Replies

1. 
   Hempstalk | May 27, 2002 10:46am | #1

   Hey there forest girl.  That jig sure does look a little strange.  When I first looked at it I wondered how you would start ripping a plank that long with a jig that short.  What would ride against the fence when the cut was started?.  Anyway here's a way to cut thin strips that seems to work well.  Take a scrap of plywood or MDF or whatever's laying around and clamp it to the top of the saw.  Turn the saw on and raise the blade through the scrap to the height needed.  Then take your board and start ripping.  When the board is about 2 1/2" to 3" inches behind the blade stop the saw.  Now take a finishing nail and hammer it into the plywood to hold the thin strip against the fence.  Sacrifice a push stick and use it to push your stock clear of the blade.  The nail will keep the stock against the fence giving a nice clean cut.  Give that a try an see if it works for ya.

1. 
   forestgirl | May 27, 2002 08:18pm | #4

   I can see where this method would be very useful when the original stock is very narrow, but my mission is to rip very narrow pieces off of a 5" (or wider) board. 

   My instinct is to:

   Always have the cut-off piece in a fall-off position, with the larger portion of the stock against the fence

   To use the pusher against the larger portion of the stock, not the cut-off piece

   Mehler has couple of drawings that show the operator pushing the piece through the saw by pushing against the narrow piece, with the larger part of the stock being the fall-off piece.  I can see where the advantage to this method is that if you're cutting several pieces, you don't have to reset the fence each time.  Last night, I did rip these pieces with the skinny part against the fence, but I pushed against the larger part of the stock. 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   SgianDubh | May 27, 2002 08:54pm | #6

   Well f_g, the device you scanned in is similar to a tapering jig, which is a common enough tool for use on the table saw, but I admit the technique shown is one I'd rather not use. But it is a solution that fits in with the long style fences typical in the US, and on US style saws. I don't use this type of saw much myself and usually use one of the European machines with the European style fence. The commonly accepted technique in ripping is to set the fence short, i.e., just long enough to hold the material in place until just after the front downward cutting teeth have finished the cut. The top of the blade is usually set about 12 mm (1/2") above the thickest part of the board. For ripping narrow stuff as you describe we simply flip the fence down to present the narrow edge to hold the timber, and use the same short fence style setting as just described. I'll rip narrow stuff off wide boards all day long using this set up and a push stick and feel more than safe enough. The beauty of this system is that once the cut is made, the narrow piece you are after is not trapped between the fence and the rising teeth of the saw blade at the back where probably 90% of kickbacks come from. The Delta Unifence is patterned on the European style fence to serve as an example.

   All you have to do to emulate a similar concept is to mimic the short rip fence style. Make up a jig or false fence of  two pieces of timber with an L shaped profile. Make one leg of the L to an exact convenient number, say 3" or 70 mm and clamp the other leg of the L to your existing rip fence, and set the false fence short as I described in the first paragraph for the European style fence. You want to rip 3/8" wide strips? Set the fence to 3-3/8". If you want 14 mm wide strips, set the fence to 84 mm--- assuming you used my 3" or 70 mm examples above. I'm also a stickler for using the riving knife and crown guard, set properly, and well thought out push sticks too. The riving knife-- or US splitter--- again, set properly will go a long way to reducing the chance of timber engaging with those all important rising rear teeth. Slainte, RJ.Link to RJFurniture site.

1. 
   forestgirl | May 27, 2002 09:44pm | #7

   Thanks for the reply, Sgian.  I've seen good ol' Norm use his Unifence in this way, and actually have several times clamped a bit of board to my Jet fence to simulate the same.  I'll go the additional steps to make the L-shaped fixture you describe.

   A few questions to follow up your post:

   Does the higher set of the blade (1/2" as opposed to 1/4") help reduce kickback?

   Do you use the push stick against the narrow piece (i.e., push stick positioned on the part of the board that's between the blade and the fence)?

   Do you use a featherboard, which would then need to be re-set each time, or is this not required with this set-up?  If you do use one, where is it set with relationship to the blade?

   I'm thinking about make a tall push-stick out of 1/4" thick wood, so that it will go easily between the fence and the blade, and keep my hand safely way above the blade.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   SgianDubh | May 28, 2002 12:24am | #8

   "1/2" reduce the chance of kickback?"  Not really. It just means that with the European style configuration of sawblade, riving knife, and crown guard, it makes it hard for the operator to pass their hand directly over, or into the blade. On most European saws these parts rise, fall, and tilt as a single unit. It might be said that having the blade low'ish increases the chance of a KB because the teeth doing the cutting have a trajectory closer to parallel with the table. A higher set blade chops in more of a downward manner.

