Hi folks,
This is my first post on here. I am relatively new to woodworking — lusting after tools but acquiring them slowly on a budget!
I have recently begun some projects where I want to resaw boards into thinner planks. My question is, is it worth having a bandsaw for resawing purposes if one doesn’t also have a jointer or a planer to smooth the cut face?
In other words, will careful bandsaw cuts and a little sanding (or hand planing) get me by, or will I be frustrated and end up waiting to buy a jointer anyway?
Thanks!
Cheers
Melissa
Replies
Melissa
Welcome to Knots! You'll find this a great place to get help, make friends and hear great advice. A bandsaw is as good a place to start as any. I would suggest buying at least a 14" saw, larger if you can afford it--you'll get plenty of advice about brands and sizes. You can joint edges, flatten faces and thickness boards with hand planes, so theoretically you don't need to begin with a jointer and planer. Depending on what you are wanting to build, that can get old in a hurry. That said, I find working with hand planes to be one of the most satisfying aspects of woodworking. I'd start by buying the Lee Valley Veritas bevel up jack plane. You'll be able to use it for a variety of purposes, and if you buy an additional blade with a different bevel angle, you be getting two planes for the price of one (and a blade). Hope that gets you started. Tom
Melissa,
It all depends on what you begin with in the way of planks.......
Sometimes the planks acquired from a timber yard or via reclamation are flat, uncupped, unwinded and otherwise properly rectangular. But more usually the planks are not perfectly flat and evenly thick. This means that they will tend to yield two or more similarly unperfect planks if resawn in that condition.
For this reason, the first operation on the planks is to plane-flat one face and one edge. Some use handplanes but those of us not into long, tedious scrubbing away at a cupped or winded chunk o' wood like the machines, which may be noisy but do the flattening in no time.
Another machine (or more handplaning for the masochists) then uses the first flattened face and edge of the plank to make the opposing face and edge flat; and parallel to their partners (known as thicknessing in Britain or planing in the US).
Now you have the perfect flat, evenly-thick rectangular plank that can be successfully resawn on the bandsaw to make two or more thinner but equally flat, evenly-thick and rectangular planks.
*****
Bandsawing leaves blade marks on the resawn surfaces, even if a fine blade is employed (better to use a rougher but faster-cutting blade to resaw, in any case). But these kerf marks are quickly removed from an already flat plank-face, using a smoothing plane or even a belt sander.
If your machine-planer is of good quality blade-wise and the wood is well-behaved (not prone to tear-out) another journey through the planer will take off the bandsaw marks with one pass and a cutting depth of just a small proportion of an inch (1/32nd or thereabouts).
*****
Nice, then, to start with timber already flat, evenly thick and so forth. But if this is not the case, you really do need to plane and thickness the planks first before they are resawn. Then the bandsaw marks come off very easily/quickly from the flattened surfaces, even with handtools.
Lataxe
Welcome! Doing any kind of woodworking without square flat stock will lead to great frustration. I think you will find that just resawing the boards you will not get a jointed ready edge no matter how good the saw is. Sanding will make the face smooth but not necesarrily flat. Now how you joint is another story. You can acomplish this task with a power jointer or you can do this with a hand plane i.e a #7 or #8. It requries elbow grease but you can do it. Plan on taking time to build your tools I started out paying a supplier to finish my stock and it added a bit to the wood but it was worth it. My priority would be :
I would also add its possible to joint a board face with a router and a jig set up. Those are the tcw. It took me years to get a shop full of equipment. I would scrimp and save and make one purchase at a time and buy the best tool you can afford. If your interested in the hand plane route I can reccomend rob cosmons rough to ready. I built a cedar chest for my niece and jointed the project with a #7 hand plane. Good luck and you will find the the folks here will be more than willing to help.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
In other words, will careful bandsaw cuts and a little sanding (or hand planing) get me by, or will I be frustrated and end up waiting to buy a jointer anyway?
OK, here goes from me.. ANY woodworking can/and wil... Be frustrating at times no matter what collection of tools you have.
I use a drum sander.. The real woodworkers use planes! Love my bandsaw but far from a perfect surface left on the 'stick'....
Melissa, welcome,
Because were neighbors, I'm in Peabody. I often see vast amounts of wood working tools and machinery on the Boston Craigs list. In the last month or so there were jointers from 4" to 16". band saws of all sizes and thickness planers up to 20 plus inches.
You may also have access to Minuteman Vocational.
Best of luck.
Ron in Peabody
"...lusting after tools but acquiring them slowly on a budget!" Been there, done that! Ron's spot-on with his Craig's List advice. Your tool lust is blossoming at a time when there are many, many tools available at excellent prices.
It always pays to know what to look for, specifically, with each used tool purchase. Folks here will gladly help you out. I like to buy tools that are in use if possible (like the Unisaw I bought from a retiring cabinetmaker; routers from a man who was moving to France).
Best of luck!
One more tip -- you can surface the face of lumber with a router, using a sled, if you don't have the biceps/triceps for hand planing <grin>. Click here for one of our local artisan's approach.
>is it worth having a bandsaw for resawing purposes if one doesn't also have a jointer or a planer to smooth the cut face?
H E L L L L L YES !
I don't have a power jointer or thickness planer. Yet.
The first pic is the wood coming off the saw. It can be pretty smooth but may be bowed a bit. Flatten one side with a plane then band saw the slivers off the ends to flatten or scrub plane the bow out.
The next pic is a plank I flattened using this method. A later pic here will show several glued up into a table top. The thin saw horses the plank is sitting on are made of bubinga that were hand resawn and hand planed to thickness.
The photo called "Shinxo w curls" is a pic of a work bench I made up using this method. All hand jointed ( where the various parts are glued up ) They got to be flat to mate up. Takes time but worked great.
The photo called "V J DT cropped" shows the front of the bench. The nice grain is a 1/4" veneer that I band sawed from a thick plank and glued on just for show to the more boring straight grained but more stable wood that makes up the bulk of the bench.
In "Chat 5 x 7" if you magnify the pic you should be able to see the layer of veneer on the left side. ( the vise jaw has a "cap" on top so you won't see a layer looking down on the vise jaw )
The next to last pic is the table top glued up. It is made up of bubinga planks that varied in thickness by 3/8" or more and some were bowed a bit. All flattened and same thickness. I am not saying this is easy. But is possible and will make you appreciate your power tools when you finally get them.
If you are going to scrub plane and try plane etc you are going to burn some serious calories and so I recommend you have one of these around at all times. See last photo.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/24/2009 4:40 am by roc
Edited 4/24/2009 4:41 am by roc
Roc,
How did you get a holden of my birfday cake!? Send it back immediately along with a large carton of ice cream - lifting large panks onto the planer-thicknesser can be nearly as tiring as scrub-planing, your know.
Lataxe, who wants to know how flat those purple planks were afore ye started sawin' them and how they got that way.
>tiring as scrub-planingWell you have to eat for your bicycle so I guess I better send the cake. The purple planks were fairly smooth ~8/4 as they came from the lumber supplier. They were not particularly flat. Had some twist on some and some bow on others. I don't know how they got that way but I KNOW how they got flatter from there . . .Plane and check with the straight edge and repeat, plane and check with the straight edge and repeat, plane and check with the straight edge and repeat, plane and check with the straight edge and repeat, plane and check with the straight edge and repeat, plane and check with the straight edge and repeat,ETC.,. . . ETC.,. . . ETC.,. . . as Yul Brynner said in the King and I.Oh and there was a little work with the winding sticks too see photosWe only have soy ice cream here at the house. Don't want to over do it : )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/24/2009 6:31 am by roc
Roc--Wow, very impressive! Could you tell me what planes you are using in Shinxo_w_curls.JPG ?I have a block plane and a jack plane but they are both pretty short - maybe 6".~M
>what planes in Shinox Thanks,Isn't it amazing what can be achieved through brut strength and ignorance ? : )( originally the name was Shine'o but the Knots gremlin changed it )Lie-Nielsen Scrub , LN low angle jack, and Veritas widest low angle finish plane.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
awesome! the bench and it's tail vise are beautiful! I take you subscribe to the theory that shop benches etc. are more of a pleasure to work with when they are asthetically pleasing. Inspiring stuuff !!
