Ripping blades for the tablesaw
forestgirl
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I want to buy a blade specifically for ripping for my Jet contractor’s saw. I was going to go for Systimatic or Forrest, based on vague memories of user comments here at Knots. But the local availability of Freud blades is tempting me.
I’m happy with the combination blade I have now, so am interested in info on ripping blades, and fine crosscutting blades.
Anyone out there have real-life experience with the Freud and can comment pro or con? Is there any draw-back to the Teflon coating?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Hi Forest Girl: How are you? I see your wondering about Freud blades, I can tell you that I use Freud blades my self and have had good luck with them, some dont care for the teflon coating, guess there scared the teflon will come off with hard use, I havent had any problems with that.. you might be interested in there10 inch 24 tooth ripping blade about $50.00.. I use there teflon combination blade 10 inch 50 tooth about $60.00 model Lu84R011use it for both ripping and cross cutting on the table saw for crosscutting you might try there teflon ultimate cutoff blade 10 inch Lu85R010 80 tooth ATB about $70.00.. You can check them out on the net at http://www.amazon.com the tool crib of the north,
Do you ever go on the workbench magazine web site there forums are cool the owner of Freud.. Charles Freud hangs there in the power tool forum you could post your Freud questons there Im sure he could better answer your blade questons..
As a after thought, sorry I get them now cause IM older.. have you ever tried OldHam blades both there steel & carbide blades are excellent, Home Depot carries them and Lowes, if not maybe you could order em there a little less in cost as the Freuds, but are a very good blade and a good value as we all like to save a few bucks.. more bucks saved more toys err I mean tools we can buy..
Take Care & Happy Woodworking... ToolDoc
Edited 9/10/2002 11:18:38 AM ET by TOOLDOC
Jamie:
I also use Freud exclusively. I choose Freud originally as I can get two blades for the price of one Forrest. I switch blades as job requires. I use the TK 80 tooth fine cross-cut for excellent, smooth finish that end grain will be exposed.
I use TKR 60 tooth for normal cross-cutting and the TKR 906 50 tooth combo for ripping for close to glue-up. I just purchased a TKR206 24 tooth rip. Have not used it yet. Will run some lumber through tomorrow as I am off for appointment. Will let you know. It is a pure rip. One tooth and a big gullet for waste removal. 15* hook ATB. Don't expect glue up smooth. It's made to go with more aggressive cut and removal if you're doing a lot of ripping down to size.
I use a CMT stiffner with all my TK's. In 4/4 they are all excellent. 8/4 very good with the de-tuned 2 HP TS if use. Like I said, will let you know on the 24 rip.
Pros or cons to Teflon. The only con I've found is if you enjoy cleaning picth off your blades, you may have to borrow a blade from a freind who does not have it. Otherwise you'll have to look for something else to keep you busy.
IMO only, of course.. Don't know where I might find any walnut to run that rip test with....nah...never mind.grin<>
sarge..jt
I've used the Freud thin-kerf (3/32") ripping blade on an underpowered saw. The blade cuts very effeciently and leaves a smooth edge. I've had no trouble ripping 8/4 poplar and 5/4 walnut. Good luck.
i bought a diablow by freud. It has some kind of goldish teflon finish. It was an emergency purchase at Home %&*( im not all that impressed. It didnt have a flat top on the carbide. It was actually a ATB style. Its ok, but id have rather have bought a better rip blade. FWIW, i think the non teflon blades from freud are ok, but ive been turned on by the blades that grinding shops sell. They are dang good blades with out all the advertising to raise the costs.
I also agree that Forrest makes a top quality TS blade, I own a couple myself. I have been thinking about purchasing a Rip blade, and the first attempt was with CMT's Rip Blade. I was not satisfied, I returned the blade, I went back to using Forrest, and now that I have read this discussion I am considering trying it again.
Assuming the TS is in alignment and I will be ripping 8/4 in either Maple, Mahogany, or Cherry will I notice any difference using the 30 tooth WWII blade Vs. the 40 tooth WWII blade? These are Forrest Saw Blades I am referring to.
Thanks for your input - MSD
i noticed in another ww magazine, that forrest was adding custom blades to its line, left and right skew blades (for table saw dovetails, a rip blade and a few other custom blades. I think they have always done this but im guessing they are keeping a few in inventory due to demand.
About a year ago I spoke to Forrest's tech support and discussed with them which blades they recommended for ripping. They said that their 40 blade was good for up to 1" and with the blade fully raised may work on 1 1/2". However, they recommended their 30 tooth blade as their best for ripping hardwood thicker than 1". Makes sense to me also.
Lert:
I ran the rip test mentioned. I tried to think what kind of wood you might be using. I decided to use 3 in 2 different sizes to see what happens. I used poplar, douglas fir and white oak. 2 different thicknesses. 6/4 and 4/4. The moisture content was between 8% and 11% on all peices.
I also discovered my Freud rip is a TK but not the teflon. I've had it several months and caught it on sale @ $18.95. I think they were clearing for new stock. It is the TK 206, not TKR 206. Here's what I found:
The rip gave a much smoother cut than I had expected in both the 4/4 & 6/4. At normal feed rate all species breezed through without a whimper. I cleaned up the edges with 180 grit in a jiffy. The oak required 150 grit b-4 the 180.
Decided to speed up the feed to see if it was a problem. Again they moved right through without any resistance. I took a steady stance to side and got pretty aggressive while keeping alert. I normally let the saw and blade dictate the feed. Not a hint of kick-back. It was not locust mind you, but I was impressed with the blade performance and the smoothness of the cut. Wasn't much rougher that the TKR 50 tooth I normally use. Just for fun I ran a peice of pressure -treat through that was about 14% moisture content. Had to slow feed rate down a little but now sweat.
That's how I spent an hour in the shop. Hope this info will be useful in your decision. I know what I learned from all this.... Works For Me!! Good Luck...
sarge..jt
Jamie,
I bought 2 Freud LU84M011 combination blades last week at woodworkers warehouse for $29.99 ea. They were on sale in thier flyer. They also had the TK 60 tooth on sale for the same price. I don't care how good a Forest blade is, I could buy 4 of these for the price of one forest. My jointer will take care of the rest.
TDF
Edited 9/10/2002 9:47:17 PM ET by Tom Ferreira
Now that I have a jointer, I can say that too!!! :-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
...AMEN...
Hello, I have a little note to pass along. I have always thought it to be a little funny that a shop or person would have a $1600.00 cabinet saw and place a $29.95 blade in it. Your blade and bits are your most critical investment, If they do not perform well, your work and profit margin will pay the price. Now to forest girl we have a number of Forrest blades that live on our saws. I would highly recomend the 30 tooth WWII if you plan to dedicate it soly for ripping, it will stay sharper longer and cut smoother than any of the other blades on the market, as well Forrest does a great job of resharpening. We just retired a blade that was resharpened 15 times (you can do the math).
chris:
If I were a production shop, I agree with what you said. I don't have a $1600 saw and I don't run the saw 8 hours a day. I alternate between 3 blades, now 4. I have had excellent results with the Freud and the blades are still pretty sharp after 2 years. When I deem them dull, I will put them aside for junk cutting and buy a new one. (You didn't mention the price of a factory re-sharpening of Forrest). Look at the original post. FG did not ask for a comparison of Forrest to Freud. She only inquired about the Freud. There is much difference in the comparison.
Yes, I agree that Forrest is the ticket for the better blade. But, that was not the question originally asked in the post. I will try a Forrest in the future ( I can afford one )as I have heard nothing but good in this forum. I think FG has enough knowledge of the Forrest to make a choice based on her budget and needs.
