I would like to purchase the Unisaw but cant decide betwee the two. I like the safety and direction of the LT. I am concerned that the safety would be offset by the inconvenience of the scale being off when using a stacked dado set. In addition, is there a quality issue between the left and right?. It seems that all the accessories for the LT have not been fully thought out. For example, the slots in the outfeed tables do not line with miter slots, as they were designed for the Rt. The thickness scale is off onthe tenoning jig if it switched for use with LT.
Replies
Rocky every one of your concerns is valid and that is why I have a right tilt saw. I have come to the conclusion that sales/marketing came up with the left tilt on a unisaw. They haven't been around all that long (10-15 years) compared to the right tilt(since the 1930's) and the design/engineering dept's haven't tackled the redesign of the accessories for whatever reason. I know your concerns are valid but the reality is any issue you are concerned about is easily overcome and becomes second nature in no time. These saws come with rip fences that are usable on both sides of the blade, so bevel cuts like raised panels are not a concern. That is just one example of many that make people cringe at buying a R/T saw. Besides that why put yourself in a position where you have to alter or modify accessories or worse yet not be able to even use the accessory? Hope this helped Joe
JOEGROUT wrote: ... They haven't been around all that long (10-15 years) compared to the right tilt(since the 1930's) ...
Perhaps you were talking only about the Unisaw, not tablesaws in general, but I believe Craftsman saws have been left tilt since the beginning of that line, but I don't know for sure when that was.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
I bought my first table saw, a Craftsman on an open stand (contractor's saw) and don't even recall that there was a choice - it was a left tilt.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Yes, you are correct, I was speaking to the original topic which is about Unisaws. I am aware that craftsman and many others saws of that caliper are left tilt only and I really have nothing to say about them except that once you use a r/t saw I doubt that you would go back. My first saw was a left tilt Mongomery Wards and I wore it out in around two years time. I went looking for a saw that could stand up to my expectations. I ran Unisaws in high school and decided that was the saw I needed. I basically went back to a band saw and hand tools to make enough money to buy the saw. It took a while, but every time I use that saw I am thankful that I had the resources and stamina to earn that saw. Joe
Rocky,
I agree with your concerns, but think the added safety of left tilt far out-weighs them. Aren't we talking about safety vs. convenience?
Furthermore, I've never really trusted the measuring scales an any machine, and long ago , while still using right tilt, developed the habit of measuring and marking my stock, then setting up to jig or fence accordingly.
Jeff
I have worked both with a right tilt & a left tilt saw. I much prefer the left tilt. Because if your comfortable with the fence on the right side of the blade most of the time. Are you going to be just as comfortable with it when you have it on the left side of the blade to cut with the blade tilted over? I would siggest trying this fence positioning drill as a dry run with the saw shut off & see where you need to put your hands & body see if it feels natural the big question is DO YOU FEEL SAFE??????
Once you have set up the saw with all the jigs & accessories your pretty much set. If your worried about where the blade path is or dado path is you can put a piece of masking tape on the table out in front of the blade & put location marks on it. What ever you do don't make this complicated. It's really quite simple.
Like I said I like my fence on the right side of the blade all the time. This just eliminates 1 more thing which which could cause an accident which is unfamiliarity with hand position & body position. Remember we don't usually make that many cuts with the blade tilted over.
Do most people rely on the fence scale measure ments for cutting or do they use a simple carpenter's measure? I would hate to spend good money a great fence only to have it be accurate at 90 degrees and with a standard kerf blade.
Can I safely cut large panels (ie, 30 inches) to the right of the blade with a bevel on both sides, or will this trap the cut between the blade and fence putting me in danger of kickback?
Does any have the LT unisaw? Are there any quality Issues with it? Does it have a cheaper feel than the RT unisaw?
I don't believe there are any quality issues with the LT saw. Most of the fences I have worked with can be checked & zeroed so the left tilt really isn't a problem. I just use my 6" rule to set the fence so it reads the same as the rule & it's ready to go it takes less than 30 seconds. No I wouldn't cut with the blade tilted toward the fence because it does trap the material between the blade & the fence, a kick back looking to happen. It's all a learning process no matter which saw you get.
IF you use a stacked dado, can the fence be zeroed with a bessy?
I modified the scale on my Biesemeyer so I can zero to any width dado. I made a new plate from 1/16" brass with 1" slots so it can be set where ever I want.
Rick
This is what the home shop madel installation instructions say.
(D). If it is necessary to adjust the cursor (D), make a test
cut with the fence locked in position. Measure the width of
the finished cut and adjust the cursor (D) by loosening the
two screws (E), adjusting the cursor (D) until the witness
line (C) is aligned with the same marking on the scale as
the finished cut. Then tighten the two screws (E).