Kevin
Melisa,
The key word in your post is "frustrated." A joiner is the most basic of tools for a woodworker to have. That and a table saw are simply two essential pieces of equipment for any kind of satisfying work. It is simply essential to be able to establish a flat face and edge on a board as reference surfaces for any kind of accurate work. That is one of the most important things to learn, first.
Yes, one can learn to flatten and true stock with a hand plane, but frankly, that skill is best learned after becoming proficient with some basic machines, or you WILL experience frustration. That's simply reality.
Right after the joiner comes a thickness planer. (actually BOTH should be obtained at the same time which is why "combination" machines are almost a standard in Europe.) A band saw is also a basic machine, but not as basic as the first 3, which prepare stock for operations that are done on more "specialized" tools.
Re-sawing is impossible to do properly if you can't correctly surface the face of the stock, each pass, from which you're removing slices, or even just sawing in two.
It's impossible to regret the purchase of a joiner.
Rich
It's impossible to regret the purchase of a joiner.
I regret purchasing mine. I never use it anymore. Handplanes, a lunchbox planer, and the table saw do everything I need to get flat square stock.
American hobbiests tend to get either a 6 or 8 inch jointer. More than half the time I'm working boards that are wide than that. I realize some people take off the porkchop and run through a side at a time, but that ain't for me.
Edge jointing is particularly unnecessary as it is such an easy operation with a handplane and even easier with a table saw (fitted with a good blade - I like the 30T (ripping) WWII).
So, I may be a rare bird - regretting my jointer purchase - but we do exist.
To the OP: For hundreds of years (if not thousands) great furniture has been made without electric jointers and planers. So, yeah, it can be done. Handplanes are the answer.
Samson,To paraphrase James Krenov when a visitor and True Believer visited his basement shop and expressed astonishment, if not dismay, that the greatest proponent of hand planes owned a joiner (a 12" Oliver, I believe)."Of course! What did you think? Why should I exhaust myself when I have machines to do the work? If I didn't have them I'd have no energy left to do my designing and finish work with my hand tools."Rich
If I had the room and the money, I'd rpobably welcome a 12" jointer. The typical hobbiest 6 or 8 inch is mush less useful. I agree with the Europeans that the planer and jointer ought to accomodate equivalent widths.
Samson,In my anecdote about Krenov I was not advocating the specific machine he had.Your negative tilt regarding joiners is completely your own and is hardly shared by even the smallest minority of workers. The joiner is one of the most useful and essential power tools in the shop. There are very, very few people who have the ability or perseverance to true the surface or edge of a board with hand tools to anywhere near the tolerances that a joiner easily and routinely achieves.There is nothing to dismiss about the "typical hobbiest" machines. 6" joiners are serious pieces of equipment. Yes bigger is often better in all woodworking equipment and the owner of a 6 inch machine experiences a huge increase in capacity when going up to just an 8".I have a 12" joiner/planer that takes up very little floor space and I'm very glad I now have it. But I had a 6" bottom of the line Grizzly for many years that performed flawlessly and helped me fill several households (mine and family members) with furniture that will outlast any of us.6" and 8" joiners fill working wood shops everywhere and allow thousands of craftsman to accurately and efficiently produce quality goods day in and day out.Rich
Edited 4/24/2009 9:36 pm ET by Rich14
would have to agree strongly with you here Rich. Refering to 6 or 8 inch joiners as hobby or non serious woodworker tools is an amazing thing to say! Europeans have the set ups they have because if you where to tour one of their shops, and I have, you would be appalled at the small places they work. A person here in US with a 2 car garage has more room than many of these world class cabinetmaker's has. and not all of them have joiners/planners of the same size either. Incidently, that's why it's the habit of many pro workers to combine or cluster the "big 3" machines together : table saw, joiner and planner. A 6 inch joiner and a 13 in or greater planner will do pretty much anything! If you add a table saw and if fortunate, a bandsaw then you can create damn near anything I think. In his awesome book, Complete Illustrted Guide to Tablesaws, Paul Anthony makes a great case for the use of a small joiner and table saw to acheive square lumber, even addressing rough sawn lumber.
Just some humble points,
Kevin
Refering to 6 or 8 inch joiners as hobby or non serious woodworker tools is an amazing thing to say!
Wow, Kevin, you're right, that would be an amazing thing to say! Who said that?
Oh, right, no one. I noted that most hobbiests have 6 or 8 inch jointers. Do you dispute that?
I then said that in my experience, 6 or even 8 inch models are less useful than a 12". Unlike Rich, and apparently you, I like to work with stock more than 5" wide on a regular basis. Indeed, I seek out the widest possible boards. Also, I'm not comfortable taking off the pork chop and running half through at a time. So what am I missing? Please tell me how to face joint a 10" wide board with a 6" or even 8" jointer if I don't want to do half at a time or remove the safety equipement and perpetually expose the entire cutter head. Thanks.
It's not very hard to knock down high points with hand planes until you have a reference face for the planer.
I will pass. I just don't see myself quite bright enough to make you understand anything I might use to achive the answer to your question...oh sorry what was it again?
Kevin
And maybe David Marks 20 inch?
"Of course! What did you think? Why should I exhaust myself when I have machines to do the work? If I didn't have them I'd have no energy left to do my designing and finish work with my hand tools."
Right ON!
Care to share your tablesaw jointing technique and why it is superior to a jointer?Brian
I never said it was superior. I said it get the job done. I rip my stock with a well set up table saw sporting a good blade (Forrest WW2). I could glue them up from the saw, but often get fussy and run a handplane over them too to make the edge even smoother first.
I agree that the jointer and planer are very important tools and extremely hard to do without. The table saw only speeds things up. It is very easy to get along without. I have one and it is usually buried under a bunch of stuff and I rarely use it. I am not turning out multiples for production of the same thing over and over or I would be using it allot. I also rarely use sheet goods, plywood etc. They are great for plywood.
The bandsaw NOW that is a whole different story ! Cutting thick boards into thin ones by hand ( resawing as you know ) is probably the most difficult, tedious and time consuming thing to do. Unless you have a sawing pit and another person to help saw you will be limited to short lengths.
I resawed by hand for a time. By my self and latter with my girl friend on the other end of the saw. She agreed in no time that a bandsaw would be just the thing to have. : )
Resawing by hand is a deal where you have laid out a thickness line to saw to then you start your cut and can only go a couple of inches then you have to flip the board around to see the other side and saw a few inches and flip it and back and forth so that you can follow the line on both sides and not get hopelessly too far off to get back.
That is why two people can do it much better each person can watch a side as you saw and just keep going.
Then there is the night mare of finding a hand saw that can do this. I had to make one. Then the blade grabbed and jumped so bad I had to learn to refile the teeth to make it useful for hand sawing. was using a length of band saw blade.
Once I got the power bandsaw it made it so much easier I didn't mind all the planing. But then I like marathons and hundred mile bike rides. takes a while but you eventually get there under your own power. Not frustrating. It is satisfying. But all of the above does take a lot of time.
You want speed you got to pay for it.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/24/2009 7:05 am by roc
Edited 4/24/2009 7:07 am by roc
Hey everybody, thanks so much for all the feedback!! I can see already that FWW online will be a great resource.I will definitely keep an eye on craigslist for used stuff. Just for interest's sake, the first major power tool purchase I made was a router (with fixed & plunge bases). I love this thing. :-) I just finished building Peter Schlebecker's "Rock Solid Router Table" for myself - very pleased with the result. Then, I was lucky enough to have a neighbor who lent me his table saw, since he wasn't using it these days. (not to mention the value of a neighbor who is knowledgeable about woodworking!)I love hand planes. The first wooden thing I built was a cedar strip kayak, which I did 90% with hand tools. So I am no stranger to the tricep-building, lovely-smelling, lulling repetition of planing. I will check out the planes you guys have recommended. I think I may need one with a pretty long base, to smooth large flat surfaces, though (?)It sounds like, if I keep buying S2S kiln-dried lumber, then with a 14" bandsaw I could expect to get within reasonable planing distance of a flat, thin board.Since I'm just a hobbyist, I have the luxury of saying: if it takes a whole evening to produce a single 1/8" board, well, that's what it takes, huh? :-)Thanks again folks.
