Request for recommendations for a good square for laying out joints.
DanielBottari
| Posted in New To Woodworking on
Looking to buy a square for laying out joints in the near future to replace my very cheap combi square.
Thinking of getting this 150mm/6″ one:
Wondering whether this would be a good choice, or whether others would recommend a smaller combi square, or a fixed engineers or try square at the same or small size.
I know a lot comes down to preferences. Just wondering what you guys would recommend/prefer and why.
Thanks!
Replies
A Starrett combination square is probably the bees knees of such a tool and worth the money, although its worth checking that you're getting a real one since there's quite a few often poor copies sold of that brand with their logo/name on them, even on Amazon.
Even a 6" combination square can be a bit of a handful when applied to smaller workpieces, though. I found myself gravitating to a series of small engineers squares for most right angle measurements, over time. And to various dedicated marking out tools such as dovetail saddles.
There are also some Japanese "combination squares" that work well for joint marking out and measurements, rather different in their design from the Western kind like the Starretts.
Workshop Heaven, the UK online retailer you're familiar with, have many of all these types so its worth having a scull about their website to see what are generally good quality tools albeit at prices mid to high. Just use "square" as the search term.
However, a standard Western combination square is enough for most tasks, especially if you can insert rulers of different lengths. If you come to making a wide variety of wooden things, though, some of those other square-types can often prove a better choice ergonomically.
Have you read the various FWW articles available here (if you're a subscriber) concerning such tools and how they're used? Such articles supplied my educational theory about such tools and subsequent experience proved the articles to be give a very good introduction to the whole marking and measuring business.
'its worth checking that you're getting a real one since there's quite a few often poor copies sold of that brand with their logo/name on them, even on Amazon'
Ah, thanks for the heads up. That would be very frustrating. If I do order from there I'll do some checking first.
Yeah, I've read a few FFW articles on essential handtools and squares. All highlight the importance of the 12" combi square for marking and measuring.
The size recommendations for smaller tasks like laying out joints seem to vary from a 6" combi square ('Combo Squares: The Basics and Beyond' and '12 tools every furniture maker needs'), to a 4" double square ('Hand tool buyers guide'), right down to a 3" double square ('10 essential layout tools).
At the moment im doing most stuff at the community shed I go to and so using their equipment, which includes larger combi squares.
I'm slowly building up my own toolkit, starting with tools for the things I'm practicing at home - joints such as M and T and dovetails. So trying to make smart purchases and only buy the things I need at home for practicing making different joints until I have space to make full projects.
ah, that kind of chimes with the recommendations for sizes smaller than 6" in some of the articles. I am leaning towards a 4" engineers square for marking out M + T as I know they are more precise. Workshop heaven has some Moore and Wright ones which look good investments.
Thanks, will look at the Japanese "combination squares" too.
Could I ask which brand of engineers squares you use? Looking at sets as a more cost-effective purchase, and some of the brands i've seen recommended on the forum are difficult to get in the UK.
Looking at this set just now:
https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/tools-and-machining/drill-bits/engineer's-squares-set-4-piece-faiesset4/p/ZT2595194S?utm_source=google&utm_campaign=pla%2B%7C%2BTools%20%26%20Machining&utm_term=ZT2595194S&utm_medium=pla_css_3&targetid=pla-1966566900186&loc_physical_ms=9073597&dev=c&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlaef_6bGgwMVa0JBAh3gagOIEAQYAiABEgJoKPD_BwE
The thing about engineers tools in general is that they're usually very precise - more so than equivalent woodworking tools in many cases - as the working & fitting of metal parts is much more demanding of precision than with wood.
Not to say that precision in making wood parts isn't needed - it is .... but as wood squishes, expands, contracts and so forth, you have more leeway than with metal.
In practice, it seems rare for those small engineers squares to be made badly to a degree that would affect their use in woodworking. Whilst it would be wise to avoid the absolutely cheapest (they'll be rough-edged and otherwise poorly finished) you probably don't need to spend on a name-brand quality if the engineers squares are going to be for woodworking rather than metalworking.
I have three of various no-brand small sizes that cost less than those Moore & Wrights but are as accurate as they need to be for woodworking, with no measurable deviation from "exact" that I can detect. (I also have a 10 inch version, which is very accurately machined too but is not good for woodworking as it weighs a ton!) :-)
On the other hand, those Moore & Wrights aren't outrageous prices so why not buy quality and be sure that's what you're getting. Workshop Heaven is also a very good retailer, as is the owner Mathew Platt. You''ll get good advice if you email him as well as no quibbles if something he sells you is not right (although he seems to take far more trouble than most to test for quality before he resells things).
PS I found this about the Workshop Heaven - Starrett relationship. A bit of marketing spiel but nevertheless quite reassuring.
https://www.starrett.co.uk/meet-the-distributor-matthew-platt-workshop-heaven/
Thanks Lataxe,
Thats an interesting point about wooden vs metal tools.
Yeah, I do like the fact that the engineers squares are graded for their accuracy. It does increase confidence that the work using them will be more precise. Those Faithful ones are inexpensive but a grade B, which seems to be a common grading for those sold on woodwork sites.
I can imagine the 10" weighs a lot! Thanks for the link to the article, I've watched the owner in a few videos and he does seem genuinly interested in the quality of what he stocks.
It is a really good try square and a good place to start.
