After a house move, I no longer have room for a bandsaw. Losing access to a bandsaw (as well as some other large power tools) because of the space constraints has prompted a move to greater hand tool use.
I want to resaw boards with a panel saw. The boards will not be huge – typically 8 – 16 inches long and no more than 6 inches wide. Mostly they’ll be hardwoods such as oak, cherry, maple, beech, iroko, teak and similar.
There are lots of expensive panel saws on the market: Lie-Neilsen, Badaxe, Wenzloff, and the exquisite Skelton. (I have some Wenzloff backsaws that are very good). They cost a lot. Also, various articles suggest they need to be sharpened and set regularly if used for a lot of resaw ripping. Some WW experts even suggest that the blades of expensive panel saws are also too thin and flexy, to no real purpose for, and to the detriment of, wide-plank resawing.
My question: will a less expensive panel saw of the Bahco XC or similar type – with a thicker blade, wider kerf and “hardpoint (i.e. longer-lasting but not resharpenable) teeth – do a reasonable resawing job with the plank size and wood-types mentioned above?
Lataxe
Replies
I've had good results with a Japanese style razor saw. I find that it tracks better in the cut than my western style saws and works well for the size boards you are describing.
Having a saw with a wider kerf is going to make it a lot harder to resaw. Thinner is better, as long as it isnt too prone to buckle and kink.
The thing with hand saws is youd end up needing a variety. Different lengths, thicknesses, point number, filing, set -- different woods, thicknesses, moisture content, etc all benefit from different saws.
Mr Reb,
I have some Japanese saws and have done a few test rips with those having ripping teeth. I found two problems, one due to me the inept user but the other due to the nature of the saw.
I made the mistake of putting pressure on the saw to hasten the cutting. Inevitably the thin blade bent just enough to send the saw off the line.
I had another go and was careful to let the saw do the cutting without putting on pressure. It seemed to take an age to cut through just a couple of inches, although the cuts were dead straight and left a very clean surface.
Perhaps I need a different Japanese saw? Those I have seem to have rather a lot of teeth per inch but I read that something between 4 and 9 tpi is best for resawing....?
Lataxe
A Japanese Ryoba is the way to go. The rip teeth will do the job, even on hard maple.
Mr C2,
Ha ha - more reasons to buy many man-toys (I mean essential tools). :-)
I viewed a vid by one Paul Sellers who compared an inexpensive Chinese-made Western-style ripping panel saw with the Lie-Nielsen ripping panel saw. He found no difference other than that the LN was more prone to go off-line as the blade was thinner than that of t'other saw. However, their kerfs (tooth-set) were the same width. Hmmmm.
I have read reviews of various panel saws that mention not just the thinner blade but also a narrower kerf to match, meaning less effort to saw. But the flexy-blade issue did put me off a bit. After all, Western saws cut on the push stroke and ripping a plank needs quite a lot of push, which presumably increases the likelihood of thin blade bend and wandering off the line .... ?
Still, fellows do resaw successfully with panel saws so .....
Those Bahco and similar saws have both a thicker (less flexy) blade but also the wider tooth-set. More effort required and a greater loss of wood to sawdust. Still, I am a big strong lad. The question is, will such saws cut straight and true?
Lataxe
Japanese Ryoba. You cannot go wrong. I have used various western-style panel saws and none compare. Now back saws are a different story. I love a Japanese Dozuki for dovetails but a western-style push for tenons.
Actually, I'm not a Mr., I'm a Mrs., but that's OK.
I've been using a Kataba saw that I got form Woodcraft years ago. It's actually a crosscut saw, but seems to work well for my purposes and leaves me with just a little clean up. I try to let the saw do the work and it doesn't take too long. But that being said, the wider the board, the longer it takes.
I've been thinking of getting a 12" Ryoba saw, which has rip teeth on one edge and crosscut on the other edge and see how that works. The rip teeth on it are 6 TPI whereas my Kataba saw is more like 22 TPI.
I have two Ryobas. I highly recommend them.
