I am in need of a riving knife or similar setup for a Delta 36-430 Contractor saw. Contact w/Delta does not manufacture the item, and expressed no interest in pursuing same. Any help would be kindly appreciated.
Bill/Arkansas
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Bill,
It is unlikely you can fit a riving knife to your saw short of re-engineering the entire trunion and arbor assembly. The typical design of contractor's saws available in North America is deficient in this regard. It would be easy for the saw to be built with a proper riving knife assembly, but it just isn't done.
This topic has been discussed many times here. "High end" table saws with riving knives are just beginning to appear for this market. Is is doubtful that a contractor's saw will appear with one any time soon. Sad.
Rich
Rich, thank a million for the response...it has been a brick wall so far, and your message confirms what I had suspected.
Bill/Sunbelt
Actually, the new Sawstop contractor saw is supposed to have one.TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
Yes, the SawStop contractor model has one. I've seen it at shows. But still, even though I love the idea of a riving knife, the cost of the SawStop is prohibitive. I wish someone other than SawStop would develop a contractor saw with a riving knife.Some of the new saws were my brightest hopes. The new line of Craftsman saws could have done it, or the new line of tools by Steel City could have done it. But they didn't. Oh well...Again, it's interesting that one can buy benchtop saws with riving knives, but contractor saws and cabinet saws, including new models, don't offer this.
Edited 9/29/2006 2:33 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
I wish someone other than SawStop would develop a contractor saw with a riving knife.
Powermatic, Laguna, and your friends at Grizzly have saws with riving knives. However they are not much less financially prohibitive than the Sawstop. The Grizzly is also a 12" saw.
The forums here aften talk aboutthe ethics of companies, yet no one has really stopped to question the ethics of saw companies not adding riving knives to their saw. Compared to what is on the saws now, many injuries could be prevented.
As for the benchtop saws, I think it's a matter of origins...
Yes, you're right of course, the new Powermatic saws have riving knives. I also agree with you on the ethics question. I've been talking about this for years, here and elsewhere.What people like me want to see is a moderately priced saw with a riving knife. The old Ryobi BT3100 had a riving knife. I bought that saw, but returned it to Home Depot. Besides the riving knife, I didn't like the Ryobi. So having a riving knife is not everything!
It's not so much as a matter of ethics as just economics and lazy thinking. Why improve a product and spend some money as long as it's making money. Meanwhile someone else IS making a better product and then suddenly the lazy thinkers are screaming unfair competition (??) when they lose market share. Think GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.All the comments about being unable to make a riving knife with the common swinging arbors are simply wrong. Some minor modifications to the arbor casting and just a few dollars (mayby $5) later, you can have a riving knife. As for "requiring" a vertical sliding arbor, that was a design decison made for probably other reasons.That said, I am working on the details of a design to retrofit a riving knife to my 1970's era Craftsman contractor saw. I'm probably trying to make the proverbial silk purse from a sow's ear but I want to just for the heck of it, and to poke a stick in the eye of the lazy thinkers.
Bill,
As already stated, none of the contractor's saws have the necessary mounting points for a riving knife and there is no practical way to modify the saw.
If you are willing to invest in a new saw, at least a few of the benchtop saws are set up for riving knives although it isn't obvious since they sell the saws with conventional looking "American" style guards and splitters.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John,
Interesting. Do you happen to know which benchtop saws will take a riving knife, and wether any are available for retrofit?
Bob Milton
The Ryobi BT3100 has a riving knife. The guard and pauls that come with it are a PITA, however; Lee Styron's Sharkguard is a popular add-on.
As stated, the BT3000 and BT3100 which have been dis-continued recently. As dwolsten stated, the stock guard on them with those nasty pawls are near useless as most stock guards, IMO...
But with a little creativy, the battle is not lost and can be won...
Regards...
SARGE..
Thanks, I didn't realize there were any riving knives other than the big cabinet saws.
Bob
Bob,
I was afraid you were going to ask me that. I haven't looked at the saws in a couple of years and I don't recall which saws were adaptable.