Thanks for the info and continue enjoying that Forrest. When I try the Forrest I may change my tune, but I still got plenty of blade life left at the moment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Have a great day and remember Sept. 11th..
sarge..jt
". ... I have always thought it to be a little funny that a shop or person would have a $1600.00 cabinet saw and place a $29.95 blade in it. Your blade and bits are your most critical investment, If they do not perform well, your work and profit margin will pay the price. "
Chris -
I totally agree. While I don't have a legacy of experience from which to draw, I do have the experience of going from cheap hardware store blades on a cheap/old/out-of-tune Craftsman table saw to a Forrest WWII blade on the same saw. In some ways I would imagine it would make more sense to spend the money on the blade rather than the saw. The improvement in quality of cut was dramatic.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Hi Chris, I did just the opposite when I bought my first saw (a little $99 bench-top model on sale at Ace for $79). I put an $89 blade on it, and it cut like a dream!!!! That experience convinced me very quickly how important a good blade is.
Have you used any of the better Forrest competitors? Eg., Systimatic, Freud. I have always had Forrest at the top of my wish-list, but as I said earlier, local availability of the Freud makes it very attractive. Not trying to pinch pennies particularly, though a few extra never hurt.forestgirl -- Remembering the heroes and the victims
Look at FS Tool or the other industrial blades (Royce etc...the ones sold mostly through sharpening shops)....much more blade for much fewer dollars than Freud. I've used lots of Freuds , and bought some when I had too...generally, I don't think they are a very good blade and way overpriced.....someone has to pay for that glossy ad campaign in a gazillion magazines, eh? Forrest are also way overhyped, IMHO.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Edited 9/11/2002 2:49:15 PM ET by Adrian
Yes FS blades are an excellent heavy duty blade, We currently have one on our miter saw. However our dealer sells them for almost as much as the Forrest and we have grown to love the latter. To each his own.
An FS Tools rip costs me $59 Cdn. The equivalent Freud would be about $40 more in these parts. A Forrest would cost me roughly $100 more than the FS Tool, a little more or less depending on the model. Not worth it to me.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Excuse me Chris but aren't you the guy that said the following in post #4?:
"I've used the Freud thin-kerf (3/32") ripping blade on an underpowered saw. The blade cuts very effeciently and leaves a smooth edge. I've had no trouble ripping 8/4 poplar and 5/4 walnut. Good luck."
Secondly, I fail to see the correlation between saw price and blade quality. I have a $2100 Powermatic 66 and use Frued blades. I've a;ways had great results. Maybe the Forrest is good, but I don't think it is a good value.
TDF
No different Chris.
OK, If your happy with your freud blades good for you. I however think they are not the best blade for my shop, when you compair price, # of sharpenings, length of time between sharpenings, and overall quallity of cut.
Im very glad you have a powermatic 66 that you paid over $2000.00 (nice little saw) but you really should put a better blade on it.
does size matter?
we are apperently in two different leagues if you need to impress me with your tools.
Chris,
Your the one who started with the cost of saw verses cost of blade. I frankly don't care what your saw is or what league your in. To each his own blade I guess. I get about four sharpenings and two years out of a Frued combination blade and thats a good value for me. Maybe in your league thats not. So be it!
TDF
I'm behind that thin blade comment. I have a Freud blade but the thin kerf version with the teflon as well. It is not a rip blade. But it rips like a dream.
Most often when I get the smoky stall, I find my plade all pitched up or at least the gullets are pitch plated. At that point I swap it for whatever will get me thru (don't discount a planer blade, those are a great value) the cut and job.
To get the pitch off I take the Dow oven cleaner to the blade. By laying it in the laundry tub and spraying a foamy coat, flipping it (not with my fingers as that stuff is caustic) and spraying the other side. Let it sit for 10 minutes then brush it with a dish brush (again not the one we use on the china) Flip it and brush then rinse the mess down the drain. Works really well.
Booch, if you didn't already see it, you might want to take a look at Charles' cautionary statement about oven cleaner and what it can do to blades (this has been my chosen method for cleaning also, but no more):
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=7834.58forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Aww,
I'm gonna start changing right after I use up the last of the can. It is almost gone anyway. Gotta build up some worry and guilt. Not hard for a kid from a parochial school.
Now you have me wondering if there is any deleterous effect that has already occured. I guess that is motivation to buy a new blade.
You know your note really bummed me out at first. Now a reason to go tool shopping. Thanks.
It's that "silver lining" syndrome, huh?! Have fun!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've been using a 50 tooth FS blade made here in Canada for all my ripping and crosscutting for three years. Believe it or not it's the blade that came stock with my General saw. I like to keep my blades fairly sharp at all times and found I have only needed to sharpen this blade once in three years. It's now due to be sharpened again. Twice in three years is not to bad since I use the saw for at least a couple of hours every day and feed material like Padauk, Ebony, Walnut, Cherry, Cocobolo through it. I also bought a 80 tooth for my chop saw which leaves a glass smooth cut. Dimar also make a great saw blade of high quality as well as excellent router bits. Both the Dimar and the FS are available locally and cost around 100 for a 50 tooth and 120 Canadian for a 80 tooth. Now for the forrest blade. If I wanted one of these, which I don't really feel the need for one, it would cost me 100 or a 110 American. I think that's roughly the price not positive though. In Canadian funds that's roughly 176 plus shipping and handling and duty at the border. Which translates into a blade that is extemely over price no matter how well it cuts in my opinion. Im not saying the don't cut like a dream. At that price I'm sure they do. You get what you pay for but if I was you guys with my US dollars you could pick up a Dimar or FS that I think would be very comparable to the Forrest for the price your paying for a cheaper Freud. Just a thought.
There's the idea around here that FS tool blades are as cheap as Freud or Dewalt's.There not.Check with Bull Sharpening.It's a bunch of bull.Bun intended.
They are nearly as expensive as a Forrest.For a company that doesn't spend the money on advertising(like Forrest) as they are touted here at this forum, they don't pass along the savings much to the consumer.Roland.
Roly it was I that posted a FS blade would cost the price of a freud. What I meant was if you bought a FS blade from a Canadian dealer with your US dollars a $110 Canadian blade would cost you around $70 US dollars which I assumed a good Freud blade cost you guys and gals. If this is not doable than I apologies. I don't recall mentioning a Dewalt blade as I have never even laid my hands on one.
I already quoted my current , non-special price for an FS Tools rip....$59 Cdn. What's that...thirty five bucks U.S, something like that....and it's an American blade, as far as I know? Other blades are also at the least competitive, and often significantly lower. And it's a top notch blade.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian
I will volunteer to try the FS blade. For $35 I'll try almost anything. Ha... I went back through this thread and did not see where I can get one. If it cost you $59 canadian, the $35 is approximately correct US. Where do you get yours or do you know where I can get one??
Thanks in advance Beautiful country up in NS ( in the summer anyway, grin<>)
Have a great day..
sarge..jt
try this link.....http://www.normand.ca/epromotion.html....go to page 5 in the promotional catalogue for the code....the hard copy has the prices, I don't know why the web version doesn't.
If I could get one thing across to folks....it would be to deal with the industrial suppliers, if you can.....the sharpeners or the industrial supply houses sell the best blades, not the retailers....the industrial supply houses sell the best power tools, not the boutiques, the DIY centres, or whatever.....the plastic housing may be the same, the guts aren't. And the prices, for what you get, are lower.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian
Thanks again. What you said about industrial suppliers and sharpeners was also said by another poster. That tips me off to it's worth following up on. I will do some digging and see what pops up. Hopefully it will lead to pay-dirt! Grin<>
sarge..jt
Adrian,
I see on the link you offered that Delta has a router. Never seen one here, are they common in Canada? Delta doesn't list them on their web site.