Work harder, not smarter? Framesaw or ripsaw...eat your wheaties!
Framesaw!? Those are bigger than the bandsaw I just sold because there was no room for it in the new workshop. Also, who will be the underdog? :-)
Lataxe
Japanese saws vary considerably in quality. I have a dozen or so and of these about half are OK, two are extremely good and the rest are pretty poor. Mostly you get what you pay for. I have re-sawn successfully in the sort of size you mention with one of my very good Ryoba saws but you also stand a chance of buckling the saw if not careful. If I had to do it on a regular basis I would use a panel saw but a less expensive one than the top enders - probably something like the one Paul Sellers uses in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP1rAM_gnGI
He might have resharpened the saw for rip but you can pick up such a saw for £20 or so.
I don't know what you're picturing, but a framesaw is not a large item. Blackburn tools sells a kit, but you could make your own.
I agree that re-sawing by hand takes hard work and concentration, regardless of the saw. The more you work at it, the better you get. It's great cardio. You need to stretch your wrists and sometimes rest a day or two if you get sore elbows. It's hard on your wrists and elbows, especially if you use a white-knuckled, hard grip. Form makes a difference as you probably know. I use a mix of new and old hand saws, panel saws. a bow saw, and a frame saw of different thicknesses. I find that for wide, thick boards and logs a combination of a 6 TPI handsaw to form a guiding kerf followed by a frame saw (only until you get to the end of the handsaw kerf) is the fastest, most accurate way (with the saws I use). The frame saw has about 4 TPI and cuts faster but is harder to keep on track especially on the side you cannot see. That's why a guiding kerf established by the handsaw helps. You have to work on both sides of the piece. You have to find a secure way to hold the work.
Frame saw - I'd assumed the old British thing: a very large two-man saw as used over a pit to saw tree trunks into logs. What you call a frame saw I think I would call a bow saw. I do have one of (your) frame saws and also two metal bow saws of the tubular steel frame kind. I will try both for resawing.
Meanwhile I borrowed a Bahco hardpoint saw that the owner claimed to be still sharp. I resawed a 6 inch wide by 12 inch long by 1+ inch thick piece of afromosia into two decent half inch pieces in about 12 minutes, using the start-at-a corner technique. The Bahco wide saw kerf is a bit wasteful but the blade is very stiff and doesn't easily wander. 9 tpi and seemingly sharp enough.
The hard work to resaw is no problem - good exercise, as ecyor notes! The hard work I want to avoid is that involved with having to sharpen loadsa teeth on a saw, hence the interest in that Bahco, which stays sharp a long time but can't be sharpened once blunt. (Phew).
More experimentation needed, though - especially with the Japanese saws, for those wee planks of more exotic stuff I don't want to turn into mostly sawdust but, rather, nice thick "veneers".
Lataxe
PS A thought - won't the frame of a frame/bow saw stop the resaw when the frame hits the top end of the plank being resawn?
The frame/bow saw can be set at an off angle to pass by the top of the plank.
The framesaw's blade is in the center of and facing perpendicular to a rectangular frame and does not rotate. The tubular bowsaw is meant for trimming branches and other light greenwood tasks, the blade is fixed in line with the bow and held with considerable tension...I do not believe they rotate either. I have seen wooden-framed bowsaws of the turnbuckle or rope-tensioned variety that do have rotating blades, but they are not meant for resawing.
Frame saw for sure (ECE or Ulmia), but it'll feel awkward at first. Stick with it.
Mr Stanford,
Is that you from Knots then? If so, long time no see.
Those ECEs and Ulmias look well made but perhaps I could make such a thing myself? The opinion of the main EU seller is that the blades are not sharp enough so require the buyer to sharpen them. I have no inclination to do that. me.
The saws can be bought with a Japanese blade, which blades have impulse-hardened teeth and are very sharp indeed. And long lasting. (Or so goes the sales blurb). Perhaps I just need a blade and time to make a saw frame.