Probably about half of the benchtop machines are set up so that the splitter assembly moves up and down with the arbor when you change the blade height, which is what is needed to install a riving knife. If you can get to a store where the machines are set up, a few minutes spent raising and lowering the blades will tell you which saws have the proper design.
None of the bench top saws come with a true riving knife but it isn't hard to make one fom a small piece of steel or aluminum, or you can cut down the bulkier splitter that comes with the saw.
John W.
I had a late model Grizzly contractor's saw that I gave away a little over a year ago. It would have taken a bit of doing, but a machinist could have adapted a riving knife to the casting behind the arbor.
Rich
John,
Thanks for the info. I'll take a look when I get a chance.
Bob
Bill, you can get round it in a clumsy but effective fashion. Years back I had a simple table saw and overlaid the table with a sheet of paxolin, glued down by contact adhesive, and wound up the blade for zero clearance, then cut a slot for a splitter made from the same material and (plastic) welded in place. The saw had a short fence which did not extend beyond the blade, I know your long fences are standard but feel they are none productive and dangerous. How is anyone supposed to keep stock hard up to the fence after it has passed the saw blade?
Hope the principle helps.
"...overlaid the table with a sheet of paxolin, glued down by contact adhesive, and wound up the blade for zero clearance, then cut a slot for a splitter made from the same material and (plastic) welded in place." Mufty, I'm curious what made you opt for the overlay, rather than simply gluing a splitter into the throat insert.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Best way to be fg. The saw had a pressed steel top, too thin I thought to glue a splitter into. The overlay gave me the chance to do finer work, or by easing it off the table, to do the bigger and rougher jobs people usually wanted done. I changed the blade then. This is a good few years ago.
Lee Styron in AL makes a riving knife / guard for "The Delta Unisaw/Contractor Shark Guard 8.0" (page at http://www.leestyron.com/sharkunisaw.php ).
He makes the knife so the guard can be easily removed without touching the knife, for those cuts where a guard cannot be used .
I think he started making them to improve on the one in the Ryobi BT3000 and then expanded to cover other saws. He also includes a full description of exactly how he makes them and what materials he uses. They are virtually works of art and I've never read a bad review (dozens of peoople in the BT3Central forum use them). I've also seen one, and I think it's GREAT.
He also describes his home-made dust collector, including making his own impeller!
And you have nailed it GDH2. I started posting over on the BT3 Central site several months ago and had a conversation on-line with Lee 2 days ago. Nice guy and does some quality work with those knives as he hand cuts each from a blank and all else that goes into the set-up is hand-made. Ya even get a "shark" decal. ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Looking at the Lee Styron page it would appear that his unit is still an American style splitter, in that it is only close to the blade when the blade is at full height. If that is the case, then it still lacks the primary advantage of a true riving knife which shields the back of the blade at all blade heights.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
And you are correct John. Lee's guard is not a true riving knife that moves with the blade at the same clearance on the Uni-saw. He supplies 3 size splitters on that version to adjust for the height. IMO, an improvement over the stock guard on that saw.
But as you stated before, you aren't going to put a riving knife on an American contractor or cabinet saw that wasn't designed from the get-go to accept one without mechanically re-designing the guts and a lot of fabrication from the machine shop. That's pretty much the bottom line for those that don't quite understand "what-where-why" to have riving knife capability.
Regards...
SARGE..
I'm impressed by his work around, he's a good designer. Thanks for the information.
John W.
JohnWW,
Yes, the Bosch and DeWalt benchtop saws have riving knife mechanisms. The Ridgid does not have it. I happen to own the Ridgid and love it, but the riving knife is what made me almost buy the Bosch.
My question is, why do benchtop saws have riving knives, but contractor saws and cabinet saws do not?
Matt, thanks for the response. I am now looking into the new SawStop contractor's saw, which does incorporate a riving knife according to their distributor.