Melissa
I agree with your second post. I have a complete set of power and hand tools because I run a professional custom furniture studio. If I were to start all over again as an amateur woodworker I would use only hand tools. A scrub, jack, smooth and joiner plane will do most of the work along with a bow saw for resawing and a japanese ryoba for fine cuts plus a set of chisels (I love my Lie-Nielsen chisels). Then you will need tools for marking and measuring such as a 12" combo square, 6" & 12" rulers, cutting gauge to lay out mortises (I like the japanese style because of the longer fence), tape measure, bevel gauge and you should be all set. I would recommend you buy your planes new from Lie-Nielsen or Veritas. You can experiment with them at the woodworking shows to decide which are best for you. Don't go the flea market route - used planes often need a lot of work to get them usable. By the way a good workbench is a very important tool but you can build it yourself. I have a friend who sold all his power tools except his lathe and now is enjoying woodworking more than ever.
If it takes six months to finish a project, that's six month of fun in your spare time and I can't think of a better way to spend it. Don't get stuck building only furniture, try small boatbuilding and guitar making. Most of all, learn from my mistake, keep woodworking fun - don't turn it into your job!
Best of Luck!
>> Most of all, learn from my mistake, keep woodworking fun - don't turn it into your job!Ahh-- you caught me in the early stages-- I may still be curable!
I find myself daydreaming of having a woodworking business.
In truth, what this really is, is daydreaming of not having a job. ;-)>> By the way a good workbench is a very important toolI am sure I will eventually build a real workbench. Right now, I have this gigantic old WWII-era metal desk, inherited from my grandfather, and as near as I can tell, it is level and flat. It has overhangs that I can clamp to, a wipeable surface (I get glue everywhere), and I installed a vise on it. Pretty functional. My Dad is extremely amused that I'm getting good use out of that old thing, which nearly broke our backs to move into my house.Melissa
The table saw only speeds things up. It is very easy to get along without. I have one and it is usually buried under a bunch of stuff and I rarely use it. I am not turning out multiples for production of the same thing over and over or I would be using it allot. I also rarely use sheet goods, plywood etc. They are great for plywood.
Your view on the TS is interesting and 180 degrees to mine, even though I almost never use plywood (I do like it for drawer bottoms). Mine is essentially a ripping machine. It gets boards to width, with parallel sides and edges nearly ready for edge-jointing glue ups with so much reliability and so little hassle, I can't imagine doing with out it.
You statement about speeding things up is a truism for almost all electric tools, including your beloved bandsaw.
Just fun to air the different perspectives and methods of work.
Have a good weekend.
>ripping machine. It gets boards to width, with parallel sides and edges nearly ready for edge-jointing glue ups with so much reliability and so little hassle,I realize most people would think I am nuts for not putting my table saw to better use. I work allot late at night in a duplex so often it is better for me to run a plane over an edge, scribe it with the marking gauge, bandsaw it to near width, then plane to the line quietly than to TS it. My TS is loud. It has a small lugged belt that makes it so. Also to use one machine on a long board means I need to move another. I am limited in space.Ultimately I would have them all and have the space to leave them set up with plenty of room around each. Is not the case for me so far.As you probably realize the OP is saying if I don't have money for a while what can I absolutely do without. Sounds like they realize the advantages of being able to chose the thickness of stock instead of using the off the rack stuff.Hard to choose or change the thickness of a board with a table saw so I put that one on the back burner. She can work around that one for a while.So next after the bandsaw i would think the power jointer then the power thicknesser, then the table saw in that order.It totally depends on what she is going to build. We haven't heard from Melissa on that yet; could make allot of difference if she needs to cut allot of dados etc.thanks
You have a great weekend to.Melissa,
PS: sorry to start out kind of rough it didn't dawn on me you were a woman until I went back and reread then I refused to change it out of equality to women. What can I say.What do you intend to make the most of project wise or type of cuts etc?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/24/2009 10:46 am by roc
Re: what I want to build:I have become really interested in inlay and curves in furniture. I've been experimenting with steam bending but sometimes (most of the time?!) laminating is easier, and I would like to be able to cut my own plies out of thicker stock.Plus the bandsaw would be nice for cutting in-plane curves (I made a 30" diameter circular coffee table out of hard maple and it was... a long process... to cut that circle with a coping saw and clean it up with the router.)
Talk about a workout! I really should have had chocolate cake on hand for that one.> Sorry to start out kind of roughLOL! no problem. My day job is an engineer; I am around lots of men all the time; I don't have the cleanest mouth myself. ;-)Cheers,
Melissa
PS: Looking at Lee Valley's website. Guess I should stop thinking of hand planes as the "cheap alternative" !
Hand planes can be cheap if you are willing buy vintage Stanley (Bailey) planes. A 3, 4, and 5 together could likely be had for less than $100. Add another $100 if you decide you need replacement (thicker modern) blades.
If you do a lot of curves, I highly recommend a 113.
Melissa, >Laminations for curvesVery cool. I have no experience there but one of my Heros is Jere Osgood. He is a master of the curved lamination.http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Community/ArtistProfile.aspx?id=1235>coping sawI highly recommend making or buying a bow saw or two. Much longer stroke and much more blade tension.http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2006http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00123.asp>cheap alternative / hand planesWell this site :http://www.holteyplanes.com/index.htmwill make the Lee Valleys look inexpensive which they really are ( great quality for what you pay though )The largest Holtey planes are several thousand dollars each. Nice stuff. If I had unlimited funds I would get a coupleHere is a place http://www.marcouplanes.co.nz/index.php/hometo look for similar quality TOP SHELF in case you want to treat yourself for a success etc. His prices are more affordable.Yep a bandsaw could be a good friend for laminating. I have seen people use the table saw to trim up the edges of the glued up laminations. I think Norm on New Yankee Workshop has an episode doing that. Probably could just bandsaw, or hand saw and then hand plane.Sounds like you are well on your way to making some great furniture !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/24/2009 10:28 pm by roc
"I love hand planes. The first wooden thing I built was a cedar strip kayak, which I did 90% with hand tools. So I am no stranger to the tricep-building, lovely-smelling, lulling repetition of planing. I will check out the planes you guys have recommended. I think I may need one with a pretty long base, to smooth large flat surfaces, though (?)"
Melissa - Welcome to Knots. You've no doubt already learned from this thread that controversial topics tend to get into arguments (that's common with most lightly moderated forums - it's not just Knots).
But for the moment, never mind whether a jointer is an essential tool, a nice-to-have, or a boat anchor. Obviously, that greatly depends not only on what you wish to make but also how you wish to work. And, as with any power tool, there is a hand-tool alternative since most furniture forms and joinery types were accomplished well before the discovery of electromagnetism and the electric motors that allowed. Perhaps the exception might be modern laminates - plywood would be difficult to produce in 4X8' sheets with hand tools (though I suspect it could be done - the appropriate question would probably be "why?").
Anyway - there is an absolutely essential tool that hasn't been discussed yet. If you already have one of these, you can ignore this, but you absolutely must have a flat bench to do a lot of surfacing and truing with handplanes. There's a lot that can be done with handtools in general without a traditional bench, but preparing 1/8" thick veneers by hand isn't one of them.