Meanwhile I continue to experiment with Japanese saws and that Bahco. I am getting better at it. The Japanese saws take longer but go straight if well-started and not pressed on. The Bahco goes faster but creates more sawdust and a rougher finish. The Bahco can be pressed on and steered, though.
Would you care to explain why a frame saw is best? I enjoy being ejikated, as you know. :-)
Lataxe
It's me Lataxe. Good to see you online again. Brings back memories for sure.
I like a frame saw because it won't whip and it's thinner. The rip teeth will need sharpening from time to time, perhaps even when new. A Japanese style blade is available to fit the ECE frame saw - called a Turbo Cut blade but I've never used one. It will be sharp out of the box and stay that way a while. It's impulse hardened like the saw I believe you have now.
Be well.
Greetings from West Wales, then, Charles. I'm wondering now if there's any other old Knotters about this place? It all went quiet when many took a dislike to the new FWW regime and formed The Burl forum - but that seems to have gone quiet too now .....?
I have an inexpensive frame saw that I got during a green woodworking phase some years ago. The frame doesn't seem too bad but the blade is hopeless. I'm wondering if I can just buy a better blade for it. On the other hand, it would make something of a pattern for making my own.
In all events, I'll obtain a decent frame saw one way or another and try it for the resawing. The practice with a Japanese saw and with the Bahco is seeing improvements of technique (less woggle i' the cut-line) but still taking too long or wasting too much wood as sawdust. Perhaps the right blade in a framesaw will do it?
Lataxe
I'm not sure where everybody ended up. The Burl is defunct from what I understand. Maybe in the fullness of time people will gravitate back to this forum. I look back on those days and wish that I could take back about 95% of my posts! I'm sure you'd agree. Oh well...
Here's a source, though in the U.S.:
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/search.aspx?find=frame+saw+blades
Dieter Schmid in Germany:
https://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.html
Good luck.
Charles,
I greatly enjoyed your Knots posts and learnt quite a bit from them. All the Knots posters had something to offer - some of them a great deal. It was my woodworking school yard for a good long while.
Highland can't sell to Europe at the moment, or so says it's notice when I go there. Who knows why. Dieter Schmid has plenty of framesaws, including that Blackburn kit to make a proper one - the one with the blade in the middle of a horizontal frame. It looks the business but just the kit is very expensive.
https://www.fine-tools.com/rouboframesaw.html
Could the ladywife be persuaded to get on the other end? Unlikely! :-)
Lataxe
If you still have your table saw buy a thin 7 1/2 or 8 inch makita saw blade and run a kirf around the plankFailing that use the thinest blade in your 45. Failing that use the thin fly cutter in your router to do the same.Then take your fathers rip saw,sharpen the teeth,and go at it
Good idea for an old post, paulshop. I don't own a table saw or band saw yet. I have used a circular saw with a plywood guide to start a kerf like you described to guide my hand sawing when the log or thick board was especially wide and had difficult grain. It helped speed up and get through the cut. Of course the kerf was a little wider, and it still takes some care to stay on kerf by alternating sawing on each side, etc.
Badaxe saws has a kerfing plane and frame saw for the “cordless-re-sawing”. Their website is also a good resource for all things saw related.
http://badaxetoolworks.com/kpfs.php
I am a hand-tool only woodworker. My father in law calls me a luddite. Nonetheless, I use a Japanese Ryoba saw for all of my rough sawing needs. I purchased the Ryoba for about $65 CDN (probably about $50USD). I built my massive workbench out of hard maple with that little Ryoba. It is by far the best saw that I have ever owned or ever will own. I highly recommend it.
In the past 5 years, I have used the non-sharpenable induction hardened saws, the affordable Spears and Jackson resharpenable saw Paul Sellers recommends, and a Lie-Nielsen panel saw to resaw wood similar to what you want to do. All three have gotten the job done. If it were me, and I was uncertain, I'd start with the reshaprenable Spear and Jackson saw that Paul Sellers recommends. It works well and the handle can be refined to be a bit more ergonomical.
Move
Lataxe, what did you go with.., it HAS been over a year.
