Replies

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 17, 2003 11:05pm | #1

   The wire wheel won't dig rust out of the pits. Electrolysis will.

2. 
   b1gcountry | Jan 18, 2003 12:23am | #2

   The wire wheel will work, and it will get most of the rust. Chances are, if that's the first thing you thought of, that will probably work better for you.

   Tom

1. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 18, 2003 06:02am | #3

   Cast iron is porous and will absorb all kinds of stuff (oil, dirt, etc).  Rust will even be inside the surface to some degree.  Electrolysis will pull most stuff out and will neutralize the rust.  I crank the amperage up to 20-25 amps (on the bigger planes) and let them go for 24 hrs.  That blows everything off and out, even most of the old japanning.  After electrolysis, scrub with a scotch brite pad and HOT soapy water.  Wear rubber gloves.  Rince well and make sure you bake out the moisture before re-japanning.  250 degrees for 1 hr is good enough for that.  

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

1. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 18, 2003 09:15am | #4

   I've not heard of using electrolysis. Is it an easy thing to do? Any instructions? I can think of many uses for a thing like that that strips rust etc.. if I'm understanding all this correctly.

   Thanks,

   N

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 18, 2003 09:29am | #5

   Do a search here. Use the Advanced Search button near the top of the left hand frame. We've discussed it several times since I've been here. If you do a Google search, or other net search, add rust removal to your search string to filter out a lot irrelevant results.

2. 
   nhlett | Jan 19, 2003 03:29pm | #9

   Here's a very comprehesive description of the the process you might want to look at:

   http://users.interconnect.net/nlindsey/rusty2l/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm#Introduction

3. 
   OLDWING | Jan 18, 2003 09:58am | #6

   A lot of the old tool collectors will advise you not to wire brush old tools because it basically destroys the tool's value.  If you must have the plane looking like new, and never plan on trading or reselling it, then fine, do whatever it takes to get them clean.  But evidence of wire brushing will ruin a true collector. 

   Electro-zapping of rust will take off all the rust, to be sure, but it can also take off the jappaning as well.  Try it on a junk piece first.  You need a good size plastic or glass container, big enough to hold the tool, water enough to cover the tool, a sacrificial piece of iron or steel and a battery charger.  Put both tool and the sacrificial iron in the water and attach the positive clamp to the sacrificial iron and the negative clamp to the plane or whatever tool you're cleaning.  Don't allow the tool to touch the sacrificial iron.  Put the battery charger on the lowest setting and then check periodically for progress. 

   Be aware that a tool cleaned in this manner will be exceedingly bare and will be prone to rust.

   Bruce

4. 
   sailalex | Jan 18, 2003 03:56pm | #7

   Dale,

    There is an excellent book, " Restoring, Tuning, & Using Classic Woodworking Tools" by Michael Dumbar, $20, that you might get before starting. Dunbar has written a lot of good books on hand planes; an experienced hand tool cabinet maker referred it to me and I gained a lot from it.

    Alex

1. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 18, 2003 08:21pm | #8

   Something I forgot.  If the plane has a heavy coat of oil or grease, then you need to soak it in acetone first.  The oil will act as an insulator to the electrolysis.  Also, with heavy japanning, you will need to use paint stripper first.  Sometimes I do the electrolysis twice.  The first pass loosens the paint so that it can be removed fairly easily.  Then it goes gack to the electrolysis tank again for another 12 hrs.

   Battery chargers will work, but if running under 10 amps you will need to let them run for 48 hrs or more.  24 hrs will be ok with 10 amps for #4, or smaller, planes.  With #5-#8 planes, I kick the current up to 20-25 amps.  The water in the tank will get up to 150-180 degrees.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

5. 
   jgaiennie | Jan 19, 2003 09:37pm | #10

   Dale,

   I just cleaned up three of these.  They came out great! - well partially.

   A friend called me up and said: "Hey, I got a bunch of old tools just rusting away over here.  You want to come get them?"

   I said: "Well, I don't know..."