One can make one of these very inexpensively that will be the equal (or superior to) a commercially purchased bench, but this is the first thing you should consider when equipping a shop that will have a good deal of hand work incorporated into the work flow. If you don't already have it, the bible for this is Christopher Schwarz' "Workbenches: From Theory and Design to Construction and Use". It will be the best $20 you will spend on tools, and will save you far, far, more than its purchase price in bench design mistakes.
melissa
Hello , thought I would chime in as you seem to be interested in curves and circular shapes as I do 90 % of my work with curves and bending, forming and laminating curves when building music bows. Your round table situation could have been solved with a band saw for sure but are you aware of the circular devices that allow the router you have to cut through circles or even curves? http://www.Rockler.com has all kinds of these and I know a guy who jig saws forms (curves for example) from masonite or 1/8th -1/4 inch plywood then uses these as his router template to cut shapes, then if needed uses a flush trim bit to smooth. I use a spokeshave or my spindle sander to shape as well. His work is exceptionally clean and at times he makes a pass on top then flips the board and template over to cut up to 3 in ++ wood. He claims it takes out a ton of sanding and he likes that he can also put edges of all kinds on the curved boards. at times he will use the jig saw (much less costly than a band saw but with power differences) to cut boards then laminate them to his thickness goal then clean up with the router or spokeshave or spindle sander. If you are limited budget wise this may be a way to go. Bosch has the best saws but my ryobe does well especially with the just released new 6 volt units and good blades. Even a bandsaw leaves an uneven edge most of the times! We use Eagleamerica.com as one source for cutting/finnishing bits on and off the router table. You can buy tables here or build one for cheap their are a lot of nice plans here on FWW site. We freehand a lot but better precision and clean up can happen on the table. Whitesiderouterbits.com or http://www.mLcswoodworking.com are other excellent sources and offer even shaper bits which, when a router is in a table can create phenominal results, just takes some special parts (inexpensive) to configure the router or if your router can handle 1/2 inch spindles, you can get gpoing right away. They are of course some of the most dangerous bits due to their long cutting serfaces but guards on router table and hold down clamps or jigs etc. reduce risk. Best for routers 1 1/2 HP or greater but depends on type of wood you are cutting as well. I have a 2 1/2 HP router that does very well as many shapers use a 2-3 hp motor. My friend and I have even created some of our own bits or had them made. one last note: I use the jig saw to cut and build bending forms as well then trim straight with router if you want to try bending let me know I have pretty much done evrey method out there in my type of work!
Hope this lengthy note helps a bit. Good luck and enjoy perhaps one of the most fulfilling of arts!
Kevin
Melissa,You could have cut the circular table top out using a router for the entire job, by just going around several times while lowering the bit each time to take off the wood in steps.You can easily and at no great expense resaw boards up to 12" wide on a standard Delta style 14" band saw with a riser block, a 1 to 1 1/2 HP motor, and the stock steel or inexpensive aftermarket carbide guides, which are my favorite. It requires the right blade, and a sharp one, but resaw blades are not any more expensive than other band saw blades.The board you are resawing is faced on a jointer before it is resawn so that the piece cut to thickness will have one jointed face and one bandsawn face. The sawn face is then cleaned up, and the piece is evenly thicknessed, by then running it through a thickness planer. If the stock is thin it is often attached to a backer board of plywood or MDF with double sided tape to prevent the stock from catching and shattering while it is passed through the planer. Running thin stock over a jointer is dangerous, the stock can catch and disintegrate leading to hand injuries. If you are working with stock wider than your jointer it is very easy to roughly flatten the stock with a stock #4 hand plane or hand held power planer before feeding it through the thickness planer to get finished flat surfaces. Using a sled is way too much trouble and unnecessary.As already suggested, there is no need to go out and spend hundreds of dollars for a state of the art plane when perfectly good used ones are readily available for around $20.00.John White
Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007
Edited 5/15/2009 9:26 am ET by JohnWW
I have a couple thoughts;
First, I would base my decision about tool purchases on your next project, not this one. Tho I have no personal experience using bandsaws, from what I read resawing well requires special blades, tuning, and sometimes expensive machines. Not sure cheap band saws will do a great job (depending on what you're after). So my concern would be, do you really want to spend $1000+ to execute this one project? Would you be better off buying a $350 saw and paying someone with an $80,000 saw $50 to do this operation for you?
My sense is that a cheap band saw (meaning nothing special, i.e. not some super Laguna model) is a great first tool. When coupled with hand planes and a few hand saws, it may be all you really need. I've talked to more than a few woodworkers who find this the single most important/useful machine in the shop (most important tool is often identified as the workbench).
I think when you have some project that requires something special, it doesn't always pay to develop that capability in house.
Lastly, mention of running 1/8" boards across a jointer makes me uncomfortable. Again, I have never used a jointer, so maybe those who have can chime in here. But that sounds like that is something I would treat very carefully.
My sense is that a lot of the "basic" or "essential" power tools are essential for businesses and folks who work with sheetgoods. For a part time furnituremaker, I might recommend a different suite of tools. I think Gary Rogokowski recommended such a suite of tools in a past issue of Tools and Shops. Pretty sure the band saw was #1 and the table saw wasn't included in the list. My list would include band saw, wood lathe, drill press, possibly a chopsaw, bench grinder, long wood planes, a good smoother, and a set of western saws and chisels.
Adam
Melissa,
Think though what you want to do in the future.
A bandsaw is a good thing.
You can surface stock using a router or take a look at this jig using a planer:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=24118
Jointers are ok, but are they necessary? I have an 8" jointer. It is mostly in the way, heavy, doesn't surface anything over 8".
Eventually you will decide to get a planer, so why not try this out, if it doesn't work you are not out anything.
Don
I am REALLY surprised at the responses from you guys who are negative about the usefulness of a joiner. Of course, there are just a few of you here. What's missing is the thunderous silence of the thousands of wood workes who use them on a daily basis and find them indispensible.An 8" joiner won't surface anything over 8", huh? That's a limitation!!?? Don't look now but that encompasses well over 95% of the needs to use this machine in most shops. Just how often have you REALLY needed to include a board wider than 8" in some kind of project? I have made many dozens of tables, most of them bread-board trestle design, but also many other types. I've NEVER glued up with boards wider than 8". In fact a 5" board is too wide for most pleasing designs.But an 8" CAN surface up to a 16" width simply by taking off the guard and running the board through twice. It's no big deal. Yes, there's a little cleanup required with . . . wait for it . . . a hand plane! A hand tool used for a quick, easy "finishing operation."Have you actually tried the kludge thickness planer sled you've advocated? I doubt it. It's an exercise in frustration and there have been several posts here from folks who have never gotten it to work.The same can be said for router jigs. Such projects generally show up in magazines who's leaning is, "Yes, you CAN perform EVERY power tool operation using nothing but a router. No need for anything else." Right!Theoretically, the geometry of such jigs should allow the operations to succeed, but the practical truth is that unless they are made of cast iron, flexing, twisting of their wood construction and poor tolerances between the tool and the jig make results very sloppy and unpredictable. For very small projects and as an interesting "experiment" they are a diversion. They are FAR more trouble than they're worth for much else and are just toys compared to even a low-end 6" joiner.This is all getting very tiresome and attempts to find something other than a joiner to do the simple thing that a joiner does so well and so easily is just misleading and doesn't serve the OP at all. The quality of construction, mass, accuracy of adjustment, repeatability and results of the lowest-priced machine compared to any of these jigs is simply beyond comparison. Why make things harder than they need to be?I'm done. Nothing more needs to be said.Rich
Edited 4/25/2009 8:12 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
<Nothing more needs to be said.>
Ok. Then I'll be the one to say it: Well said...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Rich,
Yes the planer/thicknesser (I mean jointer & planer) are really great WW workhorses. They've saved me hundreds maybe thousands of hours of what would have been tedious and frustrating labour trying to flatten and square planks by other means.
It seems the OP may be mostly using already squared and flattened lumber from the timber merchant, which means that the jointer/planer is less necessary perhaps. But even used as a "smoother" after the bandsaw, or a means to thickness to a wanted dimension, a planer saves a lot of time/effort compared to scrubbing or even smoothing with a handplane.
I have an admiration of sorts for lads who can and do scrub planks flat, especially if they're starting with gnarly hardwood ones containing difficult grain. I only tried a couple of such planks myself, with the handplane dimensioning from rough. It took hours and gallons of sweat. Also, the results were acceptable but only just - far from the precision achieved in a couple of minutes with the planer-thicknesser. Of course, experience with scrubbing would no doubt improve performance - eventually.
Also, I prefer to smooth and finally-flatten with a handplane these days as it leaves a surface that has a certain character and can avoid tear out that tends to occur in nasty-wood using even the sharpest blades and smallest cut in the planer/thicknesser. (Although I do hear rumours that one of those special heads with serried ranks of TCT cutters perform extremely well with even the most difficut and tear out-prone timber).
