Ridgid saw vs. General vs used Delta —
losttexan
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi I’m starting up a shop and looking at table saws. I’ve found a few Deltas in the local classifieds, and I’m also thinking about the General 50-185M1 (bc I liked the description in last year’s tools issue) and Ridgid’s new TS3650. The latter is a bit of conundrum for me — I really like the mobile base, since this is going to be a shop on wheels for a while, but I’m wary of a 1 1/2 hp motor and the fact it is at Home Depot, which I am rapidly learning to hate. Hoping to spend $500-700, which is why I’m starting off with this selection. If there is anything to look out/look for in used Deltas/Jets/other equipment, please let me know!
Replies
Don't worry about the motor HP. Many woodworkers (like me) have been using saws with "only" 1.5 HP for decades without feeling like they were missing anything.
Worry a little about buying from HD. I have the Ridgid jointer, which is a great machine, but the buying experience left me wondering "why am I spending my money here."
Where are you located? It makes a difference for the brands / vendors that will be available nearby. "Losttexan" could mean either that you're lost in Texas, or maybe you're a Texan lost somewhere else. : )
Regards
thanks for the reassurance on hp. I live in L.A. but am originally from Texas. Just bought a house, so I've finally got the room to buy some real equipment. But HDepot -- yuck. Finding help at that store is a nightmare.
Hello lost,
I'm sitting on my back porch in South Lake, TX (thats north of Fort Worth) watching the Buffalo on Ross Perot JR's spread mull about in the drizzly mist we have this beautiful morning. The sweet scent of ripe hay and fresh Texas rain are mixing with my mug of hot Columbian coffee steaming in the cool morning dew. Remind you of home?
Any way, while you probably will not find good help at HD for woodworking, you will find the most liberal return policy ever. Try returning a $700 saw at Wood Craft after you used it for a project or two. Not to mention that in my experience the helpfull folk at Wood Craft and Rocklers are usually more opinionated than knowlagable. I like to say that those who cant do, teach; and those who cant teach, work at Wood Craft. You should also look for a used Unisaw or other cabinet saw. However if you are willing to spend at the top of your range the Delta contractors saw is solid. I've not heard any complaints about it, unless they were compairing it to their new cabinet saw.
Mike sitting on my porch in Texas.......please excuse my spelling.
"I like to say that those who cant do, teach;"
Do you have any basis for saying this, or is it just a cheap shot?
Kent (teacher, woodworker)
Kent,
It is not ment as an attack on anyone. I worked in sales most of my adult life, up untill I started my own business. Now as the owner of a business I still have to sell. I also enjoy teaching. There are some exceptions to these rules, look at the many great masters who have schools. But in general I believe it to be very true. And teaching is not a lower position that "doing". For example My wife has her PHD in Physical therapy and is one of the best P.T.s in the country. Her bed side maner, education, intuition, and caring disposition make her so. However she worships her the guy who started the school she attended. He is truly brilliant. Many of his ideas from 10 years ago are only being realized today in the field. He also has a photographic memory, and an amazing ability to teach. However he is a horrible P.T. His bed side maner is lacking and he dosen't have the patients to help the patients realize their best recovery. SO, everone is better off that he teaches.
I also have 2 good friends who were shop teachers. Both have a talent for helping others learn the nuances of woodworking. They have taught me many things that I probably never would have learned in books, magizines, or this forum. Neither are profesional woodworkers. In fact I know that neither has ever made a piece of "fine furniture". I respect them tremendously for their skills as teachers, but when it comes to purchaseing a tool or deciding the best way to "get the job done" I go to others who are profesionals or acomplished in the trade.
Now for the truly obvious. Home Depot and Wood Craft pay their employees $8 to $16 an hour. A competent wood worker can earn triple that amount. Why sell at a retail store? I suspect that they love woodworking and even though they are unable to make a living at it they can be very involved in it on the retail side.
And lastly, Kent I'm sure you've heard that saying before. I believe it has been around since the first college professors began torturing undergrads. So aparently that is not only my observation but also that of many generations before me. My point is that at BEST you should take their advise with a grain of salt. And I have heard many truly absurd things proclaimed by the "helpfull experts" at Rocklers, Wood Craft, as well as Home Depot. I will continue to shop at those places anyway.
Again no offense intended I have the greatest respect for teachers, and good sales people.
Mike please excuse my spelling.
