rate spot on, you get saw marks. not big, but they do need cleaning up. That having been said, it gives very nearly as good results as my euro slider, all those issues about feed rate being equal.
Slab flattening jigs can be used for thicknessing, but it's no fun, takes forever, is noisy and dusty and still leaves a surface in need of hand-planing. The jig needs a lot of space even though it can be packed away and it is very hard to get more than close to flat. Depending on the capacity, it may need to be larger than a planer, even packed down.
Thing is, it depends on what you want to do. If you want to make large slab or farmhouse tables, then you can certainly get away with this setup and probably would not even miss a lunchbox planer and small jointer as they have little use in such builds.
If you like making smaller items though, you will find the process much slower without the planer and jointer.
Personally, I make a range of items, from large outdoor planters and full size beds, right down to weaving looms, picture frames and small boxes. I use the planer and jointer for most of them. I am limited on time and usually producing goods that are needed on a deadline, so would probably not enjoy woodwork much if I could not get stock prepared quickly.
It comes down to you. Are you ready to slow down and do more handwork? Do you want to build things that don't use the jointer?
FWIIW, I recommend that you buy a track saw and see how it goes for jointing. Don't cheap out - get a good one. If you like it, then sell the jointer. Make a router sled and try it - they are not hard to build and slab bits are cheap and always useful. I'm betting you will be keeping the planer though ;-)
If you want something better and can afford an upgrade, look into planer/thicknesser combos. I have never used anything else - I had a lot of fun with an older version of this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5uicG-AILA&t=2s - these take up little space AND are really good if you don't mind an 8" wide thicknesser. I used one for 20 years and found ways round not having a wider planer. Now I have a 16" Hammer, I still very rarely plane wood wider than 8" - generally cutting boards, which I just didn't make before. Kiln dried wood wider than 8" is not so easy to come by, and there are few situations where ripping wider pieces down to manageable size then gluing them back again is not a valid option - it usually results in a more stable outcome anyway.
rob_ss, Thanks for your great thoughts. I am a relatively newish woodworker and non-professional. Thus far my projects have been smaller up to coffee table size. I am working my way up to a dining table and bedstead. The width and length of those boards are somewhat intimidating.
I have considered the combo planer/jointer machine, but I worry about the length of the bed since I have struggled mightily getting longer twisted or bowed boards flat on my set up. I just can't seem to be accurate when the board exceeds the length of the jointer in feed and out feed beds. Perhaps its technique.
Thanks for the reply.
An old school rule of thumb is a jointer can flatten a board twice the length of it's table. Be new to the hobby I think technique and tool set up are your biggest issues. A jointer can be a fussy tool to dial in and if it's not you won't get good results. That said I think 6" jointers are good for one thing... Boat anchors. A 12"-16" combo tool is the best option for small shops, a small inconvenience at times, switching back and forth but benefits far out way the trouble.
Setup is too complex for a simple post but there are plenty of articles on FW.
Technique on the other hand is first unstanding what you are trying to do, create a flat surface perpendicular to one edge. Once this is accomplished it's up to the planer and tablesaw to do the rest. When working with warped and twisted boards try to reduce the amount of incongruity by cutting longer boards into shorter pieces. This not only saves time but also wastes less wood. If you must flatten a long warped board find the most stable face and always place that against the table. Know where the problem areas are so you know how to react when you reach high and low spots. Don't use excess downward pressure let the knives remove wood naturally, if halfway through a board the knives stop cutting its probably because you've come to a low spot just keep pushing and the knives will start cutting again when the next high spot is reached. After several passes like this the knives will begin cutting more as the hills are brought level with the valleys. In the reverse sometimes I don't hear the knives engage until I am a foot or two into the board that just means the high spot is in the middle. Don't put pressure on the outfeed side until you hear the knives engage for at least 6-12" only then should you have a hand and pressure past the knives then maintain steady moderate pressure on both sides until you have the end of the board on the infeed table but the emphasis should be pressing on the outfeed side if the backend of the board is a low spot you don't want to force it into the blade prematurely let the board find it's on level.
Once you have attained a flat face run that against the fence to obtain a perpendicular edge using the same techniques. The it's off to the planer.
I did not have any problems with the bed rails on relatively short jointer beds. They can be extended if needs be. I never bothered.
Thing with bed rails is that they don't have to be perfect (Shhh... don't tell anyone) - it's ok for them not to be perfect prisms and a little bow is never going to be noticed, nor will it affect in any way the ease of construction of the bed - anything more than twice the length of the beds does get a bit unwieldy, but it can be done. You can't use bananas, but a few mm out over 2m is never going to show. Not even you will be able to tell, unless like a dumbass you go and buy a 2m long straight edge to torture yourself.