Starrett has long been considered top of the line. However, if you want something similar for a bit less money, check this site:
https://pec.tools/product/12%e2%80%b3-cast-iron-16r-2-piece-combination-square-7141-012/
Then go to the Taylor Tools site:
https://taytools.com/collections/tools-blemished-cosmetic-seconds
and look at their blemished seconds of the PEC tools. I have of couple of those and I cannot find a blemish anywhere and, even if I did, it would not effect the overall quality and function of the tool. I think they are just as good as the Starrett at less cost.
I have a 4" PEC double square and it works great for joinery layout. It's a bit beefier than the starrett equivalent, at least from what I had. I sent the starrett back as it was not square (I guess I got a very rare lemon).
I bought several blemished squares from Harry Epstein, work well, way cheaper than Starrett.
https://www.harryepstein.com/
I do as ysu65 does. I also have a 6" and 12" Starrett combination squares. I find I use 4" and 6" double squares more. Like the PEC Tools 7104-404 4 inch 4R Double Square, Reads 32nds, 64ths, 8ths, 16ths.
Thanks for all the alternate recommendations guys. Will defo check out the PEC 4" double squares, and look into blemished squares too.
@ lataxe - I wrote a reply to your post, but its currently awaiting moderation for some reason. hopefully it will be posted soon.
If you will only have one, make it a 12". I use a 6" more often, but it can't always do what a 12" does.
They don't make them any more, but I have a couple of vintage 9" squares that I love.
Most frequently reach for a set of graduated engineer's squares by Brown & Sharpe. Second place is a Starrett 4" double square. For joinery pick up a wheel gauge, you'll be glad you did.
Everyone needs two Tite-Marks. Everyone.
I have a 6", 12", and 24" Starrett. All three get used by me. Hold off on the 24" until you actually need it. I use my 6" and 12" Starrett on just about all projects. I also have a 4" PEC fixed square. It works as well as the 6" Starrett. Let your available funds dictate PEC vs. Starrett.
Can’t go wrong with Starrett. I use the 12” and the 4” double square
We have conversed several times along similar lines in your other post. I am a firm believer in buying the best quality tool you can possibly afford and it will last you a lifetime. If I had to be limited to only one square it would be a Starrett 12" combination but I would add a 6" blade as soon as possible. Small engineer squares or try squares are fine for laying out joinery or setting up machinery, but they are pretty much one trick ponies. If I need to check a carcass for square they simply can't do the job whereas a 12" combination square will. It will also let me mark mortice and tendons, rabbets, lap joints, and many other functions. With a protractor head it could even layout dovetails in a pinch. There is simply no other layout tool as versatile as a combination square. That said while I must own a half dozen different squares there are only 2 (3 if you count my 6" Bridge City) that I trust in my shop, my Starrett and my classic Bridge City. All the other brands, whether it be Empire, PEC or whatever are relegated to Jobsite use where nothing is absolutely square anyways so it really doesn't matter as much, but in my shop I demand absolute precision and that is why I have the Starrett.
Thanks, that's a really helpful post on the versatility of the 12" Starrett.
Yeah, I'm having some similar discussions as I work out the most useful purchases for myself in the near future.
As I'm only practicing joints at home till I have space to set up a workshop - which will be a while (doing my projects at a fairly well-equipped community shed), it made most sense to get the tools best suited for joinary practice to begin with. And because several FWW articles gave suggestions for combi or double squares of 3" to 6" for laying out joints I was curious whether that was in allignment what others found best to use.
It makes sense that smaller squares might be bit easier to use for smaller jobs. But the argument you are making for the 12" starett being far more versatile a tool (as well as very precise) - capable of the same layout tasks and more - and therefore a better investment if limiting the number of purchases is really convincing.
Much appreciated.
I've used both the combi and double squares in the 6" size. I have a slight preference for the combi square (i.e. the one that has the 45 degree option though that isn't the driver). With the double square, sometimes if I am using it to draw a line, it's possible to have it so that each side is nearly identical in protrusion from the head. I've had this happen sometimes and I then worry I might use the wrong side to draw a line and rip cut to the wrong dimension. Never happened but it required more mental engergy on my part. It's a very subtle point why I prefer the combi square.
A question with no obvious answer: the Starrett comes in both metric and imperial versions, as its a lot of money, is there a better choice or is it just down to preference?
That isn't a controversial topic at all lmao.
Its pretty well preference, and what jives with what you already have / is available to you (constant conversions are annoying unless you're into that).
That being said, imperial is wrong unless you're a math masochist
haha!
Yeah, I'm just starting out. Got some Narex chisels so that is one reason to go with metric on measurement tools.
Better for you is what math you think in. If you buy 1x6 lumber go imperial. If you prefer to use 12mm chisels instead of 1/2" maybe go with metric.
Mostly, like Nick93 says go with what all of your other stuff is already. Just thinking about using a metric square when my rulers are all imperial makes my head hurt.
Thanks, that argument makes good sense. Better to have things uniform.
One exception that I have found is a centering rule. Although mine has both imperial and metric I find it immensely easier to find center using the metric scale. Then there are those like my son a mechanical engineer who can't deal with fractions to save his life.
Don't rule out vintage engineering squares. In the USA, two sites that often have plenty of vintage ones for sale are HyperKitten and Jim Bode Tools at good prices that are quality products. Both of these places have a no BS return policy if you aren't happy and you find it to be out of square. I don't know what the similar places outside of the USA.