From my life experience I would say "those who can't are bankers".
Rigid's new saw seems much better than the old version. I have a friend who's had the General saw for about a month now. He hasn't done much work with it yet, but I took a look at it, and it's nice! Excellent fence, great fit and finish, wings match up perfectly with the table. I would get it over the Rigid, hands down, given the budget. I like the fence better, and I like solid cast iron wings, rather than the ones with the holes in it.
You can build a quick mobile base, or buy one separately.
The General's fence is made in Canada, the saw itself in Asia (Taiwan, I believe). It looks remarkably like the Grizzly G0444Z, but the General is left-tilt. The fence on the Grizzly is a new Shop Fox design, which I haven't seen up-close and personal yet.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks folks. Been reading old posts on similar topics and noticed forestgirl praise grizzly couple of times. Wonder what you like about them. Also, am curious for thots on left vs. right tilt blades -- everything I'ver read, limited tho it is, suggests left tilt is better, so why would anyone make right tilt? Finally, am still curious whether newer saws typically have many features that older ones don't.
The only thing truly new and revolutionary in tablesaws in recent years is the Sawstop automatic blade brake. It's been demoed at shows, and there's a waiting list of customers, but AFAIK it's not on the market yet. Entry-level rip fences are also better than they used to be, but otherwise, not a whole lot is new.
Left / right tilt will be debated until the end of time. I have a slight preference for left, but not enough to be a deal breaker. I'm actually using a right-tilt, because I got a good deal on a used saw.
Kent,
The Unisaw, PM66, General 350, contractor saws, Far East clones, etc. are indeed aging designs. Patents long expired, and tooling costs way past amortized. Manufacturing quality of the Far East plants is improving, so the choice gets tougher.
I got a close look at the SawStop cabinet saw @ IWF 2004 in Atlanta. Betas have been in Oregon area shops since early this year. I believe that a single short production run, maybe 40 saws or so, has gone out to reviewers and early preorders. One went to Kelly Mehler for FWW testing; hopefully the review will be out soon. I hear that Gary Rogowski got one for shop (not review) use. Delta ordered one along with 10 cartridges under a non-company name. I preordered one shortly after the list was started, and understand that mine is being made as I write this and might be in my shop sometime in December. It's taking a while but they seem to be doing a good job. Last I heard the list was about 750 names long.
The blade brake is, of course, the most revolutionary aspect, but the saw brings fresh thought and modern technology to other parts of the saw as well. Other safety features include true riving knife, a blade guard that will actually get used, magnetic starter, and a hip-friendly shutoff. The fence is similar to a Bies but even more heavy duty, fully adjustable, scaled left of the blade as well as right, and has replaceable faces. Most alignment aspects are adjustable with bolts or cams; less shimming, tapping, and cussing. Built in dust collection ducting. Two cabinet doors for good service access. Tool-free belt replacement. It's a massive saw; 635 pounds wet (with the 36" fence I preordered).
The contractor saw version has only made it to engineering prototype stage. Hopefully production versions will come out sometime in 2005.
I'll post more when mine arrives.
Regards, Dave
Texan, what I like most about Grizzly is their track record of providing quality mid-level tools for an excellent price. It's not true of all of their tools, but some really stand out: their 8" jointer, their 1023S cabinet saw, and several of their band saws. Also, their customer service is excellent.
I pointed out the new Grizzly contractor's saw just so you'd be aware of it. I'm not sure that I'd choose it over the General though. I know I like the General fence, and I've not seen the Shop Fox AlumiClassic (or whatever they call it) yet. There's a bit of a price difference between the two saws, but not big enough to overcome any reservations about fence design or construction.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 11/2/2004 12:01 pm ET by forestgirl
When you've tried to rip some 8/4 hard maple, or other hardwood, for that matter, you will be concerned about the 1 1/2 hp motor, which, without an extremely slow feed rate, will bog down the motor. I recommend spending your money on a used cabinet saw for the same money, assuming you have the power in your shop to run it. You'll find yourself not wanting to upgrade so quickly. There are lots of unisaws and 66's out there for under $1000.00. I found an older unisaw that I kept for 9 years, until I bought my new powermatic 66 last year. I sold it to a friend with a sliding table for $1000.00 even. It performed way better than my contractor's saw( a delta 1 1/2 hp, oddly enough)! Hope this helps.