Don
Adrian,
I have to challenge your claim that sharpeners and industrial houses are the only place to buy quality tools and cutters. These places often carry lesser known brands because they can't compete directly with the larger retailers, not because Brand X offers a better product. When you go to the sharpener and find that your blade is shot beyond repair you will likely take his advice to buy a blade from his wall. But if that blade happens to be the same as one that you know you can find at a big box store you might hesitate to purchase from him, knowing you can likely get a better deal. If it's an obscure brand name that he presents as being a superior, industrial only product you will more likely buy it and be happy. Is the blade truly superior or is it just marketing? Freud blades are available at Home Depot and at industrial supply houses and at sharpening shops. There are inferior brands available but each premium brand also has certain blades that outperform the comparable blades from other premium manufacturers. The trick is to find the best blade for the application from the best source. This thread started because Forest Girl wanted to know if the Freud rip blade that was available locally was a good choice. Do you have comparative data on the FS vs. the Freud? I apologize if this seems like a flame. That is not my intent. I only hope that you will provide something to validate your statements.
Substantiation...ok, I'll address some of your points. What I have said, though, is simply my opinion, based on buying and using thousands of dollars worth of blades (including a fair number of Freuds), visiting and working in many industrial and small shop, and comparing notes with other woodworkers and sharpeners....still just my opinion.
Re: the saw shops..."If it's an obscure brand name that he presents as being a superior, industrial only product you will more likely buy it and be happy". That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about buying well recognised industrial brands from people that service industrial users....and I rarely see Freuds in those situations. I see FS Tools, Leuco, Leitz, Royce/Ayr, maybe Dimar....I know where to go to buy Galt, Gladu, and Guhdo. No one is trying to push some new no-name wonder blade on me. I can buy most of those brands also through the industrial supply houses...again, they are dealing with very particular and demanding customers in high use situations. I see them picking up and dropping lines they have trouble with, and folks can be pretty blunt about which blades they have problems with, and which they don't. And you know and I know, there ARE 'industrial' tools that are sold to industry, and that don't get advertised in popular woodworking magasines and the DIY. We also know that calling something 'industrial' doesn't necessarily make it so.
"There are inferior brands available but each premium brand also has certain blades that outperform the comparable blades from other premium manufacturers. The trick is to find the best blade for the application from the best source." I agree with you. Freuds LU85 is a good blade, IMO, and I've bought a couple....I would buy another possibly. So there you go, a plug.
"Do you have comparative data on the FS vs. the Freud?" Not specifically, no: my comments are based on buying and using many of each, and I will pick FS Tool, or some of the other real industrial blades, hands down, every time, even if the price was identical because of outstanding quality in every single blade I have had from them. NO quality issues. And the price differential, in any of the three Canadian provinces I have worked in, is significant (I'd use a ballpark $40 a blade).....I can always expect to pay a substantial premium for what seems to me to be a lighter duty blade if I stray from the brands that have proven to be reliable performers to me. Router bits are even worse, often the premium is 100%. I think Freud does pretty well on shaper tooling, on the other hand.
Anyway, I'm not looking for a flame war here either, just stating my opinion as even handedly as I can. I think Freud makes a decent blade, aimed at recreational and small shop pro users, and the accessability of the blades to those users is a plus. I will buy one when I don't have an alternative, and I know it will do the job, but I feel I get better value for the dollar from an industrial blade.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
That's damn well said and I wish you would comment about whether the blades you mentioned (the industrial brands) have Teflon coatings or not. My guess is that they don't and I think it's for a reason, don't you?
Never noticed one on any of the blades I mentioned. Never seen teflon in a true industrial situation, either, but that's just my personal experience.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian,you are the one that put me in pursuit of the FS tools blade.I was looking for a crosscut blade that cut accurate and glass smooth as I make picture frames out of 7/8" thick oak,3" wide.This requires a machinist's accuracy.I was thinking of buying the Forrest and you recommended FS tools.
Well I did a search on the web and the only distributor at the time,for a FS tools crosscut blade(it was an 80 tooth also),was Bull sharpening.They charged nearly as much as a Forrest.
Steve Schefer recommended a certain Systimatic blade which I eventually bought.Steve is one of the most helpful people here at this forum.However,no disrespect Steve,the blade isn't quite sufficient for what I do.It cuts fairly accurate;however,it doesn't leave a glass smooth surface.It is an 80 tooth blade.Perhaps that isn't enough teeth for a carbide blade to leave a glass smooth surface.Maybe one needs a 120 or something.
If one ever purchases one of Sears,non-carbide,all steel blades(72 teeth) you will see what I mean by glass smooth.The endgrain is literally like someone chopped the wood with a guillotine or sanded it with a disc.As smooth as glass,no hyperbole .Problem is they don't cut accurate enough for what I do.That may seem like a paradoxical statement at first but try it and you'll see.
So the problem with me hitherto has been: 6 of one,half a dozen of th' other as we say down south.I'm game for buying a Freud or Dewalt priced FS tools crosscut blade if someone can recommend where I can find one priced as such.Other wise I reckon I am going to have to go with the Forrest.Thanks tons everyone,Roland.
I have never seen teflon on industrial blades either. I have also never seen 1 1/2 HP contractors saws struggling through industrial situations. I have also never seen an American Table Saw with a decent riving knife or a crown gaurd. I suspect there is a reason.. I just don't know what that reason might be.??
I have seen teflon on the bottom of most modern frying pans. I cook two meals a day. I suspect there is a reason. I just don't know what that reason might be.??
The reason is simple. You cook 2 meals a day because you are hungry!
Rich
Adrian,
Thanks for sharing yor opinions. I am pleased to have discovered this forum. It's good to be able to communicate these types of ideas and information in a civilized manner.
For Forest Girl's benefit I would like to clear up a couple of details from your last post. Although you don't say it outright, I feel you have implied that "FS Tools, Leuco, Leitz, Royce/Ayr, maybe Dimar....Galt, Gladu, and Guhdo" are industrial brands and that Freud is for "recreational and small shop pro users". The fact is that Freud's North American market, although huge, is only a small percentage of what we produce world wide and, of that production, nearly all is in panel saw blades, CNC insert router bits and large insert cutters. Yes, Freud is different from the manufacturers you mentioned, other than Leitz, in that we do produce blades for contractors and DIY, but as I mentioned in an earlier post we have many different product lines for many different potential users. The fact that you can find an LU85 at a lot of locations that aren't industrial supply houses doesn't mean it's not an industrial grade product. It means that we have established ourselves as having products that customers ask for by name. I'd also be interested to know how many 10" saw blades with 5/8" bores you buy that are made by Gladu and Guhdo.
And yes, Teflon (and even chrome plating) is used in "real industrial" applications. One example is on gang rip saws where, like on your own saw, there are issues with the wood twisting and warping as it is cut and rubbing the blade producing excessive heat.
I regret that Freud is not available in the places you prefer to shop and that you are unfamiliar with the types of products we produce. Perhaps you would like to peruse our main website to see some of them:
http://www.freud.it/
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Charles:
You are correct, I do see Freuds main market for saw blades as being the DIY or small shop....that's largely a function of rarely or never having seen a Freud on a panel saw, rip, gang rip or any other larger machine in an industrial setting. I guess someone must be buying them, and maybe I live a sheltered life, but I just don't see them, and I spend as much time in shops and plants as I can, and tooling is one of the areas I look for specifically. And as I've said, never seen teflon; possibly chrome. I was at Ligna last show too, and I certainly wasn't aware of teflon being a significant offering.
You are perfectly correct, maybe I couldn't get a 10" blade from Gladu or Ghudo....maybe I could, haven't checked, because I haven't needed to....but I definitely could from all the others.
Freud is available to me everywhere; I don't believe I have a supplier, except for the companies that handle their own sales, for any of the brands I've mentioned that doesn't or didn't handle Freud. It's not a matter of not being able to get it; it's that I prefer what I get from other companies....ditto on router bits. I have some insert shaper tooling on the other hand that I think is quite good, as I've said.