Sunbelt,I've seen the SawStop at several woodworking shows, and I have been very impressed by the machine's fit and finish. When I run a table saw, I always use the guard. So for me, in many ways the riving knife on the SawStop machines was more attractive than the SawStop mechanism. However, I cannot afford the price tag of these machines, even though they have a much-desired riving knife.
Edited 9/25/2006 1:42 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Matt, you're reply is well noted....I would like to use the supplied Delta guard, but it is just too flimsy and I have to "mess" with it constantly to keep from goofing up a cut, and to try to keep it correctly positioned. In fact, I consider it a greater safety hazard than no guard. Bottom line...I feel safer without the Delta guard than with it.
My other alternative is to attempt to locate another Unisaw, or Powermatic 66 and just surplus the Delta contractor saw. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!!
Matthew,
The classic contractor's saw and cabinet saws made in the "American" style are designs that go back half a century. They weren't designed to accommodate a riving knife and the basic design, using a swinging arbor, can't be modified to accept a riving knife, the saw would have to be completely redesigned, which none of the manufacturers saw fit to invest in doing.
The benchtop machines are of much more recent vintage, and at least some were designed in Europe or Japan, or were going to be sold in those markets, and so they were made with a mounting point for a riving knife.
John W.
So glad you feel gooder! <g> Too funny.
Just to highlight the unstated, riving knives seem to come combined with a quick-release feature, which is what makes them the most attractive, IMHO. The biggest problem with US-type splitters is the fact that they are such a pain in the backside to remove and replace, when need be. So, they end up on a shelf somewhere, doing nobody any good whatsoever.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"riving knives seem to come combined with a quick-release feature" Some do fg, and some don't.
In my experience most riving knives are attached via studs that pass through slots in the plate of the knife. (The slots are there so that the riving knife can accommodate different diameter blades, e.g., 12" to 16".) Nuts wind on to the studs to lock the knife onto the arm. With many riving knives there is a plate or block that sits just under the nuts with holes matching the position of the studs so that the riving knife is locked in place firmly.
Many riving knives have small grub screws fitted into the arm that carries the riving knife that are adjustable with allen keys to align the knife with the the saw blade.
All in all this arrangement makes a riving knife something other than 'quick release.' Once a knife is set up and aligned, it can be removed easily enough and replaced. But to save losing the parts that lock the knife on they really need to be screwed tight on to the arm. All this takes time.
The thing I find most curious is why anyone would contemplate spending the extra money to get the additional safety that a riving knife and crown guard configuration offers and then want to remove it? This negates all the benefits that a riving knife offers. If you're going to go the riving knife route you should probably be thinking of going the whole hog and abandoning the US style long rip fence and adopting the short rip fence style that provides additional safety for rip cuts. The short rip fence, although adjustable fore and aft, is not ideal for buried saw blade cuts. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Too illustrate a few points you made, I shot a few pictures this morning.
The first shows that once a rip cut is complete (just before the center of blade) how the short fence cannot interfere with the stock spreading, hitting the fence and back into the rear teeth.
The second is to show that the height of a riving knife is not always just below the tallest height of the blade.
The third is how they can attach with bolts for sturdiness and and there may be no magic button to release instantly.
Hope that helps......
All....
And I agree with Metod as I would like to buy American and don't discount Pacific Rim machinery. I take every machine and feature on a case by case analysis of what makes the most sense and make a decision after I compare what is available for the dollar amount.
I do not clamour for European because it is European. I clamour for what is the best design and quality in a price range I can afford. If that is American, I prefer to shell out bucks in the U.S.A. before buying off-shore.
So.... listen up American machinery designers! If you give me the opportunity to buy American with what makes the best sense to me at a reasonable price, I will buy American!
I am tired of having to either go off-shore or make my own in the machine shop so I get what does make sense to me. And a riving knife, crown guard and short fence makes sense to me. I have used all for four years (made my own crown guard and short fence) and I won't back-step to pad the pocket of those manufacturers that see the writing clearly on the wall and continue to ignore sensible design changes to keep profits up and keep share-holders smiling.
Make me want to buy American and you got my business!
SARGE..