Apologies for not answering sooner....
Many modes of resawing were tried, with various handsaws. I ended up discovering what I could sensibly resaw by hand and what I couldn't (or wouldn't).
Without a dedicated frame saw of the Blackburn or similar kind, I decided that hand resawing larger planks wasn't for me. I did one of cherry 5 ft long by two inches thick by 7 inches wide, using a kerfing plane/saw to mark out the cut line 'round the edge of the plank. I used a new Bahco hard point saw. It took A Very Long Time.....
The results were not too bad although I wasted as much, if not a little more, than I would have using the large bandsaw I used to have. The kerfing plane saw blade (see pics) is 1.8mm in the guide-kerf it makes; and the clean up of the sawn sides wasted another millimetre or slightly more - a 3mm or greater wastage all told. The bandsaw I used to have did better - when it was cutting well with no wander, which was always a risk unless very carefully set up for the resaw each time.
I found I needed a kerfing plane/saw to outline the intended cut, as it's very hard to keep a panel saw cutting to nothing but a pencil line down such a long thick plank,
even using the approved techniques. A kerf all 'round the plank definitely helps to keep the saw on track throughout the whole cut.
I tried a thinner guide kerf using just a wheel cutting gauge line deepened with a marking knife, in conjunction with a large ryoba saw (1 ft long blade, 3.5 - 4" wide, 4-8 graduated tpi, 1.2mm kerf). This did work (on a smaller plank of black walnut) but the guide kerf wasn't really deep enough to guide the saw as well. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to keep a large and relatively thick-bladed ryoba on line than it is a panel saw, because of the pulling action of a Japanese saw vs the pushing action of a Western panel saw.
It still took A Very Long Time.
******
So, now I do this:
1) Large planks...
... get part-sawn through on the table saw, on both long edges, going as deep as 2.5 inches per side with a rip blade of 24 teeth and a 3.2mm kerf. I use feather boards, a tall rip fence and a lot of care. The riving knife and feather boards, along with a half length (finishes just before the back of the blade) tall fence makes this safe.
The planks are flattened, thicknessed and squared on the planer-thicknesser first. The unsawn section down the middle of the plank is then sawn through with the Bahco hand saw or the large ryoba rip teeth. When the two halves fall apart, there's just a small strip in the middle to take off with a hand plane. The table saw blade cuts accurately and square to the plank edge, so the wastage is just 3.2mm plus a smidgin to plane off the very minor table saw blade marks.
2) Small planks ....
... have the intended cut line marked with the kerfing plane/saw and are then resawn with the large ryoba rip teeth. This can be done in a reasonable time and ends up
with a 2mm wastage (the 1.8mm of the kerfing plane saw blade plus a teeny bit planed off the resawn sides to erase the saw marks.
With nicely figured small pieces/planks, the saving of even 1.0 - 1.5mm in the resawing is worth it. If I cut a nice chunk of 100mm X 100mm figured sapele, say, to make little box sides of 8mm X 100mm, I can get 9 or even 10 pieces with hand resawing as opposed to 7-8 pieces using the table saw.
If I can find a thinner but effective kerfing plane saw blade, I could probably use a smaller (thinner kerf) ryoba to waste even less in the resawing - perhaps 1.5mm per cut instead of 2mm. Again, worth saving when highly figured woods are being resawn into multiple thin parts.
**********
I suppose a large and dedicated frame saw of the type used by those resawing logs might be the answer to hand resawing larger planks. But they are big and expensive to buy, even if you make a goodly part of them yourself. Perhaps if I was a metal worker too..... and had somewhere to store such a big beast. :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe,
For your smaller pieces you might look into Grammercy Tools' veneer saw. I believe they make a flat top blade for it and the handle is substantial enough that you should be able to jig it up easily.
That whole thing does NOT look like fun to me!
I have no idea, but this would be a great question to put to the WoodTalk podcast as Shannon is a hand-tool expert. Worth asking STL too, as I'd like to hear the discussion...
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