   "Do you use the push stick against the narrow piece?" Yes, but the push stick type I use is of the elongated S pattern with a birds mouth. The push stick is designed in such a way as to be long enough that the operators' hand has no need to pass over the blade-- this applies particularly when ripping with the short rip fence. Once the piece is cut there is no need to keep pushing because it's free of both the fence, and the rising rear teeth of the blade.

   "Do you use a featherboard?" I've never used a featherboard with an European style saw. I don't do any other operations with these machines except dimension materials and cut oddball things such as dihedral angles and the like. There are always plenty of other techniques available to do housings, dado's, grooves, mouldings, etc., none of which involve a table saw. Also bear in mind that being European, I trained there, qualified there, worked for many years there, and taught furniture making there, so my working habits are thoroughly and utterly European. All those operations that still seem strange to me--  even after living in the US for a while---- that most Americans habitually get up to on a saw were not, and are not allowed in commercial workshops in the UK, so they've never been a part of the way I work, and almost certainly never will be. Slainte, RJ.Link to RJFurniture site.

2. 
   forestgirl | May 29, 2002 06:41am | #15

   Sgian, the reason I asked about the 1/2" blade protrusion is because I generally try to keep it to about 1/4"  for safety's sake.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   SgianDubh | May 29, 2002 09:09am | #16

   f_g, there are discussions that raise valid points for setting the blade both high and low. Set low at 1/4" to 1/2" above the timber the argument is that the teeth cut cleaner on the bottom side, the exit of the cut, but that they are buried in the timber for longer, and that they are exerting a force close to horizontal with the table, therefore close to parallel with the timber thickness, and without getting into it, a tendency therefore to be pushing the timber back towards you as you feed it.

   Set the blade high and you have a more downward chopping action, with a tendency to force the material down too, more agressive, less time with the teeth and gullets engaged, which should result in less heat build up and faster emptying of the gullets after engagement, etc.. On the other hand, the rear upward rising teeth, enter and exit just as aggresively as the front downward chopping teeth, should it so happen that the timber pinches at the back, the material might rise, aka, kickback pretty spectacularly.

   There are lots of factors to think of here that revolve around physics, moments about a point, energy, friction, inertia, horse power, heat build up, tooth configuration and their fitness to the purpose,  and plate distortion, and so on. Frankly, I don't know all the answers, but sometimes I set the blade fairly high, and sometimes I set it fairly low. Mostly I set it on the low side. I've always like my riving knife and crown guard though. Once or twice in pant wetting moments I've had the timber pinched as tight as a ducks arse on the riving knife, and jammed tight right up against the underside of the  crown guard--- just enough time to hit the off switch with my knee, or for the drive belt to break, or both. I don't fancy going through those experiences any more than I have to. It's a bit like bungee jumping, where moments after you jump, you're not sure if you attached yourself to the bungee cord, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.Link to RJFurniture site.

4. 
   forestgirl | May 29, 2002 07:49pm | #17

   Hi Sgian.  The specter of kickback and binding as you and others describe has made me seriously interested in the Biesemeyer splitter that's made for my contractor's saw among others.  It won't be the total answer, but at least it's a step in the right direction!  The details you provided about factors related to different blade heights were generally what I suspected.  I tend to set it pretty low unless I'm ripping something 1"+ thick and want to give the motor a little help.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Hempstalk | May 28, 2002 02:48am | #9

   Forest girl.  Perhaps my explanation wasn't clear.  This type of set up doesn't limit the width of the original stock.  The board could be 20" wide if need be.  The thing is you will have to push the thin strip with your push stick not the cut off or the piece in the fall off position as you put it to prevent the strip from kicking back.  This type of set up works well when you need many thin strips at the same dimension for a thin strip lamination.   The addition of the plywood on the saw also gives you zero clearance around the blade.  The finishing nail can also have a larger head which when set at the proper height will help keep the stock on the table.

1. 
   forestgirl | May 28, 2002 03:26am | #10

   Hi again!  Sorry.  I wasn't thinking this method limited the size of the stock, it just seemed like it was designed  for some  kind of special situation, and I was guessing that was it.  Just to be sure I'm understanding, when you put the nail in, it is adjacent to the thin piece, right?  In other words, basically where the kerf space is. 