From this side the great thing about American anything was it's overengineering. It was not going to break! This covered a Ford V8 Pilot in the 50tys which did 20mpgallon whether you drove at 20 or 60, to our present washing machine which I maintain has been made from recycled NASA spares. The only downside is that I said was. I value the USA tools I own but the mainstream makers seem to have lost the plot. So do we. German tools are still OK and Belgium survives, but quality is costly.
On the aspect of farming work abroad, I do not understand the logic. If currency is spent in the country of manufacture then those funds continue to circulate and generate revenue- which is taxed at various stages. If on the other hand a manufacturer subcontracts work overseas then the payments for that work, however much less costly than costs at home, are lost to the local economies and to the local businesses. Quality control is at arms length and the language and standards of expectation often change.
I have always been a bit simple.
"The thing I find most curious is why anyone would contemplate spending the extra money to get the additional safety that a riving knife and crown guard configuration offers and then want to remove it? " Since, as you said earlier, they aren't all compatible with non-through cuts, they might occasionally need to be removed. Or did I dream you said that?? Wouldn't be the first time. <g>
Perhaps I should have said "...in the USA" when talking about quick-release. The new Powermatic and the Saw Stop are both quick-release. Is there a Grizzly too? Don't remember. But I suspect the US manufacturers are aware that we're clamoring for quick-release.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
fg, the only reason I remove a riving knife (and crown guard if it's attached to the knife) might be to change a blade. Even then I only remove it if I'm going from a smaller blade to a larger blade.
I just don't do cuts where the blade is buried in the wood, and I don't use a dado blade either. Neither technique is part of mainstream British industrial woodworking. It's a regulation thing.
I certainly did say that you'd need to remove the riving knife to do non-through cuts, but it depends on the riving knife configuration. All that kind of woodworking is completely alien to me. What I was getting at is that it seems curious to me that if American users want European style safety devices on their saws, then why not adopt European style woodworking practices to go with it, e.g., dump the non-through cut thing, use a short rip fence, and do those buried sawblade operations a different way.
It seems to me to be a bit difficult to buy into only half a philosophy, but that's just my opinion. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 9/30/2006 1:47 pm by SgianDubh
>It seems to me to be a bit difficult to buy into only half a philosophy, but that's just my opinion. Slainte.<
Are you sure that people are interested in buying into that philosophy? There are something like 10 to 15 million hobbiest woodworkers in the USA (most of the potential market for FWW, by the way), and most of them tablesaw owners. Are they buying into your British Industrial Woodworking philosophy? Doubtful. I know I'm not. I like the philosophy promulgated by Tolpin's Tablesaw Magic. The tablesaw is the centerpiece of my shop - I want to be able to cut off lids on boxes, cut dados, cut raised panels, cut coves, make all sorts of useful jigs - I don't want the British Industrial Woodworking philosophy. Actually, few things sound more dull, hide-bound and over-regulated. I say, "Free the tablesaurus from that!"
This year, I will purchase the Sawstop machine. It will be the fourth tablesaw I've purchased in my lifetime. Whoop-te-do! Glory halelujah and God Bless George Washington! It comes with a frickin' riving knife! I guess after all these years I will finally be safe.