   Not really.

   Amongst the treasure were three nice old rusty and dull hand planes, one of which I belive to be a Stanley, and two of which I know to be Stanleys, all late 19th century or perhaps up to 1904.  I think I've got that right.  I dated them using a nice web page that had a method for dating them - sorry I don't remember the name or web address.  I probably found it thru a Google search.

   I didn't think of researching how to clean them.  Just clean them up.  Right?

   For you purists and true plane lovers, you may want to close your eyes for the next several sentences.  I sprayed them with a Gunk Silicon lubricant (good product), disassembled them and went at it with a 6" wire wheel on a bench top grinder and a small brass wire brush.  Everything was going great and they looked so good and I really got a great pleasure from this aquisition and cleaning job.  Then, while power brushing one of the nicer ones (I think the oldest - pre 1886 if I remember right) I snaged the edge of the plane body in the wire wheel and it was tossed out of my hands to the slab floor and broke.  Yep... broke.  I looked at it with disbelief.  Denial.  Refusal to accept that it really broke.  But it didn't change reality.  I broke it.  Not into two pieces, but the sort of crack on one side from the sole just in front of the blade opening up the side and out the top edge.  Not on the bottom at all.  I believe Stanley had so many cracks like this, that in later models they reinforced that weak point with a modification to their design.  So I got out my old trusty stick arc welder and with a 1/16" rod, went at it again.  I side ground the crack longitudinally to make a slot for the weld metal and laid a bead on the body of this 100+ year old plane.  My gut had felt better.  Then with the side grinder again, ground the weld metal even with the rest of the side of the body. 

   Functionally, its working very well so far.  Plane bottom is flat as a pancake - ok... flatter.  Asthetically, I hate it.  In retrospect, I'd be much more careful with the final grinding work - or more so, with power brushing.  The plane still looks good.

   Now that I bored you all with that war story, the moral of the story:  The results with the wire wheels, IMO, are just fine for a user plane and I personally have no regret in using the wire wheel, excepting my snag and failure to hold on of course.  Yes, if you buff the dickens out of any area in one direction on a course wheel, you will see marks in the finish - even idy bitty grooves.  But with care, good vision, and a fine wheel you won't damage your plane - assuming you don't toss it too far.  For collectors items, some likely see it differently.

   I got three great planes out of the deal.  :)  Only one of 'em has a body repair.

   jdg

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/19/2003 1:42:32 PM ET by jdg

6. 
   domermatt | Jan 19, 2003 11:57pm | #11

   You can also use a lubricating oil and elbow grease to clean it up. If the parts are really rusted, soak them in motor oil for a while and then use WD-40 or mineral spirits as a lubricant while scrubbing the plane with steel wool ( I use 3M's imitation steel wool ) or with sanding sponges available from 3M. I've also had luck with 400 or 600 grit sandpaper. Light rust can be removed with lubricating oil or mineral spirits and the above abrasives. Take your time and go light, and scrub just enough to remove the rust. After the tools are clean put a coat of Renaissance Wax on them to keep the rust away.

   While there are a lot of proponents of electrolysis, there are just as many folks (including me) who believe removing the japanning destroys part of the value of a plane. While this is not much of an issue with your average run of the mill Stanley Bailey, it can be for any plane of value. So before you go using electrolysis, make sure your plane isn't rare or valuable. If the plane only has light rust, don't go ruining the japanning by using electrolysis-- in other words use electrolysis only when no other means will remove the rust.

   Matt
1. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 20, 2003 08:53am | #12

   I say this about restoring planes -

   1) if your a user, then make your planes work well, first.

   2) if your a collector with the idea of passing your planes on to future generations, then do as you please.

   3) if your a dealer with the sole intent of making profit, then do nothing to your planes. 

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

1. 
   EdHarrison | Jan 20, 2003 09:04pm | #13

   Mike,

   I've got two planes I've restored to be everyday shop users. One is a Stanley sweetheart era No. 4 and the other is a Miller's Falls No. 3-size (M-F calls it No. 8). It's from the M-F era when the bodies and frogs were black and the totes and knobs were heavy red lacquer. Both have replacement Hock irons, now.