That Krenov had the right idea - save the time & effort for the joints and finished surface. :-)
As to skinny jointer width; we Ypeans do puzzle at the separate jointer-planer machine syndrome you suffer in the US of A; but are even more non-plussed by the fact that jointers are 6" or 8" whilst planers are 13". Eh?
Still, most of my planks are less than 6" wide, as you describe, although every now and then it's useful to be able to deal with a 10-incher in the planer/thicknesser machine which has that capacity for both planing and thicknessing.
Lataxe, who should have the patience to scrub but hasn't.
Lataxe,Yup, to all.That's why I have a 12" joiner/planer (planer/thicknesser).But as I said, I've done an awful lot of work with a 6" machine and many do.I find all this ruckus and hullabaloo about hand tools amusing and at times irritating. A distinctive holier-than-thou attitude has been developing for a while among those who "pride" themselves in using ONLY hand tools. They seem to fall into 2 camps, those who use breath-takingly-expensive new versions (no offense intended, sir) and those who use ONLY "vintage" models.This all would have been curious to my father and grandfather who, of course, learned on hand tools of their day (pre-1900 in my grandfather's case) and used whatever they needed to get the job done, hand or power. Hand tools had not achieved the mystical status then as they seem to have now because they didn't yet belong to times gone by.(They would have laughed at the cult-like atmosphere that has developed. I remember my father telling me what a vast improvement cast iron and steel hand tools were when they replaced wooden versions. Wooden planes had to be "refurbished" almost every night at the pace they were used on a daily basis. Stanley planes changed all that and allowed workers to get much more work done with much greater accuracy, without the need of constant attention to the condition of the plane body. Stanely sold a gazillion planes then. Yet we revere wooden body planes today. - I make my own. But these things don't get 1% of the use in a year that a journeyman cabinetmaker then subjected his equipment to in a single day.)Yes, there were Luddites who objected to power machines then. But not for the reasons we hear today.Small carpentry and furniture shops were in abundance then and quality plus efficiency of production meant the difference between success and failure. They approached their work with the very same philosophy Krenov expressed. They could use any hand tool in the shop with great ability, but used power equipment whenever they could.Rich
Edited 4/25/2009 10:43 am ET by Rich14
Rich, I guess there are two sides to this (and every) discussion. We hand tool folks have been hearing and reading about "essential (machine) tools" for a looong time. I think the pedulum has swung the other way. Finding a sensible middle ground seems to be the wise move. The problem as I see it is that it takes a lot of dedication and commitment to develop enough skill to make hand tools a "real" choice.FWIW, and not to be argumentative, I don't think what you wrote about wooden planes is at all accurate. Metal planes were designed to be cheaper than wooden planes. That's why they were popular. In my 1902 Sears catalog, a Staney #40 scrub was $.68 while a transitonal fore plane was $.90. "Transitionals", Stanely's planes with metal frogs and wooden soles were actually not an evolutionary step between wood and metal planes. They were built after metal planes for folks who preferred wooden soles. Despite what Pat Leach says, these aren't bad planes.Wooden planes do NOT have to be "refurbished almost every night" or weekly or monthly. My fore plane is over 150 years old. I use it daily. I've used it or planes like it in unheated shops year round. I've used them professionaly, used them to feed my family etc etc (the kids don't like them btw. They taste terrible! :)Regarding the jointer, I have practical ways around not having one that don't include "gallons of sweat". In this case, the OPs question is fairly specific: She's not looking to reduce thickness or remove a ton of cup. She wants to smooth out a board she's resawn on a band saw. She also mentioned 1/8" thicknesses. If I understood her correctly, I think we're on the wrong page talking about rough flattening. Can you even (safely) flatten 1/8" stock on a jointer?My specific advice, having smoothed 1/8" boards I've resawn by hand (which must be rougher than bandsawn stock) is to forget about flattening. These boards can be easily restrained in almost every project. Flat is irrelevant. If the board can't be restrained, no amount of flattening will keep it thus. I recommend focusing on smoothening it out. Find something VERY flat- a good work bench, or (God help me) a piece of thick mdf. Stick the board to the bench with double sided tape. Plane it smooth with a super high angle plane. Lacking a decent high angle smoother, I'd use my toothing plane, then scrape the surface clean.Guys did this in the 18th c by the way. We're calling these boards. They called them veneers. They would glue this to something else with a piece of paper inbetween. They could prepare it, then lift it up. (Or they would just clamp it down and be careful with it). This is one of those cases where (imo) these really dogmatic approaches are just a turn off for woodworkers asking questions (and I'm as guilty as anyone of being too dogmatic). If I've understood correctly, above is what I would do. I think it would be helpful if one of you power tool guys coud give her another very specific suggestion. How much "wind" will she get off the band saw? How big a deal is this? How do you "joint" thin stock safely? And somebody should probably suggest grain orientations that will remain flat. Forgive the expression, the devil is in the details. Could she just run this through a lunchbox planer? Adam
Adam,
You make good points (as does Rich) and perhaps only some kind of synthesis is needed?
The OP, in post #15, says:
"I love hand planes. ..... I am no stranger to the tricep-building, lovely-smelling, lulling repetition of planing. I will check out the planes you guys have recommended. I think I may need one with a pretty long base, to smooth large flat surfaces, though (?)
It sounds like, if I keep buying S2S kiln-dried lumber, then with a 14" bandsaw I could expect to get within reasonable planing distance of a flat, thin board.
Since I'm just a hobbyist, I have the luxury of saying: if it takes a whole evening to produce a single 1/8" board, well, that's what it takes, huh? :-)"
So I think you're right to suggest that any S2S resawn planks (assuming the S2S isn't badly warped) would be easiest-smoothed on the (re)sawn side with a handplane. As the OP has understood, a jack or even a triplane might be best, assuming the resawn planks are longish and need to be kept flat.
But I have used a mere smoothing plane to take the resaw marks off planks, as very little needs removing and the saw marks themselves are something of a guide as to where one should plane more or stop planing. Of course, if the resaw didn't go right and the plank is not evenly thick, or flat on the resawn side, a long handplane would be better - or the machine thicknesser better still, if precision-thickness is wanted.
Wood or metal plane? Well, it's really a matter of personal preference these days, as there seems to be an enormous choice in the market.
It isn't inherently dangerous, in my experience, to thickness 1/8" planks in a machine. I suppose it might depend on the thicknesser (you say planer) employed. Mine has rubber in and outfeed rollers which keep all planks, no matter how thin, flat-down on the table. I've run them through at 2mm (a bit over 1/16") to get rid of bandsaw marks on home-made "construction" veneer.
Perhaps if knives are dull, rollers not well-aligned or the plank badly-bowed or knotty, there might be some chewing noises. But even if this happened, it would just mangle the wood, not the fellow pressing the green button, as the rollers rather than one's hand is feeding in the plank to the knives.
Lataxe
>smoothed 1/8" boards . . . forget about flattening. . . Stick the board to the bench with double sided tape. Plane it smooth with a super high angle plane. Lacking a decent high angle smoother, I'd use my toothing plane.You go man ! I am glad you said that. Is what I was going to say to OP but it slipped my mind.Hey are there pics on Knots of your shop, bench, work etc. I would like to look inrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Once again, thank you all sincerely for your diverse advice (and entertainment)!Now I have questions about what plane(s) to invest in first.