A dining table does need a bit more precision, but here's another secret - you can't make a table out of bananas either. You have to start with boards that at least look like they might behave themselves. Sure, you can force them flat, but your chances of them staying that way are slim. That accepted, you can use a tracksaw to give you a nearly perfect edge and polish it on the jointer. With a very fine cut, you'll get a perfectly square edge and if you are not trying to force a bent board straight, you've less room for error. It's a very different game referencing an effectively flat board on a jointer table than trying to do the same with something with a bit of curve that is far off square.
Finally, if using smaller gear, giant boards are not for you. Trying to get a 12" wide board flat against a jointer fence is a nightmare. Yes it can be done, but I'd need an extension fence for my 16" machine. Just don't do it. It's much easier to rip two six inch ish boards from the 12" monster, machine them then glue up. No one ever counts glue lines on tables. If you find someone who does, they can't be your friend!
Same thing with slabs. Yes, slabs are pretty, yes it's kind of cool to have just one piece of wood, but it's so much better to cut the slab up, preserve the live edges if you like and create a piece that is the exact width you need. Nakashima had hundreds from which to choose for each piece he made, and, one more secret - personally, I'm not a fan of slab tables and I prefer not to use significant amounts of epoxy.
I’m regularly use a 6” jointer and 13” planer with a shop made sled for extra bed length. I rip boards down to less than 6” width to individually joint and plane. I try to leave extra length for snipe or attach edge strips. Once all the boards are dimensioned, I glue them up back up. Not always ideal, but it’s all I can manage in my small basement shop.
I don't own a jointer. Just a thickness planer, the Dewalt 735. I don't buy boards with much twist. Cup is not a problem, the planer easily removes that. I don't use any sleds or jigs on the planer.
I rip a clean, straight edge on the tablesaw. It gives me an edge that is plenty good enough to glue up on panels.
If I need 3 or four foot boards, I crosscut them first, then plane and trim the edges. There's no need to process 8 or 10 foot boards if the project only needs 4 foot. Cut the board in half and half of the imperfection is gone.
Just my two cents. There are boards that I can't process with my system. I just don't but them.
I have a 6" jointer. For longer boards I use infeed and outfeed rollers to better support the wood. A 4 foot magnetic level is very handy for setting the height of the rollers. I replace the stock jointer cutter guard with a wooden pass-under one for wide 6-9" boards.
I have switched from hot glue to using 2 strips of blue tape bonded with CA glue and accelerator. This completely eliminates the clean-up when gluing partially jointed boards to a support board for planing.
I have also had trouble with snipe on a 12" dewalt planer. Raising the infeed and outfeed table setting, using infeed and outfeed rollers, and lifting the board slightly on entry and exit help to reduce the snipe.
Overall the system can be a little slow, but it works well for medium-sized projects. I have made a kitchen table this way.
Some very good advice here, especially from Rob_ss.
A planer-thicknesser machine (a combination of what is called a jointer and a planer in the US) is a very useful device, not least because the width of the boards being jointed and planed is set by a single width capacity. In Europe and the UK, that capacity is usually 10 or 12 inches, which will handle any conventionally-used plank .... other than the now fashionable Great Big Slab.
As others have said, the problems of the OP will probably be solved by, first, avoiding the purchase or use of warped boards and, secondly, by learning how to use a jointer and planer to best effect. Machines need skills just as important (but somewhat different from) the skills used in hand tool stock preparation.
The US has a strange market in woodworking machinery, with several traditions that seem to work against the interests of the customers/users of the machines. Unisaws without any form of built-in cross-cutting device (the sliding table) and few if any easily affordable combined planer-thicknesser machines. Both are commonplace in Europe, the UK and the rest of the world, with many examples at prices far below those of Felder and Hammer.
I have a Scheppach 10" capacity 3hp planer/thicknesser machine that's now 20+ years old and still very accurate (to within 0.1mm) after great deal of use, including use on 8 - 10" wide planks 4" thick but also stuff as thin as 1/8". It cost £1200 but a similar machine these days is around £1300 - £2000. Such machines are a mainstay of many workshops.
Examples:
https://bivenmachinerysales.co.uk/product-category/products/machinery-accessories/planer-thicknessers/planer-thicknessers-planer-thicknessers/
And as Rob_ss notes, slab-flattening rigs look expensive, large, unwieldy and nowhere near as effective as as a jointer & planer.
Lataxe
Thanks Everyone. That's all really good info.
A slab flattening jig has multipe uses, one of which could certainly be to flatten one side of a cupped or twisted board to prep it for a planer. As others have said that is definitely not the most efficient way to do it. As for the Track Saw, I own a Festool TS55 and an MFT table. I don't find that the tracksaw and table are a great crosscutting tool, but, for ripping, I would always take the tablesaw or bandsaw. I guess my opinion is that, while you most likely could do most tasks with a tracksaw and flattening jig, there will still likely be work you just can't do as well with these two alone. I tried to go without a tablesaw and just use the track saw and found that I ended up buying a new jobsite saw for the ripping jobs. The best way t o joint and plane is with a jointer and a planer, but we all do without ideal tools until we can justify them, especially given tools are extremely expensive these days.