You can click here & read for both
or
How wide is the Bessy cursor? Is there room so that a secondary line can be placed at the zero mark whan a stacked dado is place?
As long as we're giving pet names to our tools, please remember that there is a company, Bessey (pronounced Bessy), quite distinct from the fence, Beisemeyer (pronounced BEES-mire). Bessey, the company, makes some high-end clamps, among other things.
Offered only in the interest of avoiding confusion.
I am aware of the Bessey clamps as I own over 20
Jeff...get a rule you know is accurate and use that to check your scales on the machine. It seems a shame to not use one of the benefits of the new after market fences. After all that was one of it's strong points. Most of the scales I've seen are pretty good and if it's bad just get one that is good. I've replaced my scale on the Biesemeyer, not because it was inaccurate but I prefer to have metric and inches. Starret makes the sticky back ones. There's always digital readouts.
Rick
Rick -
You're pretty savvy with the Biesmeyer fence it would appear so here's a quiestion -
I recently installd the 14ga sheet metal facing to my Bies in order to use the Grip Tite mag feather board doo-hickies. Got wondering how much, if any difference this might have made to the straightness of the fence. Using a dial indicator on a for-the-purpose bar fit in the miter slot, I find about .010 belly in the fence. Zeroing the dial indicator at the front of the table edge, I get about .010 greater distance from the slot at about the arbor position and the same at the back edge of the table.
Now - when I bought my first ever really good saw blade - a Forrest WWII - the guy giving the demo at the WW show where I bought it claimed that a TS fence should be set with a slight splay to the back end. I believe it was something on the order of .010 but will have to go back and re-read the info. Several comments I've read here in the forum indicate that the consensus seems to be that the fence should be perzactly aligned with the blade. The Forrest guy's rationale was that the few thou opening at the back serves to prevent burning due to contact with the back rising teeth.
I'd like to hear your comments on setting the saw fence and your opinion on just how "straight" a saw fence should be.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I see this advice from time to time, Dennis. Toe the fence out and it reduces the chance of burning the timber being cut, and lessens the chance of intimate contact with the upcutting rear teeth on the fence side; the corollary to that is, what's happening on offcut side? Obviously the opposite, i.e., the offcut is being forced tighter against the upcutting teeth on the waste side. This almost certainly doesn't matter if the waste is just a sliver of timber, but what is happenning if you are ripping a series of 38 mm (1-1/2") wide pieces from a plank 250 mm (10") wide?
My experience is that deliberately setting a fence to toe-in, or toe-out, leads to more problems than it solves, and that setting a fence as near paralell to the blade as possible causes the least problems. Additionally, if you are in the habit of running grooves using a dado blade in a saw, ponder the effects of setting the fence to guide the timber at an angle that is divergent to that of the blade. Isn't that deliberately encouraging the dado blade to cut a wider slot than is intended, and doesn't that mean that the upcutting rear teeth on one side or the other of the dado blade are biting into fresh material rather than just following through in empty space, and could that encourage the likelihood of kickback?
There are more things to consider, such as which plane should the piece of wood follow-- the one set by the fence, or the one the plate of the blade wants the timber to follow, but I'll leave it there for others to debate. Slainte.
Some stuff I've made.
Edited 11/5/2002 12:15:29 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Good advice, Sgian. The issue of a series of cuts from the same piece of stock and/or dadoes. ...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I guess everyone is entitled to think what he or she likes. I don't agree with you for a little over 60 years my father who was a builder & custom cabinet maker by trade & also made windows at one time in his life set his saw's fence about 1/64 wider on the outfeed side of the blade. It has had no effect on the product what so ever.
As long as the width of the cut on the infeed side is what you want it to be the material will ride against the fence from the start of the fence through the blade infeed side. I have noticed that divergence is only noticeable (seen) right at the very end next to the fence. In my case no more than the last 5".
My fence was set at 1/64 wider at the back of the blade than the front of the blade & it has never made any noticeable difference in the end product. Besides that most wood will expand & contract almost this amount or maybe more.
I kinda get a chuckle this is on an Exacta-I-Rip fence on the large Craftsman contractor saw. I got this saw in November 1997 & set it up & assembled the fence with loctite & adjusted the fence this way back then, I just went & checked it, it's right on the money. For a fence that I've seen so many bad posts about, I sure don't see any problem. But then again I've always claimed it was the operators that were the problem not the fence.
Bart, set your fence out of line with your sawblade if you prefer. I don't use your machine-- and it doesn't matter to me.
