Replies

1. 
   h12721 | Oct 16, 2005 04:19am | #1

   Parallel to +.003, not more. 

   Hilary

2. 
   mudman | Oct 16, 2005 05:01am | #2

   Parallel. I have yet to fear a good reason to toe out.

   Mike

3. 
   Dave45 | Oct 16, 2005 05:03am | #3

   I'm firmly in the parallel camp.  If you're off, you'll wind up shaving the workpiece as the blade comes up.  If you're dead-on, there's no shaving.  The worst cuts I ever made (well, partially anyway) were when I had the tail of the fence closer to the blade than the front.  Man, did that get ugly!!!

4. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2005 08:54am | #4

   Oh boy, here we go!  Well, anyway, I'm in the parallel camp.  I have need to occasionally move my fence to the other side of the blade, and no way am I going to go through all that alignment crp every time.  My Freud blade runs true, the fence is stable, and I use a featherboard when appropriate, so I see no reason to "toe out" the fence.

   If the blade is burning, then operator technique, blade sharpness or cleaness, splitter alignment/squareness or blade squareness should be checked out.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

5. 
   BarryO | Oct 16, 2005 09:09am | #5

   Parallel, definitely parallel.

   Otherwise, the back teeth will burn either the piece of wood on one side or the other, depending on which way the fence is out of alignment.  A splitter (you always use a splitter for safety, right?) will prevent binding. 

   If you really, really, want more space between the back teeth an the fence, use a half-fence.  That's the correct way to do this type of thing.

6. 
   Knotscott | Oct 16, 2005 02:13pm | #6

   It was blade manufacturer reps at wwing shows that first informed me about the toe out concept...one from Oldham, the other from Forrest. ...About the thickness of a folder dollar bill....okay he'd ask for a $20 if he could get one. Don't know if it's right or wrong, but the reps both brought it up without solicitation from me, and both seemed to be credible sources. Both were cutting very even paper thin slices too.

1. 
   Quartersawn | Oct 16, 2005 06:53pm | #7

   Actually, the show (probably the same reps) was the source of the out-of-parallel idea for myself, as well.  I'm trying to recall what Forrest says in their literature,; I think "go parallel".  Forest Girl thinks its operator error.  Good thing you're a girl! Them's fightin' words.

   What got me going on this was a recent project where I had to rip 24 hard maple slats.  I did get some burning, which planed off easily.  What bothered me more was that slight drag that you get (plus the burning) when those back teeth are in the kerf.  Also, is it just me, or does maple tend to close up more than other wood?  I do use a Merlin splitter, otherwise I might be wearing some of that maple in my navel.

   Splitter alignment is a good place to start, I think.  Thanks all.

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2005 08:33pm | #9

   I have the Merlin also, QS.  Ain't it cool!?  Make sure it's not only in line with the blade but also 90* to the table.  With stock splitters, that can be really difficult.  The Merlin's easier.  Do you use a featherboard on the infeed side?  I found that to be the biggest help when ripping.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   Quartersawn | Oct 17, 2005 01:59am | #12

   Ahhh! The featherboard does make sense.  I tend to use them only on very narrow stock,  but will try it on all cuts.  I have the magnetic featherboards for wider boards.

   Don't get me wrong.  I have a very satisfactory saw setup.  I used to go straight from the saw to edge-to -edge glueups, before I got my jointer.  I'm just trying to refine my setup and I really respect your opinions and experience.  Forest Girl, your just plain cool.  Cant't believe you have that same splitter.  We're kindred spirits.

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 17, 2005 07:43am | #13

   "The featherboard does make sense."  Oh, yesssss.  I don't think it's the brute force, but the perfectly stable, just-sufficient holding point.

   Careful on lauding my "experience" -- it's pretty focused.  My opinions?  Hah! Laud away!  ;-)) forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   mudman | Oct 17, 2005 05:10pm | #14

   Yea, the Forrest packaging shows setting the blade parallel to the slot.

   Forest Girl I'd like to hear Charles M's take on this.

   Mike

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 17, 2005 08:51pm | #16

   "...the Forrest packaging shows setting the blade parallel to the slot."  Uhhhhhh, I don't think the picture on the package is going to show any .002 toe-out. :-) 

   OK, searching, searching,......Oh, in the process, I found a repsonse from Richard Jones, so that's here.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=26010.13

   Searching, searchin.....Oh! and JohnWWhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=26010.7

   Hey!  There he is!  OK, this is one from Charleshttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=23226.50 but that's not the one I'm looking for.  (BTW, I wouldn't bother reading the rest of that thread.  It got pretty ridiculous, ROFL!)