   Also, is there really a need to "sacrifice" a push stick?  Can it not be made to adapt to this situation, and survive the experience?  :)

   I will definitely keep this method in mind when the desired off-cut is to be very thin.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   sschefer | May 28, 2002 04:28am | #11

   Jamie, all the jig is, is an offset push stick. I use one like this all the time. Don't be afraid of it. These work great but you do need to stop the saw between cuts or reach over the blade to clear the cutoff. The advantage is that you don't have to move the fence for every cut. Don't use a feather board or a push stick with this jig and always stand to the right of the blade.

   Oh yeah, make sure the garage door is shut or warn you neighbors not to walk in the path of flying arrows because if one of the cutoffs catches it will launch straight back.Steve - in Northern California

3. 
   Hempstalk | May 28, 2002 08:22pm | #14

   "I can see where this method would be very useful when the original stock is very narrow, but my mission is to rip very narrow pieces off of a 5" (or wider) board."  This is what kind of threw me off.  No worries.  Your right about the placement of the nail.  Also if you use this jig often and the strip thickness is different every time your simply pull the nail, rip a strip off the edge, clamp the board back down and repeat the procedure of the setup.  The reason I say sacrifice a push stick is because I make about a dozen to twenty at a time.  Perhaps I'm to lazy to make a special one each time.  I just despose of them after the get too cut up.  My only concern about having really thin push sticks like a 1/4" would be the unstableness.  The tendency is to try to make them high to get your hands away from the blade.  The combination of being thin and high causes them to tip side to side.  This isn't a big deal if your aware of it and use caution but if someone else who isn't familiar with them uses it they risk possible injury.  This is from experience.  I had a thinner push stick with a notch at the end for material 1/2" or thicker.  My helper was using it to push 1/4" thick material through the saw.  Since only the tip and a small portion of the heel were making contact it was tippy.  He applied to much pressure to one side (towards the blade) and the push stick tipped.  The end result was a 1/8" saw kerf out of his thumb.  Luckily he had the blade height properly adjusted, which spared him losing his entire thumb or more.  I now try to avoid even having thin push sticks around.  I cant always keep an eye on everyone.  Just a word of warning. 

2. 
   tom_gattiker | May 27, 2002 05:18pm | #2

   I could never figure out how that jig was supposed to work either!!!  The table saw book is a great book, but there are a lot of issues I would llike to see addressed more thoroughly. 

1. 
   PlaneWood | May 27, 2002 07:25pm | #3

   Forest Girl -

   I would use my BS for that purpose.  But, if you don't have one, then use a splitter behind the TS blade and a finger board clamped to your guide to prevent kickback.  The push stick can be a 1/2" thick scrap board say about 18" long and 6" wide and let the blade cut the kerf on the 1st push.  Push the sawn off strips till they clear the blade and fall off the table.  Mount a tall handle on the push board directly behind where the kerf will be. 

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

1. 
   forestgirl | May 27, 2002 08:34pm | #5

   Sounds like if I would like to save time by having the narrow part between the blade and the fence, pushing against this part may be the most likely way to prevent kickback.

   Mike, which part of your pusher is against the table?  I'm having a little trouble envisioning it.

   I have a bandsaw, but I think the tablesaw is going to give me better results for this.  Since in the future I'd be ripping molding pieces frequenty, really want to get a reliable and efficient procedure for this.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 5/27/2002 1:36:33 PM ET by forest_girl

3. 
   patternmaker | May 28, 2002 04:52am | #12

   I am no longer in the rat race,however,I have need for thin strips on the order of .050 thick by .75 to 2.00 wide.I use these strips to make curved or contoured laminations. In the interest of safety and economy of material,I do the ripping on the band saw,followed by two trips thru the drum sander.Before I had the thickness sander,I used a setup on the drill press using a standard 2.00" dia rubber drum and fed the stock by hand. FWIW ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/28/2002 5:40:16 AM ET by Pat

1. 
   Biscardi | May 28, 2002 05:07am | #13

   I just had a spectacular kickback while ripping  off a three inch part of a 1/4  thick piece of walnut. I had the blade low, used a pushsick, featherboard, guard, splitter, pawls etc... The piece slapped my shirt as it went by to explode a nanosecond latter against the cementblock wall.

   Time to close down the shop and have a cold one.

   It was stupid to try to cut things so small on a tablesaw. It would have been easier and almost as fast to rip it with a handsaw and clean it up with a block plane.

   If you have to dance around the maypole to do a job with a particular tool, you have the wrong tool.

   Frank