Thanks JC -- Actually someone is offering a 30-year old Delta cabinet saw for $700 -- but it has a phase III motor (don't really know what that means except that has to be converted for home use) and of course it really big. My shop is a one-car garage I'm fixing up and will need mobile bases. So was kind of X-ing it off my list. Do cabinet saws do more than 1. have more hp and 2. built more solid?
Of all brands you list, only one I would consider buying-Delta. Among other saws I use on a daily basis, I use a Delta 10" saw built in the 1950's, and still running like a champ. In fact, the older and heavier, the better.The General brand is okay but I prefer Delta.
Cabinet saws are a grade above contractor saws from trunnions to fence to smoothness of operation. hp depends on reading the motorplate.
Cabinet saws, with the motor mounted inside the base, actually take up a bit less room than contractor's saws, which have the motor at the back of the saw.
Three phase power is an issue, however. Making the saw usable on residential single phase, either by replacing the motor or adding an external converter, will cost several hundred $$$. I'd also add that three phase almost certainly means that the saw was in industrial, commercial or institutional use, and may have serious wear. I've seen some old commercial machines that were impeccably maintained, and some that were thrashed.
LT,
$700 is pretty high for a machine with a 3 phase motor unless it is in extremely fine condition with an upgraded rip fence and other accessories tossed in.
Don't get me wrong, 3 phase is a great thing---if you have it available. Most of us don't and the conversion or replacing the motor will be a significant expense when compared to the purchase price.
I bought a 1950 Unisaw for $225 about two years ago. The miter gage was missing and it had the original "Jet-Lock" rip fence but it was wired for 220 and could have been just cleaned up and used. I have been actually using it for about 6-8 months now and I have just under $1000 invested, including bearings, belts, regrinding the top, Accusquare rip fence, Incra 1000SE miter gage, Merlin splitter, paint, DC hook-up, extension table and misc. hardware.
If you have a little bit of mechanical apptitude or experience you really won't have any problem working on an old table saw; they're not rocket science! If you've even toyed with the idea of fixing up an old saw, I'd highly recommend it! There's something special about rejuvenating an old tool.
My 2cw.
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
losttexan:
A cabinet saw really doesn't take up any more space than a contractor's saw, footprint wise. You can still put one on a mobile base, and the amount of space it takes up really depends on the rip capacity of the saw, as with a contractor's saw. As far as three phase goes, this problem can be solved with a static phase converter for around $150.00, but before you would want to do that, keep looking. There are lots of unisaws, etc... for sale for a reasonable price. Most are 3 hp or larger, and cut through the thicker stock like butter. I make chairs, and have a 5 horsepower powermatic 66. I frequently rip 10/4 and 12/4 stock for table and cabriole legs, and do so like a hot knife through butter. My advice is to keep looking, you won't be disappointed once you get a nice, well cared for cabinet saw. Good luck!!
JC
Accept for a cabinet-saw with a 50" or larger fence system the cabinet-saw is smaller than a contractors-saw because of the motor hanging out the back on a contractors-saw. So if you find a cabinet-saw that runs on 220 volts with a around a 30" fence & put it on a mobile base it will roll right up to a wall & not have anything hanging out.Sucking.......Whoosh.......Yowl........Whoosh.........Thrump puttytat up the DC..
When you've tried to rip some 8/4 hard maple, or other hardwood, for that matter, you will be concerned about the 1 1/2 hp motor, which, without an extremely slow feed rate, will bog down the motor.
I just cut a whole bunch of 8/4 oak with no problems. yes I did slow the feed rate down a little. Am I or most here a production shop ...No. If it takes me say 15-20 seconds to ripp a piece of 8/4 oak as opposed to 10-15 seconds make much of a difference..No.
can I upgrade my TS motor for a couple of hundred bucks if I want to yes...
So i do agree with your train of thought about upgrading to a cab saw But a contractors will do just fine
I know this is gonna sound a bit hypocritical, I would by a new Griz cab for the same price of a Delta or jet contractors . But the only issue I have with that is getting parts.