   This is the one I was remembering, more physics in this one:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=23226.54forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 17, 2005 08:53pm | #17

   OK, now I'm going to bookmark that post so I never have to search for those again!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   mudman | Oct 18, 2005 07:57pm | #20

   F.G.,

   Thanks for digging up that post. What Charles says makes a lot of sense. I agree with the reasons he states that a little toe out is better. I have heard a lot of explanations and reasons for toeing out but to me they never made sense. His reason makes perfect sense. I reciently moved into my new shop (2000 sqft. !!) and I was dialing in the saw after the assembly. Hope I never have to do that again. I'll go back today and add a little toe out.

   Every one should read Charles argument. Well I'll copy it below...

   "The arbor bores of our saw blades can never be "EXACTLY" on size since there is a certain amount of tolerance in everything. Even though we use the most accurate machines to produce the blades, if we attempted to come as close as possible to the stated arbor size there would be some that were actually undersized. Therefore we aim for a size that is slightly over so that on the low end of the tolerance we will be on size and on the high end wwe will be even more oversized. This is to avoid an interference fit. (The actual tolerance on a 5/8" bore is 0.0625" +0.0007/-0.0000 which means the machine is set to make the bore 0.062535")

   This is logic behind why I recommend toeing the fence. I don't espouse "angling" the fence, merely allowing for variance by setting for a toe out that is equal to half of the tolerance you are able to hold. This will decrease the odds of having a toed in fence which we all agree is bad.

   Charles MFreud America, Inc."

    

    

   Mike

3. 
   WhatKnot | Oct 19, 2005 05:14am | #21

   Mike, I totaly agree with Charles. Charles biggest point is that no two blades, saws, fences, arbors, etc.. are exactly the same. Throw in a good dose of mishandling during shipping, stocking, etc., and a blade can end up a lot worse than the factory specs. If you feel more comfortable with .005 toe out, it probably won't make a lot (if any) difference in the quality of your workmanship.

   Toe in can be a problem and is usually something most of us would want to avoid. However, I have heard that some folks like a little toe in when cutting bevels with a left tilt saw. I think it has a lot to do with people being cyclic by nature causing us to never walk in a perfectly straight line. 

   The modern philosphy (last year or so) is to set the fence as close to parrallel with the miter slot as possible, always allowing the error to fall to the "tow out" side. The flex in the fence will do the rest for you.

    

2. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2005 08:30pm | #8

   The guys at the shows are simply repeating the company line.  I suspect all of the blade manufacturers recommend a slight toeing out.  I know from his posts that Charles (Freud) does.  He makes his case in one of the threads (I'll try to find the link), but I still don't do it (sorry, Charles).  The main thing is, you want to make aboslutely sure! that there's no "toe-in" of the fence.  That would not be fun.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   Knotscott | Oct 16, 2005 10:49pm | #11

   I suspect your right.....toe "in" is bad, therefore error on the side of slight toe out. I suspose dead nuts parallel is fine too...just don't miss!

7. 
   MatthewSchenker | Oct 16, 2005 09:12pm | #10

   quartersawn,
   I'm admittedly no expert on the table saw, and my guess is you are at about the same level.

   My feeling is, why would I add another level of fine-tuning to my table saw set-up if there is not a compelling reason to do it?

8. 
   WhatKnot | Oct 17, 2005 06:31pm | #15

   You should always set your fence parallel to the miter slots as well as your blade. The miter slot is your only stable reference which is why you must us it.

   There isn't a commercially available fence made that can hold "dead on" while under pressure so setting up for a 3-5 thousandths toe out is absolutely unnecessary it will happen automatically.

9. 
   WillGeorge | Oct 18, 2005 02:03am | #18

   I for one have tried both ways.. Exactly parallel and about 1/16 inch toe out on the out-feed end..

   With the splitter set right it does not seem to matter for most sticks..

   But then again SOME wood does what it wants to!

1. 
   EdHarrison | Oct 18, 2005 05:56am | #19

   Parallel.

   I use the guard, the splitter and the anti-kickback pawls.  Everything that can be adjusted about the saw is adjusted to "dead nuts."  I use a zero clearance throat plate.  The fence is adjusted to ride just a RCH above the cast iron table.  I use a featherboard.  I have three different kinds of pushsticks to use depending on what I am cutting.  I use a good Freud combo blade for most stuff.  A nickle on edge on the cast iron table will stay on edge when the saw starts.  The dust collection works.

   The only thing that bothers me about my American-style table saw right at this very moment is that there is some rust on the table where I got some overspray on it from spraying some mosquito repellant on my arms prior to going outside and chainsawing some more hurricane-tossed 32-inch diameter pine tree.  Man that stuff is corrosive!