   The problem I have with both is that the totes tend to get loose over the course of a couple weeks. I keep torquing them down but in two to three weeks they're a little bit loose again. On the Millers falls plane the lateral adjustment lever also flops around so when the tote gets loose it feels like you are picking up something that's broken. Thinking of trying to peen down the rivet that holds the lateral adjustment lever. Any thoughts? Is the only reason the totes keep getting loose because it's winter and they keep drying out/ slightly shrinking?

   Other than that, both planes work well and since I got them both free, I'm happy with them. The M-F plane came out of an old barn and was covered with rust and had a mud dauber's nest between the tote and the frog. You know you're in for a job of restoration when the first step is point a garden hose set on "sharp stream" at it. Ed

1. 
   lucaire2000 | Jan 20, 2003 09:11pm | #14

   Did you ever hear of a guy in Chicago that advertized in FWoodworking by the name of Evans Precision? I sent a Bailey jointer plane to him and never got it back . Taunton said he was behind on his ad. bill. I am looking for others who got stiffed.

1. 
   EdHarrison | Jan 20, 2003 09:32pm | #15

   No Sir, unfortunately I didn't. Sounds like a low-life of a business person. Hope you track him down. Maybe others can help. Ed

2. 
   jgaiennie | Jan 21, 2003 04:11am | #19

   Ok, this is the last little bit of surviving liberal coming out in me:

   Ripped off?

   It seems cool hand is the victim of in-action, not ripping off (judging from what has been said).  I don't want to take the stance of defending the Precision guy in Chicago, just I am cautious about persecution of someone for inaction and then berating them in a public forum.  There's a chance he's a low life.  And there's a chance that he's distracted with his wife's newly discovered cancer or something.  And there's a chance that there are other complications in this person's life that none of us can begin to understand.  Is it possible that he met a tragic death?  To me, being "ripped off" takes malice.  Has this guy sold that plane?  Has there been futher correspondence in which promises were made that have not been lived up to?

   I just couldn't resist offering this little bit of human reaction to you guys letting him have it.  And you may be correct.  It's just not so cut and dry to me from what's been said.

   All the best luck in recovering that plane cool hand.

   jdg

3. 
   EdHarrison | Jan 21, 2003 05:30am | #20

   Yeah you're right, JDG. Could be a whole 'nother story going on here. I was a little bit quick to judge.

   Hope the guy gets his plane back. I just got my jointer plane tuned up and working right and I like it! Ed

   Edited 1/20/2003 9:37:30 PM ET by Ed from Mississippi

4. 
   lucaire2000 | Jan 24, 2003 02:34am | #21

   You are right, to say he ripped me off is an unfair judgement. I really did not mean to say his name on forum but how else do you follow up on a soecific company?

   What happened is that I had a # 7 Bailey corrugated and it was a little rough. I answered his ad in FWW, he advertised in about '98 or earlier, I will find the issue. He even has a full color brouchure. I sent the plane to him in Jan of 2000. I had talked to him about April of 2000 and he was asking if I wanted rosewood handles and a Hock blade and other things and he was being business-like He was a nice guy and talked to me about winter because I live in Alaska and that Jan. in Chicage they had a real big snowstorm. He was personable. By that summer he kept stalling, he said in the Spring he has cut his hand with a sharp blade and stuff. So considering that this big storm and a bad cut from a sharp plane blade perhaps set him back a little, I can live with that.

   Then he stopped returning my calls and it has been my hobby ever since to try to reach someone that had dealt with Mr, Evans. Now to put him on trial is cheap, but the thing that bugged me was he never told me "look I'm busted and I can't make payroll" or something. I just wish he would have leveled with me.