I have noticed that divergence is only noticeable (seen) right at the very end next to the fence. In my case no more than the last 5".---- only the last 5"? That's telling you something,......isn't it, and if not, why not? Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Sgian your a professional in your own right. But like I said it doesn't make a difference in the finished product. There are several professional shops that use this procedure. So I say your right in your case & the rest of us are right in our case. Hurray we all win.
I have noticed that divergence (in the fence) is only noticeable (seen) right at the very end next to the fence. (You can't see it at the back of the blade when it is running.) In my case no more than the last 5".---- only the last 5"?
That's telling you something,......isn't it, and if not, why not? Slainte.
Yes it tells me I have clearance at the back of my blade where it doesn't need to make contact with the material because the material has already been cut. If it isn't making solid contact with the blade it may not be able kick back. So approximatly 90 years combined experience between my father & myself can't be completely wrong.
Be happy make sawdust.
Edited 11/9/2002 9:45:34 PM ET by Bart
I agree, Bart. Setting the fence to deliberately toe out from the blade as you prefer does tell you that you have clearance at the end of the cut--- between the fence and the rear upcutting teeth of the blade-- in your case it's the last five inches or so of the rip cut where you say you notice the result of skewing the fence. Force of logic suggests therefore that the offcut side of the piece is being directed into the the upcutting rear teeth, and this probably doesn't matter if the offcut is a thin sliver. As long as you are happy and comfortable in using a saw set up this way, I'll certainly not argue. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Dennis...I bet if you hadn't checked it you'd have never noticed. So how straight was it to begin with before you put the steel on it. Also if that side is bellied is the other side bowed in. If that's the case than you could put in on two blocks and use a jack to tweak it. The question is how much does it bother you? After all it is woodworking and not building rockets. I agree with Sgian about not angling the fence. Keep it as parallel as you can get it. That toe out thing goes back to the days of junky stock fences. Do those grip tite things really help you? Years ago a friend bought some of thse wheels you mount on the fence. Tried those once. Most of those things just slow me down and get in the way in my experience.
A simple way to see if your fence is parallel without fancy measuring equipment is to rip a piece of MDF. MDF just shows he tooth marks better than anything else. Then look at the edges that were cut. You should see the marks from front and back of the blade on both respective pieces. One shop I worked in had a beam saw and that was the how we lined up the blade, by reading the cut.
rsl -
Acutally I did check it when I assembled up the saw.I think the varialtion is due to that steel plate since I don't recall that there was that much variation before.
But to put the whole question in perspective, I think you're quite right - we're working with wood, a material that will change dimensions to at least that order of magnitude to made a few thou here and there somewhat moot. Internal stresses in a piece of wood can, and do produce quite a bit of deformation during a cut, too. The main thing I suspect is securing the piece to ensure that the portion between the blade and the fence travels in as straight a line as possible and stays put until it exits the saw table.
If I were grinding crankshafts instead of making lidded boxes or milling dovetails for an end mill instead of cutting shelf dados then I'd suspect I'd be more concerned.
The fence will go back (to as close as I can get it) parallel today.
Thanks for the reasoned replies. ...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Go with whatever you find comfortable. Most of the things you bring up are minor issues. If you wait for the manufacturers to "finish" designing the tool you will never live to see it done. As far as tenoning jigs...one option is to make the kind that rides on your fence or just modify the standard tenoning jig. When I started woodworking we didn't have most of the stuff available today so we just modified or made our own. The LT Unisaw is the same quality as the RT, just a mirror image. I used to work as a tech at a place that sold wood machinery and saw the LT Unisaw when it was first introduced as well as the Jet left tilt. The left tilt isn't any safer per se but certain operations are safer on each respective saw.
I'm sure marketing had a lot to with Delta making a left tilt. They figured they were losing customers who went with Powermatic or Craftsman. I have a PM left tilt/Biesemeyer and none of those things you call inconviences make the slightest difference in efficient use of the saw. I've been using both left and right tilt for years and you figure out how to make things work. A quick modification of the cursor bracket takes care of of any dado or blade reference issues.
Rick
Edited 11/1/2002 12:35:52 PM ET by rsl
Is it easy to modify the cursor on Lt Biesemeyer set up? How is it done? Can it be accomplished with a simple pencil mark(or a permanent option,such as Paint) at the new zero reference line? Thanks for your help.
Rocky...It appears that Biesemeyer changed the cursor design a bit. Mine has a plastic plate with the adjustment holes that goes between the cursor and part that rides on the rails. By making a new adjustment part with longer holes I can position the zero reference point any where I want, even on either side of a 3/4" dado. I've even referenced to the middle of the dado in some applications. The new style could still be modified to work the same way. The idea is to have one line that you can reposition where ever you want to reference from. You could also get a digital read out but it's over kill for most.
http://www.proscale.com/products/general_purpose/model_250.htm
Rick
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