Bottom line for me (and I'm going to bow out now and leave you to it), is I see Freud being bought by and sold to a recreational, contractor, and small shop market, and the same distributors sell me and other more industrial users different brands. I've had consistent feedback from sharpeners in different parts of the country that confirm that. I'm not saying Freud is a bad product; I buy a Freud blade knowing that it will do the job. I do find them very expensive. I find the router bits very very expensive, in my region. Mileage may vary.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Well Howie hauled my butt over here. (Instigator! :-)) For those of you who do not know me I own a sharpening business in Glendal, Az.
There are so many postings from people I don't recognize that I will have to make my comments in general rather than addressing each poster.
As far as what sharpeners offer their customers. We have to stand behind what we propose our customers for their use. It would not pay to offer brands that would not stand up to whatever use the customer says they want their tooling for. It's our job to match the blade and when we do it tight customers bring them back for us to sharpen which helps pay for the CNC machinery to do the job correctly. Freud happens to do a lot of advertizing in publications that cater to home and small shop woodworkers. I do know that they have a heavier industrial line that does not show up in the catalogs most people see. As far as I am concerned the LU/LM series is the only one I would call industrial. I don't happen to be a fan of any kind of coatings. Charles is correct that other industrial brands do sometimes have coatings on them. Guhdo does in fact offer 10 and 12" blades with 5/8 and 1" bores respectively. For some reason FS Tool pricing in the states is higher than the straight dollar conversion would indicate. Leitz does in fact make the top of the line Delta blades.
As far as blade cleaning goes I happen to use Castrol Super Clean because I like to be able to work bare handed. Many saw shops use a Lye based solution (of which oven cleaner is a type). I asked a friend of mine last year who does pretinning for a living and he soaked some tips for 3 days and found no problem in getting solder to apply properly. His opinion after that was that while long term exposure may affect the surface of the carbide that the short cycle time used to clean saw blades would have no detrimental effects.
As to the original question of what blade to rip with. I would suggest any full kerf ripping blade with 20-30 teeth from a major manufacturer such as, but not limited to; Amana, Everlast, Freud, Tenryu, Systimatic, Leitz, Guhdo, FS Tool, Popular, Forrest. And check with your saw shop for pricing. Many times they are quite competitive with more accessable places.
Me thinks I am long winded :-)
Scott
Hi Scott, I'm the original instigator of this thread -- thanks to Howie for dragging your beehind over here! Since I'm probably one of the people you don't know, I'll explain that though I live only 9 miles from the city of Seattle, I'm on a small island with little access on "our side" of the water to big machine shops etc. So I must ask, what section of the Yellow Pages do I look in to find a "saw shop?"forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Being 1,900 miles from that city, if you were here you would look up something under cutting tools. It may be one of the headings under tools. Tools, cutting. Also around here, the vast majoriey will have to do with metal cutting supplies. So if there is nothing in the ads in your yellow pages, if may take a few phone calls.
Don
Edited 9/20/2002 4:51:48 PM ET by Don C.
Actually we "met" when you posted over in Woodnet about saw blade storage.
For some inane reason most industrial sharpeners are listed under "Saws - Sharpening and Repairing" in the yellow pages. Why they are not all listed under "Sharpening" I have not a clue. It may be different up your way.
Scott
Scott's Sharpening
Scott,
How large is the population where you live, and how industrial is it? Yellow pages are different from place to place. Try looking up tractors in Nebraska some time! haha Heck, you'd probably find: Tractors, audio systems!
Don
I am in Glendale, Az which is part of the Phoenix Metro area. Roughly 3 million in the valley. When I first started in this business I lived in Buellton, Ca. I think the whole county had less than 1/2 mil. The phone book there was set up the same even though it was GTE and I now have Qwest. Neither place would be considered heavy industrial like say, Pittsburgh. Seatlle probably has more industry than here but it also has it's share of electronics and a diverse population so I would assume a similar mix of service type businesses.
I just did a switchboard search on "Saws - Sharpening and Repairing" in Seattle and came up with 7 entries 3 of which I would rule out immediately because they list mower repairs.
It's always a good idea to check with cabinet makers in your area for their reccomendations.
Scott
I do understand your point about tractors in farm country.
Scott: Glad to see your here and have your input into this topic, Im the one who mentioned to Jamie < Forest Girl > to post her blade storage post over at workbenchs forum, i said that Charles from freud and you both post there and would be able to come up with the correct answers, and I was right.. I always read your postings at workbench, wood magazines forum and badger pond, glad your posting here too..its always nice when a person who does this stuff for a living takes the time from there work to help us out..
Take care...ToolDoc
Hi Charles, I got sidetracked today with some business problems, so am just getting my post done now. For others' benefit, I'm grabbing Charles' ear to ask now about cross-cutting blades also.
I need a super-good cross-cutting blade to do what is essentially the equivalent to picture moldings (though that's not exactly what I'm making). I will have thin (3/8" +or-) molding that's anywhere from 1-1/4" to 2-1/4"+ wide that I will stand on edge and run through my tablesaw (with the blade tilted to 45 degrees) to get mitered corners. This molding will then be used to face off what is in essence a shadowbox. My mitersaw is not accurate enough to do this, but my tablesaw is :-). (Sometime in the future, I'd probably make a cross-cut sled and miter it that way, I know! I know!)
At Rockler, I looked at the LU85R and the F80(?) [I wrote down F810]. The F80 costs about $15 more. The Freud catalog I have states the following for the two blades:
F80 -- maximum precision; has "Square Tooth" design, only a 2-degree hook angle Listed as excellent for crosscuts, and small runs of plywood and laminates.
L85R -- maximum finish crosscut; has very small clearance between teeth and blade body. Talks about "smooth as glass finish" yada, yada. Says that this minimal clearance could produce binding, doesn't make the design very appealing.
So, Charles, which of these blades (or a different one?) would you recommend and why? Is the "finish" produced from using the LU85R significantly smoother/better than if using the F80? What makes the F80 $15 better than the LU85R? How much cutting of plywood and laminates could I do with the F80? -- (that would help make the price difference worth it, as I need a good blade for those purposes also -- keep in mind I'm not making mountains of sawdust here, just small mole hills, LOL, maybe a foothill or two).
And, one quick ripping-blade question. Are the LM72R and LM72M exactly the same blade, with the Teflon being the only difference??
Thank you so much, Charles! Will appreciate any info you provide. Have a good weekend.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The F810 has very steep bevel angles on the teeth that do the best job of shearing fibers when crosscutting and the low hook angle means it won't tear out the bottom of veneered plywood. The steeper angles of the teeth are more suseptible to wear which is why it is intended for limited runs of sheet goods which tend to be rather abrasive. For production cutting of sheet material a Triple Chip grind is necessary.
The LU85R010 is also ATB but with a lower bevel angle and a more agressive hook angle. The LU85 is special in that the sides of the teeth have two angles instead of the usual single side relief angle. This results in a burnishing of the material as you cut and really does make the end grain smooth as glass. It won't perform as well on tricky material as the F810 but is by far the best dedicated solid wood crosscut blade.
So, I would recommend the LU85 if you will also be getting a dedicated plywood blade. If you wanted to have one blade for both the F810 is the better choice.
In regards to the rip blades, the LM72M010 is the same blade as the LM72R010 with the only difference being the Teflon coating. We have also just introduced a 30 tooth Triple Chip rip blade, LM74M/LM74R series, that is ideal for 1" and thinner stock (the LM72 series is now what we recommend for 3/4" and up). The new blade has only recently gone into production so it may be a little difficult to find. If you want the new one you can call our office and we might be able to help locate it for you. (800) 334-4107
HTH
CHarles M
Freud, Inc.