I realise that I really should go through the 6000+ posts under "jointer plane" in the "hand tools" forum, but I am lazy...Someone in that thread had posted a link to a compare/contrast between the Veritas bevel-up jointer plane and the Lie-Nielsen #7. Unfortunately, the link appears to be broken and I am really interested in hearing about that topic, because the Veritas BU jointer was #1 on my list to purchase.Okay, so here are my thoughts and I would absolutely welcome critiques of my understanding here.What I want to do with planes is (1) prepare edge surfaces for joining; (2) smooth resawn boards - that have been run thru a tablesaw, flipped, and run through on the other side to halve the thickness - and in the distant future when I can afford my Grizzly G0457, bandsawn; (3) smooth / level / flatten boards (but likely not severely bowed or cupped stock) and ~finished surfaces, for example a table top.The planes I am looking at are:Veritas bevel-up jointer plane or LN #7#4 1/2 smoothing plane by either Veritas or LNAm I at least in the ballpark for what I want to do? I already have a Stanley low angle block plane.I see the effective cutting angle on the veritas jointer is 37d and on the LN #7 is 45d. However, the Veritas has a neat fence option which, without benefit of experience or knowledge, seems like a really great add-on.And/or are there other planes that you guys would recommend instead of these? I remember roc had recommended a LN low angle jack plane. Would that be more versatile and therefore a better choice if I could only buy 1 or maybe 2 planes?Also - what is "shooting" ?Thanks.
Melissa
I'll leave it to others to tell you what plane to buy, but will say one thing on that: they all plane wood; a sharp blade is more important than most anything else; and long soles for flat/short for pretty. After that, it's personal preference.
As for shooting, it refers to squaring and straightening the edge of a board - such as to prepare to glue up edge joints in making a panel out of narrower stock. lots of details here starting at pg. 92:http://books.google.com/books?id=igob_Gaq3VcC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=planing+shooting&source=bl&ots=zScXkfPuav&sig=iPo3ESju7CSJryVJzpE30oNv6KU&hl=en&ei=S_z1Sa3jIsaJtgei5oWnDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#PPA92,M1
Melissa,
That question opens a large can of worms which also includes some snakes and 3 scorpions!
Three references that might help, here on the FWW site:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2418
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=29821
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=29680
There are loads more if you look in the "Tools" section and click-on or search-for "hand planes".
Although I am expecting a jack plane to arrive in a week or two, as the last plane-type to add to an unjustifiably large collection of the dang thangs, the jack is probably the "best" first plane you could buy - i.e. the most versatile. It will smooth, scrub, joint and shoot competantly, I am told, even though all those operations can be done better by four other more specialised planes.
Now, should it be metal or wood-bodied? In either case, what quality? And what brand? Worms come wrigglin' out at this point!
Well, I would buy an LV bevel up jack - if a rather nicer jack wasn't, even now, sailing here from New Zealand.
Lataxe
Melissa,
In a traditional English or American shop, you would have 4 planes for the purposes you mentioned specifically:
A short, fine mouthed smoother, with a very slightly cambered iron.
A medium length fore/jack plane with a heavily cambered blade and an open mouth for rough stock removal.
A long (try) plane with a mouth almost as tight as the smoother and with a blade cambered moderately for surface flattening, and sometimes edge straightening and squaring.
A long or longer plane than above with a wide blade, ground straight across, for edge work. This plane, now called a jointer was called a "glewing" plane in early 18th c texts, suggesting the specificity of it's use.
Adam
Oooooh now you have done it ! You have thrown open the corral gate and all the wild old stallions are loooosed. I hope your e-mail program is up to the onslaught.I am off to find some previous posts. Not that I am opinionated about this topic or anything . . . yah right where is that Advanced Search field ? ! !I gotta open a couple of more windows first . . .
What were those key words . . .
hmmmmm Oh yes . . .
There we go, now we're cook'in . . .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
You may enjoy, or be dismayed by, my over the top table pounding at the address bellow in which I ask the question:"why am I bothering to use this big A$$ plane when I can do it with the lighter planes". I am going to use the straight edge anyway."http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45667.1More to follow . . . hey this is easier than actually going down to my shop and using them right . . ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Here are some pics of my planes. The first photo is a Veritas bevel up jointer. The second photo is a Lie-Nielsen #7 jointer in a tool box among other rarely used planes. Note the big jointers are pretty much out of the way and the three you asked about earlier in this thread are on the bench all the time.A sharp eye will note two of the planes on the bench have the blades removed ( I had been sharpening them ).The last pic of the little #1 with the knife to give a sense of how small it is comes in handy and is very precise. I bought it on a whim as a keep sake/paper weight but find I use it allot. This is a limited edition and you will probably not see it much in this "white bronze " material.I like looking at the big jointer planes but not so sure I need them. If you are planing some fairly soft wood that is wavy and lumpy they would be useful. On the very hard woods like purple heart and bubinga the blade is so wide I don't get much depth and so resort to the scrub for about all of the flattening because the blade is narrow with allot of radius and so it keeps cutting deep even when the blade is getting a little dull.Rent or buy the DVD Coarse, Medium and Fine by Christopher Schwartzhttp://www.lostartpress.com/product/45979970-6a5d-4c3e-b33b-15646ae3a9df.aspxAlso can get it from various wood working tool suppliers when you order your planes.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/28/2009 1:57 am by roc
"What I want to do with planes is (1) prepare edge surfaces for joining; (2) smooth resawn boards - that have been run thru a tablesaw, flipped, and run through on the other side to halve the thickness - and in the distant future when I can afford my Grizzly G0457, bandsawn; (3) smooth / level / flatten boards (but likely not severely bowed or cupped stock) and ~finished surfaces, for example a table top."
Mellissa - Here's my opinion about Bevel Up vs. Bevel Down:
It's a preference. There is no "correct" choice. This is not a popular opinion - there are loads and loads of intense arguments about BU vs BD on every internet wood forum. To wit:
The only (and only) advantage to a Bevel Up plane is that it can be set up to plane end grain slightly better than a bevel down plane, because the low bed angle together with a narrow bevel can give you a lower effective cutting angle, which will give the appearance of a "sharper" blade. That said, lots of superior craftsmen use bevel down planes to "shoot" (plane and square) end grain.
Two "advantages" of bevel up planes are often cited - the ability to buy one plane body and several blades, grind/hone the blades to different bevel angles, and thereby get several set-ups from easy-effort standard angle (45 degrees) planing to high-effort, but reduced tear-out, high-angle planing on highly figured woods. What is left out of this discussion is that the same thing can be done with bevel-down planes - one just puts a back-bevel on the blade to get a higher planing angle, or gets an auxillary high angle frog (for the same purpose).
The second one has to do with cost. Because a BU plane has no frog, a lot of machining and some material costs are avoided, and they're therefore cheaper. However, this really only applies to new planes from Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen. Antique Stanley bevel-up bench planes are rare and expensive - the vast majority of inexpensive planes on the antique market are traditional, bevel-down designs.
Moreover, I think it's a mistake to save just a few dollars and get a tool that's not your preference and that you'll use for the next 40 years.
Finally, one very real difference between the LN/LV bevel-up designs and the Bevel-down equivalent is the ability to advance the blade during a planing stroke, and the lack of a lateral adjuster on the LN BU design. It's possible, though in my opinion, awkward, to advance the blade on a LN BU plane during the planing stroke. That is not possible with a LV design - the adjuster is under the blade and really difficult to reach from the planing grip, and the Norris-type adjuster used in these planes are not designed to be advanced/retracted with the lever cap appropriately tightened for planing use - you can "bell mouth" the threads by doing this.
The LN BU design doesn't include a lateral adjuster to move the cutting track of the blade from side-to-side - you must either loosen the lever cap and use your fingers to move the blade ever so slightly, or use a small brass hammer to tap the blade into the desired position. This isn't a terribly big deal (adjusting with a small hammer tap), but it can be very frustrating for a beginner.
OK, enough of the BU vs. BD stuff. Regardless of which you choose, both will work to plane and true boards.
To "4-square" rough lumber, you need 2 planes. To prepare the surface of a 4-squared board for a finish, you need 3 planes.
Those are: A roughing plane. This can be (and is traditionally) a "fore" plane, typically about 18" long - the Stanley #6 is appropriate here for furniture-scale work, as is a wooden fore plane. THese have heavily cambered (curved) irons to take off as much wood as possible, and a long sole to plane the high spots and skip the low spots. This can be done with a "jack" plane, or even a "scrub" plane - the jack is usually a Stanely #5 that's about 14" long, the "scrub" plane is a much smaller plane that's about 10" long. For a beginner, a fore plane is MUCH easier and much less frustrating to use - properly learning to use a jack or a scrub for this purpose requires that you read the surface of the board, and only pass the plane across the high spots - with a fore, you don't need to concern yourself with this, as the plane's sole length will take care of this for you.
