Replies

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 08, 2003 01:32am | #1

   Glue technology may have advanced enough in the last 45 years that 1/2" finger joints are plenty deep. If you want the look of the original deep joints, there are two other alternatives, trading off money against hassle. The expensive one is to have a cutter custom ground. My guess is the price would be pretty breathtaking. The less expensive but more annoying alternative would be to have a one finger cutter ground and use the router height adjustment to make the multiple fingers.

1. 
   BG | Jan 08, 2003 01:55am | #2

   Uncle,

   Could Jerry cut those finger joints with a TS and jig?  He kinda described a taper which could be accomplished with a tilt to the blade...and then just chop out with a sharp chisel?  Maybe I am misinterrupting, I used to go to nursery school in a 'woody'....I remember thinking those fingers could be cut on a TS....lol.

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 08, 2003 06:06am | #4

   What I'm visualizing is finger joints on the ends of relatively long pieces, so you'd have to have really high ceilings, or do it outside. I was thinking of a tablesaw too, only I was thinking of a special ground blade, like a skinny, tapered dado blade. If I understand what you're suggesting, you'd have to tilt the work in one direction and step it across the blade however many times, then tilt it the other direction and do it again. Trying the keep the tilt angle the same on both sides with that kind of setup, with long sticks sticking up in the air, doesn't appeal to me. And with fingers an inch and a half long, the angles would have to match pretty dang close to avoid gaps.

2. 
   fdampier5 | Jan 08, 2003 04:48am | #3

   I hate to hi-jack a thread so I'll offer you a solution first ....then Hi- jack it'

          Could you do without the finger joints?  I mean the reason for finger joints was to use pieces that weren't long enough.. maybe you can cut your pieces from big solid planks?  I have several planks that are as much as 22 inches wide. I know that you can get em as wide as 48 inches whatever thickness you need..

     If originality is what you seek, forget it.... But if you need to replace some decayed/rotted wood it might be a lot cheaper and easier.....

     Now the Hi-jack......

     Anybody have a set of plans for a 1930 ford Model A woody?  

    I got the car but not enough wood to make patterns from...

3. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 08, 2003 06:50am | #5

   Jerry

           If you really want the look then cut them by hand, just as you would a dovetail.  Cut one side of the joint and then use it to scribe the other piece to it.  Handsaw slightly short of the line and finish by paring it with a chisel.  I'd be willing to bet that with the length of the pieces involved that I could do it quicker  by hand than by machine, and certainly a lot cheaper.  This joint would be even easier than a dovetail as it could be sawn entirely and then just pared slightly with no chopping involved. Then use an epoxy or polyurethane glue just in case you have some hairline gaps to fill.

                                                                     Mark

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 08, 2003 07:44am | #6

   >> If you really want the look then cut them by hand ...

   I'm having a hard time imaging that anybody was cutting finger joints for automobiles by hand in 1957. Perfectly spaced tapered finger joints are an identifying mark of machine woodworking, like perfectly spaced dovetails.

1. 
   ian | Jan 08, 2003 02:55pm | #7

   My approach would be to make a plywood template and cut the joints using a template guide and a small diameter straight router bit.  The template might need a method to index across the piece, cutting the fingers individually. 

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 08, 2003 08:10pm | #8

   That sounds easier than some of the other ideas that have come up, including some of mine. :) There are also good arguments for rounded ends on the fingers and slots. I have reason to believe that a 1/8" router bit is a pretty delicate item, but I guess you could break a bunch of them and still be money ahead, compared to buying custom ground cutters.

1. 
   Ron | Jan 08, 2003 11:16pm | #9

   try a post Auto body on line.com , andhttp://www.prodiscussions.com/index.html

2. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 09, 2003 06:11am | #11

   Dunc,

         You could match any look you wanted and still cut them by hand.  All you would have to do is make a template of the original and lay out from it.  The reason I suggested that he cut them by hand is that all of the previous posts had been suggestions for machines, none of which sounded very practical to me with the exception of custom-made shaper cutters.  These would be very expensive and also require  a pretty beefy shaper with a tenoning table to do it safely.  Therefor I suggested that he just cut them by hand.  He only wants  to do one car(I think) so it wouldn't be that big a deal.  If he wants to go into the restoration businessthen that is another matter, however I don't think that's what he has in mind.  Bottom line is that sometimes the lowtech solution is the best.  He will have to decide that for himself.  One other thing, I used the words " if you really want the look" because others had suggested that he use pieces big enough to do the job without fingerjointing, which by the way I think is a good idea. However if he wants absolute authenticity(which I can understand) then that isn't an option.  I wasn't suggesting that the originals were cut by hand but that he could mimic that look by cutting them by hand. 

                                                        Mark

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 09, 2003 06:40am | #13

   You're right, I did misunderstand you. :) Hand cutting the joints never occurred to me, or rather, I considered it very briefly and rejected it, mostly because I don't have any reason to believe I could achieve perfect, mechanical uniformity cutting them by hand. Not in any reasonable amount of time, anyway.