Well, let me try this again. Last 2 times the forum locked up on post and when I went back a page, I was off in another topic. This time I'm switching from Netscape to Opera. I must admit, for a magazine with such an outstanding rep your site leaves much to be desired. Let me guess, NT server? Enough flaming.
Forest_girl,
You mentioned back several messages that Delta blades are Leitz. Personally, I have never heard anyone boasting about having a great Delta blade. Mostly I have heard of people junking the blade that came with their saw. Leitz, on the other hand, I know to offer OUTSTANDING blades that I believe to be every bit the equal of Forrest at almost half the price. For a while, I was having problems finding someplace that sold them, but recently someone turned me on to http://www.carbide.com and I found them to offer excellent prices on Leitz blades (also best prices I have found for CMT bits). I would be very surprised to hear anything but good things said about Leitz blades (not talking about Delta blades, I mean the ones from Leitz, saying Leitz on them). Very highly recommended. (I also have a Forrest WWII, so I have compared.)
As for Freud, I have a 24 tooth red teflon rip. I wish it was a Leitz, then I wouldn't have to sand red off the wood after I rip a piece of stock. Especially bad with 8/4 maple. If all it's good for is thin stock, I can use a combo blade and get a better cut.
-Craig
Edited 9/16/2002 9:51:00 PM ET by CWDAYMON
Hi Craig, all of that frustration with the web site must have caused a memory lapse somewhere, LOL. "You mentioned back several messages that Delta blades are Leitz. " -- nope, not me. I'd never heard of Leitz, but with your encouragement, I'll certainly check them out!!
Hope the cyber-stuff goes better soon.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I included in my first response to your original message that I was using a "Delta (Leitz)" blade. Leitz are really high quality blades, I would suggest that you look at them whenever you are blade shopping. Here's a link on the company and a reseller:
http://www.leitz.org/leitz_english/unternehmen/index_unternehmen.html
http://www.woodtechtooling.com/Saw_Blades/Leitz_Saw_Blades/leitz_saw_blades.html
Craig, the sawblades that Delta ships with their platinum series of Unisaws are made by Leitz, they don't say 'Leitz' but they are in fact from them. Just by looking at the blade, you can tell that it's not a throwaway OEM... laser etching, thick carbide slugs on the tips, and very tight tolerances. I have been using this blade on a daily basis, I cleaned my Systimatic a while back and put it away...
Edited 9/17/2002 10:23:30 AM ET by JEFFN7
This may explain why the blade on the cheap little 8.25" miter saw I bought several years ago cut surprisingly well. Thanks for the links Jeff.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Craig:
I read the statement about sanding red off the wood using a TKR rip in 8/4 maple. Curious about what HP motor your saw has and do you run a stiffner when you have the TKR on the saw. I'm always tinkering and I'm trying to gather enough info to see if 2 + 2 = 4. If you have time, I would appreciate the info. Also, thanks for info Leitz as after 30 years still looking for a better moose-trap or ways to improve the one's I already got..grin>
Have a great day..
sarge..jt
Craig,
Teflon shouldn't be rubbing off on the material, particularly with a rip blade. Perhaps I can help remedy the problem. Do you know the item number of the Freud rip blade you own. Is it thin kerf?
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Charles,
I have an LM72R010. That's full kerf for those who were wondering.
Sarge,
My saw is a 3HP, Left Tilt JET Cabinet, "Anniversary Edition". I have a stiffener, but I usually only use that with my thin kerf WWII. Still, the issue of getting red on the wood shouldn't have anything to do with kerf or HP. The red is teflon and SHOULD NOT COME OFF.
Jeff,
Thanks for the response. How is Wood Tech Tooling on prices for the Leitz? I think Carbide.com has great prices, but if I can find better I don't owe them any special loyality.
-Craig
P.S. How many think it would be better to just respond to the topic rather than the individual, especially since it all falls into the same thread in the order it was received? Personally, I like the August Home board where the most active (based on responses) topics float to the top. Also, I've turned off e-mail notification. I can check once in a while.
CW,
I agree with responding to the topic. But then, if you want to address your response to a particular individual who has participated in the thread, you still have to do that. Here, that gets automatically done and you have to remove it if your response is to general.
6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.
Rich
pricing appears to be about the same. Personally, I like Carbide.com as well, their prices are competitive, fast shipping and the service is great.
Jeff
The reason I ask was I had big red show up on 6/4 maple 3 years ago after I switched to Freud. I have a 1 1/2 HP which is under-powered for the really hard-woods like maple, ash and hickory in 8/4. IMO. I was going to rip 4 pieces of maple 6" wide for a work-bench. The first piece got about 12 or 13 inches when I got the kick-back and condition red. I stopped the saw and re-checked everything. I had a TKR 906 combo on the saw. Opps.. I goofed with the set-up on rear of fence. I had measured incorrectly 3 times as I forgot front measure-ment and set the fence 1/8" to close to blade. Pinched. If it had been off away from blade it wouldn't have kicked.
Reset fence measure-ments and continued with a slow feed. The next day I bought a stiffner and haven't had a problem since. So Yes, that teflon will come off under heavy abrasion. I know.. I now take all ash, maple and hickory over 6/4 to a neighbors that has a PM 66. IMO much safer that over-working the saw.
I am curious to see what Charles M comes up with as I agree that under normal circumstances ( your 3HP using a 1/8" blade I consider normal) the teflon should not have come off. That's why I ask kerf width and HP. I have seen some that think a TK on an under-powered saw is the second coming of Christ. Just shoot that Ligumvitae right through. I realize it's capabilities and the 1 1/2's also. I try to match my HP to a proper blade. When I feel I'm over-matched I take it to that big horse at my neighbors. Can't pull a beer wagon with a pony, unless you're going down-hill and the pony is gonna get hurt eventually.
Standing by for CM's answer as I don't know, but am sure curious.
sarge..jt
Craig,
I agree to post to all. The situation you describe is a perfect example of why Teflon is a benefit. The red that has rubbed off onto the wood is evidence that the wood was in contact with the blade and an uncoated blade would have experienced intense heat from the contact, possibly damaging it. For the wood to contact the blade either the wood was closing/twisting/warping after the cut or the saw was misaligned. Since you possibly have an alignment issue you should check and adjust the saw carefully. Also, the need for a splitter is definite. Check the blade height and ensure that about 1/2 of a tooth is above the material and no more. For ripping 8/4 stock (1-1/2") you have the correct blade. If this doesn't help you can send the blade to me for evaluation.
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
I'm hoping not to get this thread of track from saw blades, but wanted to clarify something on the "Reply" issue. When a reply is addressed to the person who wrote the post (eg., 7834.86 or whatever) then that person will see the thread show up in his/her "Unread Messages to 'Me'" list. Makes it easier and faster to spot if the user's doing a quick check on messages s/he's involved in.
Back to saw blades. This is a great thread! Thanks Charles (again)!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
not to mention what oven cleaner does to the environment... simple green and a scrub brush is my solution.
Edited 9/17/2002 10:04:53 AM ET by JEFFN7
Chris, I'm still curious to know if you've put any miles on a Freud blade (in the past, obviously) that provides you with the comparison info.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
hey, a , forest girl,
it's only natural that you use a forrest blade, becus both you and the blade are from the same place, the forest, now, if you were from the great plains I guess you could use a plain 'ol blade, I'm sure Sigmund Froid uses a froid blade, anyway, whaddaya need a blade for rippin, anyway, just grab it with both hands and rip it apart.no turn left unstoned
?
Rich, he gets like this sometimes. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It comes from inhaling too much Briwax fumes.
Hi Rich.