Second - A jointer. This is typically a #7 or a #8 in the Stanley series, or about a 26" wooden plane (and that plane can be called a "try" plane - reference Adam's discussion). This plane smooths out the heavy furrows produced by the roughing plane, and its long length will further straighten/flatten the surface, and straighten the edges.
Third - A smoothing plane. This is a short plane with a very finely set mouth and very sharp iron used to prepare only the show surfaces of parts of furniture that will recieve a finish. Secondary surfaces that won't receive a finish (like the sides of drawers) are typically left in the state that the jointer plane left it - with a bit of tear-out here and there, and a very slightly scalloped surface (one can typically only feel this, not see it).
Finally, and I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating - you must have a good, flat bench to use planes to effectively flatten stock. The bench doesn't have to be fancy or expensive, but it must have a flat top that's thick enough not to flex during use. It would behoove you greatly to get Chris Schwarz' book before you buy your planes - reading it will be an eye-opener as to how to use planes to flatten and surface stock.
I think you forgot to ad:
"AND YOU KIDS STAY OFF MY LAWN!!"
I hope you feel better now that you set us straight about those holier-than-thou hand-tool ONLY users, whoever they are.
You seem to take personal offense that some people have methods of work that don't include the electric jointer. There might be a pill for that; you should ask your doctor.
S,
Come come - we do have a few posters who are somewhat zealous concerning the Superiority of Handtools so we should allow Rich to be the counter-ranter for the machine-men. After all, he does quite a good rant. :-)
In fact I believe he uses handtools just like thee and me, as well as the power tools. I see his righteous anger directed at the sentiment that a power tool (jointer) is somehow useless or an inferior a way of smoothing plank surfaces compared to the handplane.
As we fellows filled with sweetness and light know, there is room for all these gubbins and the methods that employ them. One chooses according to the mode of woodworking one prefers. Personally I don't want to miss any of them as I enjoy the toys as much as the things they make. Some lads (and lasses) seek a certain speed, noise-level or finished aspect so prefer to take one path or the other.
So, Adam likes only handtools because he does; and also because their traditional form and use provides him with that period look and feel to his pieces he wants. Many prefer instead the modern look of precision - the almost factory-made look of contemporary furniture styles. There's room for all I suppose, although I personally would burn everything that isn't Shaker, G&G or Cotswold; especially scuttle leggers and sculpti-furniture. (No I wouldn't).
Lataxe, still with a list of personally untried tools and methods of work to tick off.
I see his righteous anger directed at the sentiment that a power tool (jointer) is somehow useless or an inferior a way of smoothing plank surfaces compared to the handplane.
Just who exactly ever said anything even remotely close to this?
I see his self-righteousness directed at straw men.
Are these "scuttle legs"? I'm just about ready to burn this.Adam
>the "scuttle legs"Sweet ! Please show us the back splat. No fair teasing like this !Oooh your rectangular dog holes are showing . . . I won't tell anyone. Been known to use them my self.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Adam,
I've been following your trials and tribs with that chair in "the other" magazine, with a chuckle or two but also admiration for your attitude of have-a-go at a rilly, rilly hard thang. As you know, I'm afeared of them scuttlers since they disturb my sleep with Bad Scenarios. Also, my tastes don't run to all that swooping and drapery on the furniture. Periwig.
I'm sure your number two will be better and number three purfek; in a Cherubini fashion of course - lots of toolmarks albeit "lovely" form. :-)
But make sure you tie the nasty rascals up at night so that one cannot run of with a child into the dark woods.
Lataxe
What?? Why??? I see an excellent piece of handtool work before me! This is an oustanding level of skill here, if one doesn't even care for the style (I do very much so) the ability to accomplish this is an achievement, I am trying to get there!
Kevin
"I find all this ruckus and hullabaloo about hand tools amusing and at times irritating. A distinctive holier-than-thou attitude has been developing for a while among those who "pride" themselves in using ONLY hand tools. They seem to fall into 2 camps, those who use breath-takingly-expensive new versions (no offense intended, sir) and those who use ONLY "vintage" models."
Rich - I suspect you know this already, but there are other reasons to use hand tools than "just because", though I would hazard a guess that there are few of us with this goal in mind -
Some of us are reproduction furniture makers, that is, reproductions of pieces that were made before machine tools were either invented or in common use. That would include what some call William and Mary, Chippendale, Federal, Early Empire, and Early Shaker styles. There are certainly some very successful professional reproducers of these styles that work only with power tools - Glen Huey of Pop Woodworking is one. What these gentlemen (and ladies) make are modern representations of these styles, though, not reproductions.
There are a few of us that wish the output of our shop to be absolutely indistinguishable from one produced 200- 300 years ago, except for the age and wear. In these cases, it's a requirement that at least the last surface left before assembly/finishing be hand tools, because these tools leave distinctive marks and characteristics of accuracy that are inherent to the original pieces. An interior surface with planer/jointer marks or the random scratches left by a power sander are not acceptable, nor is the absolutely uniform thickness that a planer leaves behind and the interchangeable exactness of table-saw jig produced parts.
For those of us with a likewise viewpoint, the use of handtools isn't a romantic notion of "ways of work" or the desire to stay away from the potential danger of a power tool - it's a requirement to achieve a specific result.
I'm probably being too pedantic, but Glen Huey doesn't work entirely with power tools. It would be pretty difficult to shape say a block-front drawerfront without using planes, rasps, chisels etc., all of which he does. Then of course he finishes off with a power sander. Ah, well.
Jim
"I'm probably being too pedantic, but Glen Huey doesn't work entirely with power tools. It would be pretty difficult to shape say a block-front drawerfront without using planes, rasps, chisels etc., all of which he does. Then of course he finishes off with a power sander. Ah, well."
I think it'd be really hard to find someone that has never used a hand tool at all - even the most die-hard power tool junkies in my area have at least a set of bench chisels. And I'll freely admit that my interpretation of what Glen does is from reading his articles, blog posts, and books. I've never met the guy in person.
I should also say that I do very much respect his work, as I would any accomplished woodworker, no matter their methods. It's just that what he produces is -different- than what someone like Gene Landon, Mack Headley and others making true reproductions do.
>puzzle at the separate jointer-planer machine syndrome you suffer in the US of ASuffer is right ! I thought it crazy that we couldn't get the combo machines. When I got all excited and decided to get a combo even if I had to order from Europe I started looking into it seriously.The prices were breath taking ! ! ! More than three thousand dollars for the cheepies ! ! !It has been years since i looked but I think the decent machines were six or more ? ! ? ! ?The decision was an easy one. Same one I made when I decided with much determination to buy a Ferrari. I really liked the way the Ferrari 250 GTO looked. Wire wheels and all ! Yep that is the one for me I said. How much can it cost now ? Brand new it was a mere $10,000. Then I looked at the price. In the nineties they were going for a million dollars. Last I looked a year or so ago . . . three million dollars.Coarse if you are willing to lend me the money . . . just for a little while . . . ( : )I realize that in the last year or so combo machines have become available at lower prices. I woooood like to have one.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/25/2009 9:07 pm by roc
<<we Ypeans do puzzle at the separate jointer-planer machine syndrome you suffer in the US of A; but are even more non-plussed by the fact that jointers are 6" or 8" whilst planers are 13". Eh? >>I know what we need! A machine that does all the jobs. One of those European table saw (slider of course)/band saw/miter saw/planer/jointer/shaper/router/edge trimmer/sander (belt, random orbit, oscillating)and finally, finishing applicator machines. And the wood dust would be converted to heat and electricity to run itself. It would occupy a 10 foot x 10 foot area. Stick in a log and out comes a table. Inlaid of course.Sorry, I got carried away. :-)Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Peter,
Where can I get that combi-machine and a half you describe! It will save me much angst, work and time. Hang on, though; I would only find some other difficult hobby to create the angsts and fritter my life away solving strange problems with esoteric gubbins.