   Thanks for the clarification.

   Edited 1/8/2003 10:45:52 PM ET by Uncle Dunc

1. 
   ian | Jan 09, 2003 03:04pm | #14

   Earlier I suggested a ply template, template guide and straight router bit (my CMT catalogue lists a 1/8 in dia bit that has a 1/2 in cutting length that might be suitable).  The rounded inners could be squared off with a chisel if desired. 

   However, another method would be to use a band saw.  With the right blade, fence angle, spacer/indexing arrangement and stop all the fingers should be straight to the required depth and angle.  Squaring off the root of the fingers could also be done on the band saw. 

   However, I suspect that the real objective is restoring the woody, not milling the finger joints so pre-milled timber is probably the best option.

2. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 10, 2003 03:47am | #19

   Uncle Dunc,

           Thanks for the reply.  I think you might surprise yourself with how fast they can be cut but then, you aren't the one with the woody.  You know in some ways I almost envy Jerry.  That sounds like a really cool project but alas I only have so much time and I'd rather spend it doing highboys, secretaries and the like.  Oh well maybe someday I'll be independently wealthy.  LOL

                                         Mark

                                                                        

3. 
   jerry | Jan 10, 2003 08:50pm | #20

   Thanks guys ( I assume you are all guys) for all your helpful comments about the woody.  If you want to see the challenging project, log on to:

   http://www.national-security.net/~ewheeler/woody/

4. 
   Elcoholic | Jan 11, 2003 12:08am | #21

   Great find.  It looks like most of the car is there, especially the trim and the uniquely Woody parts like the sliding windows.  What about the back window fittings?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

5. 
   jerry | Jan 11, 2003 12:46am | #22

   The missing stuff, like the right rear door, is lying loose in the cargo area.  We were told the car was actually running two years ago, but it has been sitting outdoors covered with blackberry vines since then.  Don't know where you are, but the car is at my son's place now in Newberg, Oregon.

6. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 11, 2003 12:56am | #23

   Jerry,

         Man that is a cool car.  I think I'm jealous but then I wouldn't have the time to bring it back if I did own it.  Post some pics as you progress on it.

                                                          Mark

7. 
   gtieszen | Jan 13, 2003 07:02am | #24

   I watched the reproduction of a unique, one-of-a-kind Auburn automobile by the Auburn Cord Parts Company.  This project also had a number of finger joints just like you describe in the framework.  Now these were on the internal bulkhead and bracing structure so they were not visible, and this might make a difference in wheather you want to use my suggestion, but-- what ACP did was obtain some 3/16 X 4 or 5in metalworking carbide tipped "saw" blades from a local machine shop surplus supply store.  These were then mounted on a shaper spindle with appropriate spacers.  This seemed to work quite well.  The joints weren't tapered, but the length of the fingers was about your required 1-1/4 in.

   Edited 1/12/2003 11:06:28 PM ET by gtieszen

8. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 13, 2003 05:02pm | #25

   Gtieszen,

              I think you are a little confused. It is not my car. Belongs to another poster. As to your idea I think it would work just fine although it wouldn't be a true fingerjoint which has the tapered fingers.  What you are talking about is a "Box" joint.  The car owner will have to decide how much authenticity is necessary and decide accordingly.  BTW I think your idea would be a good way to go for a bunch of drawers as long as they didn't exceed the spindle ht. of the shaper.  Hmmmm.

                                                         Mark

9. 
   gtieszen | Jan 13, 2003 09:46pm | #26

   Yes, after I sent the message I realized that I had goofed -- Sorry!  I'm new to this forum and just haven't figured out the right way to navigate/respond.  Again, my apologies.

10. 
    kennedy136 | Jan 14, 2003 12:05am | #27

    Gties,

            No problem and I do like your idea,  just don't know if it would be authentic enough for his restoration.

                                                     Mark

2. 
   jerry | Jan 09, 2003 10:07pm | #17

   Thanks for your and others comments.  Yes, we only have one woody and we have no experience in this sort of thing.  I have just been a hobbyist woodworker for about 14 years.  I have had more comments about my query than I ever expected.  First time I have used this chat room. 

1. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 10, 2003 03:41am | #18

   Jerry,

           You are quite welcome.  One of the other posts suggested using the bandsaw(assuming you have one) to cut them.  This would be an easy way if your pieces are not too long and awkward, and then you could just finish the joints by paring with a sharp chisel to your layout marks.  I did not mention in my first post that you should use a sharp knife or an awl to make your layout marks.  This is much more accurate than a pencil. After you would cut one side of the joint then you use that side of the joint to mark the other one which compensates for any discrepancies in the first one. (discrepancies from the pattern). I am not sure how much experience you have woodworking but if you have the skills to restore this car then you can easily learn the skills to cut the joint by hand.  You will also find that after you do a few that you will develop some speed to the process.  What we are talking about here is no where near as difficult as cutting a dovetail and that said, I don't consider cutting dovetails to be that difficult.  It would certainly be your cheapest route unless you can find a source for factory parts.  At any rate it sounds like a very interesting project and I wish you the best.  Feel free to come back and ask for advice if you feel you need it and by all means let us know how it  comes out.  Some pictures of the wood frame work when you get it torn down would be nice.  Good luck

4. 
   Elcoholic | Jan 09, 2003 12:36am | #10

   I don't mean to get on a rant here but most of these replys are bad advice if you want to end up with some degree of originality and/or stay in one piece yourself.  Even if you don't care, you may sell the car someday and a knowledgable buyer will have a major bargaining advantage.  I have a good friend that has done several woodies that win big shows.  You should see Jay's Buick Roadmaster it has taken best of show in woody and wagon classes.

   He had a cutter made and tried it on a Powermatic shaper.  That is a big hunk of very scary rotating metal.  I've seen it action but wouldn't go near it personally.  Where a router might get a finger or a hand, this thing would take your arm off at the elbow. Given the size of workpieces and the speed of the shaper it was tough to control and when a piece blew-up it was crap-your-drawers time.  This kind of machining in maple end grain is a nightmare.  He bought a used metal working mill just to do these finger joints.  Between the slower tool speed and the geared feed control it's a much better proposition.  Send an email to Jay his address is [email protected].

   Have you considered buying the finger jointed parts?  I know of  2 'known' woody parts mfrs, one in Signal Hill, CA and I think there's one in Phoenix.  I'm pretty sure they'd sell individual pieces.  Jay can hook you up that way.

   John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

   
   

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   Edited 1/8/2003 7:06:47 PM ET by ELCOHOLIC

1. 
   fdampier5 | Jan 09, 2003 06:27am | #12

   Maybe Jay Leno needs correct fingerjointed wood connections, lord knows that he can afford it. But a 57 plymouth?  pretty hard to command top dollar for one of those..

        Maybe not the place for a dovetail joint but the need for exact depth of finger joints escapes me..

     On the other hand if it's I don't give a damn about getting the investment back kinda deal.   Hey, good luck !

2. 
   jerry | Jan 09, 2003 10:02pm | #16

   Thanks for the information.  We are a ways off from working on the old woody because my son is only building the garage to put it in right now, but will contact Jay shortly.

5. 
   swines | Jan 09, 2003 06:19pm | #15

   You've gotten a lot of advice on how to cut the finger joints, and several seem to be really workable.  In all probability, the originals were cut on a shaper with a custom cutter head as described in one of the posts.   What you need to do is duplicate the look of the originals, the method used is your choice.

   I am going to advocate replicating the original look as closely as possible.  Woodies of all types and years have become one of the "hot cars" in the collectible car market.  Recently, a 1953 woodie sold for $54,000 at one of the car auctions.   While your '57 may not bring that kind of money, it certainly is worth restoring to a high standard as there are Mopar collectors who would jump on it in a heartbeat.

   If you want it to be a "custom rod" based on a woody, then you're free to do whatever you want.  However, you must realize that custom rods are one-of-a-kind creations that reflect the tastes of the owner, which often does not translate into a saleable item unless executed to a very high standard by a well know builder ("Cadzilla" for example).

   What is important is to choose what you want to do with the automobile.  If you want it to be as valuable as possible, then what you need to do is adhere as closely as possible to the original construction, colors, and materials.   The restoration show car scene is fun, and filled with interesting people.  Likewise the hot rod car scene.  

   You need to view this not just as a project, but as a restoration of a "classic" automobile that has intrinsic value because it is from the high-point of Detroit's most outrageous styling period.  As a collector and restorer of wooden boats, I can tell you that whatever you invest in bringing the car back to "factory" standards will be returned in a higher resale value.  Oh, yeah...have fun with it, that's the point!

6. 
   Wateren | Jan 17, 2003 04:38am | #28

   Jerry, there is a decent book, "Automotive Woodworking" by Roland Johnson (MBI Publishing Co., published 2001. It is slim, but talks about fingerjointing frame parts (especially, he says, for wheel wells).

   In the back he has Sources of Supply and reference books/ interesting reading (about a dozen books). The back cover refers to http://www.motorbooks.com Maybe this can keep you going.

   Good Luck!

   Chris

1. 
   jerry | Jan 17, 2003 08:49pm | #30

   Thanks for the reference.  I already have this book and it has a small part on finger joints including a picture of a woodworker who devised his own jig to make them.  No details on how the jig is constructed.  Jerry

7. 
   user-335961 | Jan 17, 2003 05:10am | #29

   Jerry, try http://www.hemmings.com . They have all kinds of forums there dealing with antique and classic cars. Ask around there, I'm sure they can better help- Pnhd

   
   

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   Edited 1/16/2003 9:39:19 PM ET by solar