You Guys crack me up. ;>)
What about the CMT blades, you know the orange one. I recently purchased one for my Makita slider cms but have not used it extencivly . It cuts real nice, I was thinking about trying a rip blade out , any feed back on there (CMT) rip blade.
Take care ALL. Have a good friday. Rick
I think spell check is wacked out again. I tink..........
"I think spell check is wacked out again." Yes, well, it did take me a couple of seconds to figure out what "extencivly" meant, LOL. Rick, it's sure great to have you back!!
extensivelyforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
HiYa F_G
Soooooooo that's how you spell extencivly, it did not look right to me but I am the worlds worst speller so I am grateful for spell check when it works. Hows the change of season going for you on the big pond. Last Sunday it was 94 during the day and dipped down to 40 that night. Every one I have talked to seems to have some kind of head cold, no wonder. I am in the middle of restoring some 1920's Art Decco cabinets that came out of a hair salon in Madison. There are 6 of them all with curved ends, glass doors, drawers and many shelves, many many shelves. They are all sitting in the middle of my yet to be finished shop consuming what was left of my free space. I am going to talk to my customer about putting lights and glass shelves in them. As far as I know she is going to use one side of these cabinets for her extensive Pee-Wee Herman Doll collection. Ok Ok Laugh I know I sure did when I saw it. Ill tell you Its kinda cool, not that I am into Pee-Wee or anything but seeing such a large collection is rather interesting to see in one place. Oh by the way this customer is a Art teacher. She teaches grade school with her cat Gladass,she's a hoot. We are also about to start a 3200 sq.ft. addition on her 800 sq.ft. house. The foundation is being worked this week, if all go's well we will be inside before the cold hits. Have a wonderful weekend. Rick.....................................
Hi Rick, welcome back. Summer got extended for a week here, but it's over on Sunday from what they're predicting. I got all my lumber in and up (did you see my Lumber Rack?). You client sounds like a hoot-and-a-half to me! I'll bet those Deco cabinets are to die for (even if they are loaded with Pee Wees, too funny).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
HiYa F_G.
No I did not see your lumber rack. Were do I need to go to see them. I to need to build some kind of rack, my lumber pile is large and growing. I have about 500 Bd. ft. of Hickory to put away but space is limited. And one never knows what I might find next out there in lumber world (grin)...........................Be good. Rick.
OK! Here's the thread on the finished rack:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=7813.1
And here's the thread where I sought advice. Note that some people got carried away (such ideas as gold-plated pipe). Silly dudes!
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=7587.1
One of the responders had built, if memory serves me, 3 of these racks, one of which could be accessed from both sides. Wow!
PS: the plans were from Popular Woodworking "Woodshop Projects" still on the stands, I think. But you don't really need plans. My rack had to be modified to fit our odd wall. If you have any questions, drop me a line.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/14/2002 11:55:51 AM ET by forest_girl
I have been using CMT 24T rip blade for over a year, and I think it's a very good blade. With good fence alignment, the rip cuts are pretty darn good. It also makes a good general purpose blade (cheaper to get sharpened that the 50t).
IMO, CMT makes a good product.
Hi FG
I use a 30 tooth Forrest for most ripping of 4/4 stock. I use a 24 tooth CMT for thicker stuff. The Forrest does a better job on thinner material than the dedicated rip blade. It also does a better job on ripping anything than the Forrest 40 tooth WWII.
I came to check out your forum after you visited ours and found this thread. Hope I'm not out of line with my first post here but i wanted to try to clear the air a bit. Freud produces 3 distinct lines of blades that are designed for and marketed to different groups of users. The Diablo line is sold primarily through lumber yards and Big Box stores and is intended for contractors and serious DIY. The TK line is sold in some of the Big Boxes and in some woodworking stores and is geared for serious casual woodworkers. The LU/LM industrial line is for professional woodworkers, cabinet shops and artisans. To compare a TK blade to a Forrest blade is apples and oranges. If you are interested in a comparison of rip blades for your professional use you should ask for opinions of the LM72 series of Freud blades.
To Chris' point about blade life I have to comment that the number of sharpenings depends primarily on two factors:
1. The thickness of the carbide tips when new
2. How dull the cutter is before sharpening (determines how much carbide must be removed to renew the edge)
HTH
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Charles,
Thank you very much for that explanation. These kind of things always lead to confusion, if not a bit of paranoia. It is not uncommon for people to insist that equipment sold in Big Box stores is an inferior grade of a manufacturer's product, even when no Model number or other difference exists for such products. You clearly indicate the intended differences in your product.
However, while your explanation clears things up a bit, it still leaves a lot of questions because the categories of woodworker that you identify are so subjective. What is the difference between a "serious DIY and a "serious casual woodworker?"
What is the difference between a "serious casual woodworker" and an "artisan"? Is a "professional" better than a "serious casual?" Should I use a TK blade if I am serious but only work at wood once a month and use a Diablo although I cut wood every day but am "only" a DIY?
If I make my living as a professional woodworker, but shop at Home Depot, what are my options?
It would be a lot more helpful if as a manufacturer you could tell us the actual characteristics of the blades so that decisions can be made on that. Is one blade flatter than another? Is the carbide better on one? How? What are the tolerances of the 3 lines? Is runout different? Are the materials different in each one? You could probably list far more characteristics that are pertinent to blade performance and advise us how to make our decisions based on objective criteria.
Why is such information not readily available?
And last, what do you mean regarding comparison of the Freud line to Forrest? Do you mean that only your professional product compares well with the Forrest blades?
Thanks for your help,
Rich
Excellent questions! I'll attempt to answer them all:
All Freud blades come from the same machines in the same manufacturing plant. We make our own micrograin carbide in numerous formulations that represent various degrees of hardness. The carbide is selected depending on the intended application (the hardest is used for laminates the softest for ripping) as are the tooth angles and tooth quantity. The steel for the blade plates is all the same grade. The brazing is all the same. The key differences between the 3 main lines of Freud blades are:
The LU/LM Industrial blades have the thickest tips for the most resharpenings and are generally full kerf. We also offer the most selection of specialty blades in this line. These have the most appeal to professionals who need to get a lot of sharpenings out of a blade and to artisans who need specialty blades for their projects.
The TK and Diablo lines are very similar. Both are thin kerf blades and the tip thickness is the same. The key difference is in the way we market these blades. The Diablo line has blades intended for purposes like framing, siding, decking and general home improvement and is packaged and promoted in ways that appeal to contractors and DIYers. The TK line has blades for similar purposes (as well as laminate blades) but is sold with different or no coating and different packaging and POP material to appeal more to woodworkers.
Do professional woodworkers shop for blades at Home Depot? Probably some do and they can get excellent performance from a Diablo blade for a lot of their uses but with a shorter overall life (and lower cost) due to the tip thickness. Same with the TK blades at Lowe's.
Why not compare a TK or Diablo blade to Forrest? Consider this analogy:
Toyota cars and Lexus cars share a lot of the same components and are made by the same company. Would you compare a Camry with a BMW?
We make a fourth line of blades (F400 Premier series) that is very similar to the WWII and is priced similarly. The difference between ours and Forrest's is that ours is made by computer controlled, super modern equipment and theirs is made by hand. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages but I leave the final verdict to the consumer.
Sorry to be long-winded. I hope I covered all of your questions.
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Charles, far from being long-winded, your answer was IMHO concise and very informative. All of that info was very helpful! Might I press you for just a little more info on the coatings, as you stated the TK line has "different or no coating" -- of course the "no coating" I get :-) What would be the various coatings that are used, and the (working) differences between them? Can a consumer tell by looking at the blade or the packaging that there are different coatings on two different blades?
Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Teflon coating (this is not the same coating that is used on household items - it's a much harder industrial grade) provides several benefits to a saw blade (or cutter). One is the obvious: resistance to pitch for easier cleaning. Another is that the blade runs cooler which adds to the life of the carbide. It also keeps the blade from vibrating in the cut which also adds to the life of the blade and produces a better cut. Lastly, it resists rust. Teflon generally adds 15% to the cost of the tool but that can easily be justified with the added life and easier clean up. Some of the TK series nad LU/LM series blades are available with teflon coating. The Diablo series has PermaShield coating which is an aluminized teflon for extreme durability in job site enviornments.
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Charles: Thanks very much for taking the time to come here to Knots, and explaining all the questons that we have, it is very refreshing in this day and age to have company reps take the extra time to explain this stuff, many just want to sell there products and thats it.. I visit many of the woodworking forums and have seen your posts on workbench, your always a very big help, again many thanks..
Take Care.. ToolDoc
Just a comment. I earn my living out of my shop and use a 24T? TK ripping blade and an LU series 80T crosscutter (and have for about six years). Glass smooth cuts, no burning, and infrequent requirements for sharpening in spite of a fair amount of ply, melamine and MDF. Nice blades, I'll replace them with the same when they wear out.
The carbide teeth are not coated, so how does it keep them cooler?
I'm going to take a wild guess here, we'll see if I'm right. The teeth are attached to the body of the blade, and dissipate heat to the body. If the body's staying cooler (than it would if it were uncoated) then the teeth can dissipate more heat to it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forest Girl: HI , I ran into a pretty good article on saw blades on the Dewalt web site look for woodworking articles at http://www.Dewalt.com
Im busy researching scrollsaws
Happy Woodworking.. ToolDoc
I love my LU85's for my miter saws, but when i tried a Freud rip blade in my Unisaw, it grabbed every so often. I pefer to get my jollies in other ways than anticipating kickback, so i returned it to Tool Crib for a refund. I haven't found the perfect rip blade, so i use a thin-kerf combo blade with a stabiliser flange so i can go directly from the saw to glue-up without turning more of my exotics into expensive dust.
Farest Girl is pretty much on target in that the plate stays cooler and sinks heat away from the teeth. You bring up a good point about the teeth being uncoated in terms of blade cleaning. The teflon only makes the plate easier to clean. If the tips get build-up on them they will still require kerosene (or similar nonreactive cleaner) to clean them.
You bring up a point that periodically gets lots of lines of space--blade cleaning.
What is recommendation for blade cleaning? Is it harmful to use oven cleaner?
I use the teflons with the exception fo a new Freud rip blade. I switch blades frequently and may use 2 or 3 different ones in a day in the shop. At the end of the day I dip the teeth in a bucket of kerosene and brush the pitch off with a stiff nylon brush. Then I brush the teflon blade with a soft nylon brush under warm running water. Dry it throughly and good to go again. By doing it at the end of day, the pitch doesn't really have time to set up and harden.
I have used oven cleaner, but I always have nicks and scratches. Better have on protective gloves. I am curious as to what CM says about harming the carbide or not. Good question, Howie..
sarge..jt
Definitely avoid oven cleaner and other caustics. They attack the cobalt binder in the carbide and can lead to carbide failure (translates to tiny missiles of carbide at 100+ mph). Also, Freud and some other brands of blades have a tri-metal brazing foil that uses copper alloy for a cushioning layer. The copper can also be affected by these cleaners (translates to larger missiles of carbide). We recommend soaking overnight in kerosene in a vented container and using a stiff nylon bristle brush to clean. Teflon coated plates will clean up with a soapy cloth (except for the teeth as mentioned earlier). There are commercial blade cleaning products that are not caustic but we don't officially sanction them. I've personally used Simple Green concentrate with good results.
Charles,
This has been a GREAT thread. Thank you very much for your help. Any opinion on solutions conatining ammonia, Windex, etc?
Rich
I also thank you for the information. I use both yours, and a Forrest; all are good. I use Oxy-Solv for cleaning. Spray on, wait about 1 min., brush with small brass bristle brush. Do you see a problem with this product or method?
We don't officially recommend any commercially available cleaners and I'm not familiar with the product you mentioned. The only thing I can find close is Oxysolve by Eastwood Co. which is a rust treatment product. Is this what you are referring to?
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
As heat is generated on the teeth themselves whilst cutting then supposedly dissipated by the mass of the blade 'plate', please explain if you can the physics/chemistry behind why a Teflon coated blade plate will dissipate heat better than an uncoated blade. Nothing but the teeth should touch the wood (kerf width), therefore friction on the plate itself is zero.
I am tempted to think that an UNCOATED blade would dissipate heat faster, assuming in the first place that the plate acts as a heat sink for the carbide teeth (which I think might be a stretch).
my guess on the teflon body would be they reduce friction on wood when the body contacts the wood itself. Even though the carbie is thicker then the body, dust and whatnot can move heat.
I have literally no knowledge of physics or chemistry. I agree in a perfect world that the wider teeth should not allow the body of the blade to ever touch the wood. Under these conditions I will whole-heartly agree:
Your T/S has absolutely .000 runout..
You always have a perfect set-up on the blade and fence. The distance between the front of the blade and the fence is exactly the same as the rear of the blade and the fence.
A thin steel plate meeting hickory, ash or locust at over 3400 RPM will never, ever deflect even the slightest.
You never, ever feed the stock into the blade at faster a rate than it can handle.
You always have complete control of the stock against the fence you have perfectly square and never allow the slightest movement to the right or left.
You have used a thin kerf blade that has all the inscriptions perfectly readable just as the day you took them out of the package.
Under these circumstances I agree that the wider kerf on a TK will never allow the body of the blade to touch the wood. But just in case all these circumstances could not be met, I think the world is not exactly perfect and the blade will touch. And if it does, industrial grade teflon is considered a lubricant to reduce friction. Less friction = Less heat giving the heat from the teeth a cooler area to seek.
Just my opinion and I most definitely have been wrong b-4. Just something to think about while we get a professionals view..
sarge..jt
Sarge nailed this one so well that I can only add that the teflon also reduces friction from the air. The blade is moving over 100 mph at the rim so there is more resistance (friction) from air than you might think. Imagine a race car with a rough finish racing a car with a polished, waxed finish. All other things being equal, which would win? Resistance=friction=heat.
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Got steered to this forum and thread from someone from The Oak, as it is pertinent to a post I made there. I have a set of red teflon Freud LU 10" TS blades (rip, xcut, combo) I've been using for about a year and a half, and I continually have a problem whereby, if the blade's been on the saw for any time at all, it often slips when I hold it to loosen the arbor nut to change blades (I have a contractor TS, and hold the blade with a wooden block while I loosen the nut). Also, when I finally get the blade off the saw, there's a bunch of red paint/teflon on the arbor flange and washer.
I've never had this problem with my older non-Freud blades, and I don't have it with my dado set (Freud SuperDado).
Have you ever seen this problem with the teflon blades? What caused it?
Don't mean to hijack this thread, but it seemed like a good place to ask this question.
Hi Eric, welcome! I'm the originator of this thread, and am gratified that so much excellent information is being posted to it -- you're welcome to join and not be considered a hijacker by any stretch of the imagination!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks!
I am using the teflon Freud blades I posted about on a Jet contractor TS as well, so the slippage might be something to consider for you, since I believe the Jet contractor TS's have neither arbor lock nor a place to use a second wrench (at least, mine doesn't).
Let me also say, I really like the Freud blades, except for the slippage.
What you are describing is not uncommon when using only one wrench to tighten the blade. The Teflon coating reduces the friction between the arbor flange and the blade. We recommend using two wrenches or a shaft lock. Nearly every saw made either has flats ground on the inboard side of the arbor flange for a second wrench (even though there are few manufacturers that supply the second wrench) or a shaft lock mechanism. Try using the wrench that came with the saw to see if it fits the inboard side of the arbor. If it does you could use it for that (since it likely takes a very thin wrench) and a standard boxed wrench for the arbor nut or contact the saw manufacturer for another wrench. The Teflon that has rubbed off onto the arbor flanges should clean off with a light buffing with scotch-brite pad.