Darkworksite4: I'm RonT and I have approved this message
RonT-
Don't misunderstand me. I never said it couldn't be done. I simply stated that for the money, which is the concern of the original post, a used more-powerful cabinet saw was a better purchase. If you're gonna buy a new contractor's saw, and replace it with a higher horsepower motor anyway, what's the point??? $$$!!! And on another note, ripping 8/4 oak and 8/4 maple, which is what I had stated in my post, are 2 horses of a different color. Oak doesn't want to grab or spring like grainy or figured maple will. Also, hard maple is quite a bit harder than oak. Personally, I have 2 saws in my shop, my powermatic 66, which I absolutely love, and a restored '53 Oliver 270, with a 5 hp, 3 phase, direct drive motor. I do all my joinery work on the powermatic, and I rip all my stock on the Oliver, which is equipped with a power feeder. When you start it up, it sounds like an airplane taking off. I was just trying to help the first guy to not make the mistake with the contractor's saw that I made. I sold mine eight month's after I bought it.
JC
"the only issue I have with that is getting parts." Are you thinking that getting Grizzly parts would be a problem? Shouldn't be. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ron,
The issue is not time but burning the wood. As you slow down the feed rate you heat up the blade and the wood. I work with cherry a lot and if you slow down for a second, one second !, to move your hands it will burn. Oak is actually a very easy wood to work with. I also work with a lot of exotics and keeping the feed rate up is crucial. Although I will say that Bubinga Burl has a plesantly sweet smell when it burns. If you have the patients to look for a good deal on a cabinet saw it is worth it.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I love my Ridgid 3612, which is very similar to the current Ridgid 3650, but the 3650 comes from Taiwan, and has weaker legs; the 3612 was made in USA. Both are far better than the previous Ridgid models. It is easily calibrated and keeps the alignment very well; the fence is amazingly good for an OEM fence, I routinely get cuts accurate to 1/64 inch or finer.
Full disclosure - I will be upgrading from my Ridgid to a combination machine with an 8 foot sliding table in the near future - big step, no reflection on the Ridgid. I am not doing it to get more horsepower.
If you can find a used 3612, I would choose it over a new 3650, but either is good. But I also hear the Grizzly is good (I have some of their tools but not the saw).
Left tilt does most of the cutting on the right, waste on the left. There is less chance of kickback of the scrap which falls away from the tilted blade. But the arbor is on the left, so you have to recalibrate the fence/ruler on the right whenever the thickness of the blade changes. Also on some cabinet saws, the motor position interferes with some accessories (like 8 foot sliding tables), so right tilt has more options.
________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
I've got the Gen 185, paid just over 600 new (before prices went up) absolutely love it. A few friends have seen and tried it, and wished they'd gotten one. At 2HP with the fit and finish of a top of the line you can't go wrong. Haven't tried the other saws, see what others say.
Haven't asked a followup question for a couple of days, but I'm reading avidly.
losttexan hello,
If I were you, I was lost in all the answers you received. I assume all tried to help you but you did not give us the basic information we need to give an educated answer.
First, what type of work you would like to do in your shop? It might be that a small accurate machine will be fine or you need a strong 3 hp saw? How often are you going to use your shop?
Second, with my experience, the type of machine is not the most important thing, its your ability to maximize all your tools and wisdom. Obviously its nice to have good machinery but I would recommend you to visit other similar shop in your area. See and speak to other people doing similar projects. Start at a local woodworking club.
Good luck, Yona
Well Yona, I have grand ambitions of making my own furniture for fun rather than profit, and of fixing up the house a bit. So I hope to use it a lot and to improve my skills as I go. I plan to use hardwoods, and I want to be able to use thick hardwoods, and after all this discussion, I'm thinking about a used Jet cabinet saw in my area, which is about the price of the new contractor saws. Visiting shops is a good idea, too.
Your ambitions sounds like my mine some years ago. Please allow me to tell you shortly my experience since:
After acquiring the machines I was eager to start and do a lot of things. After spending time, money and good wood I realized I am not improving myself. I was jealous of other people work, I was like first grade while others were professionals. My biggest improvements came with relatively small effort. First, I took two courses: joinery and finishing, Second I was lucky to work with a professional cabinetmaker for about few weekends. This changed my abilities dramatically. It took me just a few mounts to get skills I would never be able to acquire by myself. Since as a hobby I do chairs, tables, veneer, spry finish and more.
And my last recommendation is to start with building your own workbench, it is a beautiful project to start with. This was my real first project because I needed it and it will serve you for years. It has all the steps you find in any object from drawings and selecting wood to finishing. I still smile thinking about it - it was like a victory. I made the workbench described in Tage Frid Book 3: Furnituremaking.
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