****
My theory concerning the proliferation of inadequate power tools in the US of A is that a combination of the huge sheds you all have (which can be seen from space and have 5 acres of floor space each- minimum) and the entrepreneurial spirit (a gizmo for all niches in the WW ecology) means that you are encouraged to buy and make a thousand tools and jigs, many of which are support-systems for one of the inadequate machines, which have not changed since they were invented by someone named Tabitha in 1874.
Thus we have geet big cross-cut boxes made of 23 sheets of MDF and a half-ton of brackets and bolts, to replace a nice and proper cross-cut carriage on the TS. And so forth.
I tellee - you need WW missionaries from Yurp, bearing finely designed and engineered German machines of grace and utility. Soon there would be a gigantic scrapheap of ole Unisaw clones sufficient to build several aircraft carriers or even a scaled-up version of the Eiffel tower in Las Vegas. And everyone would have a 16" planer-thicknesser, even Adam (although he would take the motor out and have a boy cranking vigorous-like on a large handle).
Lataxe, from Civilisation, across the water.
Lataxe,
although he would take the motor out and have a boy cranking vigorous-like on a large handle
No sir, that is simply not true and you know it. You know darn well Adam would provide a proper bicycle seat for the lad to sit on as he pedaled to Adams chisel wavin.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No sir, that is simply not true and you know it. You know darn well Adam would provide a proper bicycle seat for the lad to sit on as he pedaled to Adams chisel wavin.
And even a 1/2 hp motor for assist!
AND, is it past or near for you Dinner with your wonderful wife?
I am an english tainted with a bit of Scott 4th generation woodworker !! My great grandfather was a cabinetmaker who worked in Dublin on the titanic before coming to America on a boat, which he refinnished the captin's quarters along with others to pay for his familiys tickets. Obviously he used a lot of hand planes and I saw a picture of him in his early american cabinet /furniture shop (another american thing is to separate those two out!) and man the the cannon ball shoulders and big guns he had where bloody impressive as hell! So was the arthritis that tortured him before and after his career!
I agree there is a place for both machine and handplanning/tool working with the latter leaving a one-of-a kind very distinguished finnish. I am not sure why we have a habbit of having smaller joiner/ bigger planner here but as you and others point out, a 6 inch jointer does well for most of the stuff we build furniture wise especially. The creative use of other tools to accomplish or bridge the difference is hallmark to quality american woodworking I think. just curious, I assume with your set up (larger or same size joiner and planner) that your pannels are natuarlly wider and perhaps you glue up less pannels?
Kevin
Rich,Nice pulpit. Not quite the response I would expect from you. If folks don't get exposure to options how do they learn? Suggesting an alternative is a long way from advocating as you assert.If I could afford the freight I would have a combo machine like the folks across the pond have, but here in the new world the manufacturers have their own thoughts on how a shop should be configured. The only machines currently available are 600 lb cast iron brutes.Is your way better? For you it obviously is, but for many it may not be. If someone is starting out and doesn't know where they are heading why go hog wild on equipment that may be under utilized. I don't feel that I was negative about the usefulness of the jointer, it was my second major machine purchase.
Simple fact is you do not need a jointer to prepare a piece of wood for resawing. One flat reference face and a lunch box planer - minus the sled - will do the job just fine.
This makes it not the required machine that you make it out to be. For Melissa's purposes at this time it is definitely a nice to have. If I want to make things your way, then I didn't need to buy the riser kit for my bandsaw. No need to resaw anything wider than 6" because 5" is your idea of what I should do??.
Of course doing all of the setup to be able to surface 10" stock on my 8" jointer is OK because that is what you do so it can't be more difficult???
But then you speak from the 12" combination machine user group who never uses anything wider than 5". With that investment I can now understand your position. At least you managed to stir up some interesting discussion, and from that I hope Melissa is able to move forward in her woodworking adventure.Don
>you CAN perform EVERY power tool operation using nothing but a routerOh thats for the intermediate level. When a guy gets really good all he needs is a rock. Of corse you have to have the proper attachments and guides.Any one interested in Mastering this elite and esoteric skill please e-mail me and I will sign you up for our next class and mail to you a catalog. All sales final. Results may vary. Woodworking with rocks is an inherently dangerous activity. Participants assume responsibility for all injuries and accidental amputations.: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
you CAN perform EVERY power tool operation using nothing but a router.. I tent to agree BUT.. Each tool has it place or us 'NUTS' at woodwroking would not have them?
That's funny!! All inclusive statements are just what you are hinting at with the "rock" tool course and no guarantees or liabilities associated! I do beleive that any tool, provided it has the ability, can be used to a far greater extent than most are. But yes, there are absolutelly limitations, one being time if nothing else! thanks for the laugh !
Kevin
Rich,When talking down to the masses with such authority, you need to ensure that you have done your home work.".... It's an exercise in frustration and there have been several posts here from folks who have never gotten it to work."I did a site search on this site for the exact phrase "planer sled" that resulted in 50 messages on the subject. The only ones who say it doesn't work are are contributors like yourself who are merely speculating on the merits of this jig. I could not find even one that where the contributor expressed any frustration with the jig.Don
Melissa,
Here are some links to FWW stuff on this site that may be of interest in considering your question and it's implications. You need to be a paid-member here to get at some of them.
And there are many, many more such articles. I searched the "Skills & Techniques" section of this site using the search-term "milling lumber".
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/getting-started/
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/skillsandtechniques/skillsandtechniquesarticle.aspx?id=5293
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2652
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28108
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=5245
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30212
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=30014
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=27779
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=28522
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28408
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesAllAbout.aspx?id=2982
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24118
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2452
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2022
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2198
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2293
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24145
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2665
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2541
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2864
Lataxe
Melissa,
There are many ways to achieve almost any goal in woodworking.
So I thought I would throw another surfacing option your way.
The V Drum sander from Stockroom Supply and others.
http://www.stockroomsupply.com/
I built the 18" unit from kit about 5 years ago and picked up the 30" Flatmaster last year.
It is a nice little design that is quiet, doesn't flood the shop with a lot of mess and delivers a lot of functionality. With the fence attachment you can obtain a decent edge.
Tearout - none
Feed according to direction of grain - No
Pitch, glue, paint concerns - No
Because there is no mechanical feed, the fences and featherwheels make sanding wide faces much better.
This might also be worth looking at.
Don
Melissa, are you still here? I just read the this entire thread through and my head is spinning; if I were you I'd have run for cover some time ago.
I'm also relatively new to woodworking, having been doing it as a hobby for only a few years. I've read a lot of Knots threads in that time, and it's always fun to see the gang come out swinging.
Here's my admittedly odd perspective: I'm limited by a very constrained budget, and as a friend told me when I started making furniture, this can be a very expensive hobby, if you let it be. I can't. Also, I think what tools one uses or needs depends a great deal on (1) how much space one has, (2) the nature of that space and (3) the time one spends woodworking.
I've been building a variety of things for a few years now, and I've never used a jointer and have used a planer maybe twice. I have no ideological reasons for this, I just don't have room for them. Nor do I have the kind of dust-collection system that I believe is essential for anyone who uses a power jointer and planer and who wants to stay healthy.
For stationary power tools, my workshop contains a tablesaw, a bandsaw, and a router table, and I use all three of them a lot. I've done a fair amount of resawing on my 14-inch bandsaw. I use only rough stock, and I flatten and joint it using old Stanley hand planes that I bought either on e-bay or from Walt at Brass City Records & Tools in Waterbury, Ct. Almost all these planes were inexpensive and none of them required more than a couple of hours of tuning up. Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve to squaring and flattening boards using hand planes, but in my experience it's pretty short. I also think the amount of muscle and cardiovascular effort required to use hand planes this way is often greatly exaggerated (and I'm not in great shape).
I think a jointer and planer are essential if you have a deadline for a piece or are taking on commissions, or you just want to get the pieces made as quickly as possible. But if there's no real rush (except a spouse asking, "Are you every going to finish that thing?") and if noodling around the workshop with the music turned on is half the fun of woodworking (as it is for me), they are definitely optional tools whose expense can be safely avoided. I also think there are some species prone to tearout—hard maple, for example—that may be more efficiently worked with handplanes.
Have fun.
Norman
Edited 5/15/2009 10:27 am ET by nboucher
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