Charles M
Freud, Inc.
Thanks!
Unfortunately, the Jet contractor TS I have has neither an arbor lock nor a place to put a second wrench of which I'm aware.
Is there a good way to remove the teflon coating from those blades in the center portion of the blade that is enclosed by the arbor flanges?
Eric:
Welcome. Read your problem. You might try this as a simple solution to see what happens. Won't cost much to give it a test. Cut four pieces of rough grit sand-paper a little larger that the arbors. Cut a 5/8 hole in the center of all sheets. Place one with the grit facing the in-board arbor washer, then another sheet facing the blade. Replace blade and repeat the process on the out-board side. Replace the out-board arbor washer and the arbor nut and tighten till snug. You probaly have the teflon roughed out around the arbor hole on the blade. If not rough it with another piece of sand-paper.
Shouldn't take but 15 minutes are so. Curious to see if this will help with the blade slippage. Just a though if you wish to try. Good luck. In the mean-time I'll be thinking about plan B as you've got my interest generated. grin<>
Good luck..
sarge..jt
CHARLES MC
I would also like to thank you for taking the time to clarify your product. Your reps are pretty well trained as I have drilled them for the majority of info you gave. I use 4 various teeth TK's as I switch blades for specific uses on a 1 1/2 HP T/S. I use a stiffner on all.
I have used various blades for 30 years now and switched to Freud about 3 years ago. There are several good blades on the market. I appreciate the flexibility Freud gives me in the fact you have various teeth and configurations available in such a wide range at a reasonable price. If I jumped up to a 3 or 5HP saw I would use the LU series as I would prefer the stiffer 1/8" with all that horse.
I like to take my time and get the job done right the first time. For the last 3 years I've gotten the job done with a Freud...Many thanks!
sarge..jt
Charles, thank you so much for taking the time to register here and provide some clarification for us. I will take some time this weekend to look at the LM line of blades.
Hope I have the right idea about the other 2 categories of blades. Are the TK blades, generally, of higher quality than the Diablos? (that's the way I'm reading it, just want to verify with you).
I'm not a professional yet(!) but I decided a long time ago that a good blade was well worth it, so I'm asking around.
Thanks again!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forest girl...or is it Forrest girl? Smile.
I own two Forrest Woodworker IIs, a Forrest Dado set and two Freud blades.
IMHO the Freuds aren't even worth talking about in comparison. New, the Forrests are razor sharp and truly don't require much, if any jointing after cutting. There seems to be plenty of carbide...for sharpening many times (they seem to last about a year before needing sharpening).. and Forrest offers many angle options, etc. My first Freud just didn't cut right from the beginning...seemed dull, required lots of "touch-up" with the jointer. I bought a different Freud blade and it was better than the first....but I'm just not sold....
I can't say enough about these blades. Yes, they're expensive. But, again IMHO, you get what you pay for.
Probably, in the end, your skills are more important than the brand of blade you own...I just like these blades!
Good luck!
lp
I don't know if anyone has mentioned Skarpaz blades, as they don't seem very well known. Nonetheless, they are very heavy duty, industrial quality blades. The carbide teeth are visibly thicker than that found on much of the competition; unlike the Forrest blade, which uses "micrograin carbide," you can have a Skarpaz blade sharpened locally. Moreover, the prices are more in line with Freud than Forrest: Perhaps those full page encomiums to Jim Forrest in every woodworking magazine ever published have bumped the company's overhead. Maybe that's why the blades cost so much. Then again, I'm just a civil servant, so what do I know about selling $110 steel disks?
I came across the Skarpaz blades quite accidentally when I purchased a used table saw. The former owner tossed in three blades, all of them Skarpazes. They seemed quite substantial from the outset and did not disappoint in their performance. One of my (real carpenter) neighbors was quite excited by the blades and mentioned their excellent, if somewhat underground, reputation. I recently sold the saw (last weekend, actually) and threw the blades in as a sweetener, as a little sugar goes a long way with a 50-year-old machine.
While awaiting delivery of my new saw, I find myself considering my blade options. I retained only one blade from my old machine, a Forrest I received as a gift, and did not want to part with for that reason. Because my former saw had a 3/4" arbor, I will need to use a fitting for the old blade on the new saw. Meanwhile, I have done a bit of research on sources for the Skarpaz line.
Here's the manufacturer's homepage, which includes an e-mail address for contacting the company: http://www.skarpaz.com/
And a few on-line dealers, none of which I can vouch for, but one of which will (randomly) receive my business soon: http://www.carbideshop.com/catalogs/skarpaz/skarpazindex.shtml
http://woodplus.com.tw/products/sawblade.htm
http://www.magnate.net/products/sawblade.htm
And, finally, the Magnate catalog, which includes two pages on Skarpaz:
http://www.magnate.net/catalog.htm
Hope some of this is of interest.
Your long winded correspondent,
Jeff
OK Jeff, what do you know about SECO machines? First I've ever heard of them, but they sure make a wide variety of machines. Thanks for the link, interesting.
Don
I know SECO makes a darn good DC . Ive seen their tools look good but never used them and other than the DC I know no one who has used them Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Jeff, wow! thanks! I saved the 4 links and will take a look on Sunday (it's raining on Sunday, no rest for me between now and then). Very cool.
Enjoy your new saw! Color me green :-).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I use Systimatic, Freud, Tenryu and Delta (Leitz) blades in my shop, all turn out good work. My ripping blade is a Freud 24t, non-teflon coated blade and I like it quite a lot. If I remember correctly, I didn't pay alot for this blade, maybe $35?
I have been using this blade quite frequently lately, ripping a lot of hardwoods, and it has held up really well. Nice smooth rips, very little cleanup... sometimes a quick pass with a handplane will do the trick. In my experience, good ripping is more about technique than the blade (assuming you have a good quality rip blade). Feed rate and saw setup will do far more to improve the quality of your ripping than a $100 blade will. In fact, the money you save by going with the freud you could put toward a power feeder.
"good ripping is more about technique than the blade (assuming you have a good quality rip blade" -- Boy, have I demonstrated that!! To wit:
I've had the same combination blade on my saw since day one. Had sort-of-ok results ripping. Was getting some burning, fixed that with fence and splitter adjustments. Then got nervous about kickback. Featherboards a hassle to install, adjust, make. Finally sat down and ordered one of those Grip-Tite magnetic hold-downs. Sticks like SuperGlue to the saw table, holds the wood right where I want it, and made all the difference in my rip-cuts. Super-nice now. Still want a dedicated blade though, 'cause oak and walnut are on the horizon.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Pretty much any decent quality rip blade will work just fine with your Jet saw. The thin kerf blades take less of a bite so they tend to make the saw work less and run cooler. I could never tell how the teflon coating worked since the kerf of the blade is determined by the set and width of the tooth and not the plate of the blade. Maybe it helps, I really can't tell any difference. If you are attempting a glue line rip without having to use your jointer then a 40-50 tooth combo blade has been a good choice for me. I use the Forest WWII for that and I throw on a 24 tooth Jet carbide blade (probably cost about 20 bucks) when I need to rip larger stock.
Pretty much, my rule of thumb, is to rip with a rip blade when I either intend the stock for use in rough carpentry or when I intend to clean up the cut edge with a plane or a jointer. The quality of the cut is not all that important at this rough stage of preparation as long as it is good enough to keep the saw from bogging down and blowing the breaker.
So to answer the question... Yes the Freud is fine and maybe even a little overkill.
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