   Come on, it's not that much money. I hope I am the only one who lost out and I would really accept an apology and even take a wash out on the $. I mean, he could have just gone broke and that is too bad. I can afford it. It seems funny that no one else on this system had heard of that outfit.

   And that is the rest of the story.

5. 
   jgaiennie | Jan 24, 2003 03:31am | #22

   There's something to "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".  Be squeaky.  You may actually get your plane.  I know I'd hate to loose my #7 that way.

   jdg

6. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 24, 2003 03:37am | #23

   I remember seeing the ads and thinking that he was offering a valuable service. I did wonder if it would be possible to actually make any money at the price he was asking. I also wondered if it was just a scheme for stealing planes, either to keep or to sell, but it seemed awfully complicated for that.

7. 
   EdHarrison | Jan 24, 2003 05:08am | #25

   Yeah but six months to restore a plane?

   I mean I understand electrolysis baths, baking out moisture, re-jappaning, sole flattening on a metal-working jig, carving and turning totes and knobs, finishing them,...but then, like, what are we doing next week? How could it take six months? Or even a month? I bet Mike in Katy knows how long it takes to restore a plane.

   I guess I've been ripped off a few times and just have a low tolerance for small businesses that don't come through with what they promise. I have the soul of Woodrow F. Call in "Lonesome Dove" when it comes to that,...I say saddle up the black Mare 'Hell-Bitch' (Woodrow's horse) and track 'em down. When we get there, it's "You boys get yer ropes,.." (What a great movie!) Sorry for this digression.

   Hope you get your plane back. If not, get one of those Clifton No. 7 jointers - it's a righteous tool. Respectfully, Ed

8. 
   lucaire2000 | Jan 25, 2003 02:42am | #26

   Has any one ever put a Clifton up aganist a Lie neilson? any way I found a #7 at a sale back East in Binghamton for $65 and its in good shape, so I'm not lost. I will keep trying the last callI made the # was disconnected.

2. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 20, 2003 11:10pm | #16

   Ed -

   If the handle has a recess in the bottom where the threaded rod goes, them you might try this.  Put a light coat of oil on the threaded rod and on the base around where the rod screws into the receiver.  Then, put epoxy putty around on the inside of the recessed hole in the handle.  Secure the handle down and let it set till the epoxy sets up.  The oil (or grease) is to keep the epoxy from adhering to the steel or cast iron.  After the epoxy sets up, then redrill the thru hole in the handle to 1/4".

   Or, try using a small lock washer under the brass nut.  Might need to put a small flat washer in first.  I get number 8(?) washers and drill the center hole out to 1/4".  The flat washers come with a 7/16" diameter, so they fit right in.  Just need to enlarge the center hole.  Might also need to deepen the hole in the handle some.

   Having done over 100 restorations, I have seen some real 'doozies'.  It's amazing how well some of them clean up.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

3. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 20, 2003 11:41pm | #17

   Try some blue Loc-tite on the threads.

1. 
   EdHarrison | Jan 21, 2003 03:36am | #18

   Uncle Dunc, Mike in Katy, Thanks, going to try some combo of all three suggestions. Can anyone help the guy who had his jointer bench plane ripped off mentioned in this thread? Ed

7. 
   dirtstirrer | Jan 24, 2003 04:58am | #24

   Dale,

       I like to restore and use old planes myself with an eye on their collecter value.   I've found that the best way I can remove rust and leave jappaning is to use Naval Jelly and fine steel wool.  Works great.  The jappaning is nearly impervious to the stuff but the rust really comes off well.  It even leaves your planes looking old, just not abused anymore.  Just follow the label on the bottle and I think you'll like the results.  Oh, its also avalible at most good hardware stores.

       I've also tried soaking in muratic acid with OK results.  The acid is pretty abnoxious stuff though and it removes everything including jappaning.  It only takes about half an hour to take something to bare metal with the acid, but it will etch the surface if you leave it to long.  Be careful if you decide to try this!

       Please don't use a wire wheel on a collecter plane!  It's marks are fairly obvious and it ruins the patina. 

                  Steve