One question I'm curious about. Background: My tablesaw is set up and tuned as well as it can be done (imho). There is an eight foot outfeed table on the backside of the tablesaur. I always have the blade guard, splitter and anti-kickback pawls on it and, unlike many people, I like the design of that stuff on my saw because it removes in less than 30 seconds and reattaches in less than 30 seconds. The blade guard is basically a big, ostentatious reminder of where the blade is and the anti-kickback pawls remind you not to pull the stock backward once you start cutting it. The splitter, as you know, performs a mission similar to the sweeter-than-the-Holy-Grail riving knife. Now to the point: If me and a helper set the fence to 24 inches (the cursor for the fence on this saw is accurate to the blade I've got on it, and the fence is adjusted parallel to the blade), pick up an 8' by 4' plywood panel, rip it right down its 8 foot length into two 2' x 8' sections, explain to me how the short fence helps me with that or makes me safer,....To me it would just: a) feel weird, b) not be as accurate - more of a potential pivot point, and c) it is dubious to me that it would make me safer. Thanks. Ed
Ed,You've already indicated that your mind is closed, so I assume your question seeking enlightenment is simply provocative and a intro to further argue your case that since you and millions of red-blooded Americuns have been using the kind of table saws commonly available on the North American continent for most of the 20th century and the first 6 years of the 21st, that such equipment is good.This thread has been one of the best describing the problems of the poor design we have bought into all these years. What have you not understood? There is no way to remove the human part of the equation. Problems happen on the best equipment when people get tired or inattentive or bored or just plain stupid. But to a degree that you want to keep your blinders on about, European table saws are engineered far better than the old designs we use here.I have been using power equipment since my father first let me use his old jigsaw before I was 5 and that was just before the halfway mark of the last century. So I have as much or more experience with woodworking tools as you.I am firmly in favor of the laws, rules, and standards of practice in places like England, Australia, New Zealand and any other place that prohibits dado blades, mandates riving knives and crown guards. I don't think such laws go far enough. I don't think a worker's hands should be anywhere near the spinning blade or the workpiece as it's going through the machine. I have expressed my opinion about ripping methods that don't use the TS. And I think that ripping on a non-sliding-table table saw should be accomplished with power feeders (see the current thread here about power feeders and shapers).Your attitude is one of the best examples of old ways dying hard, no matter how problematic they are.Rich
re:"This thread has been one of the best describing the problems of the poor design we have bought into all these years"Sorry, I was referring to the "Kickback 101" thread in General Discussion.Rich
Rich, we can buy dado blades here. They'll fit on radial arm saws. They'll also fit on table saws if the arbor is long enough. We can in theory use them on table saws if we can set up guards that will adequately protect users against injury. To get approval for set ups that require removal of the riving knife and crown guard requires a significant amount of work liaising with the Health and Safety Executive (HSE.)
I think, without checking the regulations intimately, that the law states that all table saw operations must normally be done with the riving knife and crown guard in place. As mentioned above you can get a special dispensation to use saws for specific operations (e.g., non-through cuts) without these guards if suitable alternative guarding replaces it, and it is approved by HSE.
The situation seems to be that the manufacturers responded to this challenge in an interesting way. Dado blades, as we all know, are seldom guarded and there were lots of amputations, etc., because of their use in the UK.
Saw makers I guess said, "Ah, it's the dado blade the government is most bothered about because of the large number of maimed woodworkers." So to avoid the possibility of a lawsuit they made saws that were, and are, unable to accept a dado blade. This I think has been the case for five or six decades now.
Long arbored table saws just don't exist in the contemporary commercial or mainstream British market, although I do know some people import Delta Unisaws type machines for what seems to be primarily the amateur Norm watching market. Amateurs can pretty much do what they want if they're determined enough-- hence the small market for US style saws.
Although arbors are intentionally made too short for a dao blade, there seem to be one or two saw makers with machines that will take a quite narrow dado like blade-- about 5/16" or 3/8" wide. I'm not sure how these saw makers deal with the exposed blade issue. They perhaps have special guarding supplied with the machine-- I just don't know. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 10/1/2006 2:54 pm by SgianDubh
Richard,
Thanks for posting that information. The paucity of "long-arbored" table saws in England, Europe and elsewhere is not usually appreciated in the U.S. It's been interesting to see manufacturers such as Felder and Hammer advertising their U.S.-bound equipment to have dado-length arbors. Actually, a sliding table may adequately eliminate the danger of a dado, I dunno.
I am probably in a small minority of people who thinks that woodworking equipment is as dangerous as I keep insisting. Frankly, I think, compared to the way stock is handled in other fabrication industries, we are crazy for the risks we take in the name of expediency and "traditional working methods."
The thought of a dado blade on a radial arm saw is simply ghastly, terrifying.
Rich
"The thought of a dado blade on a radial arm saw is simply ghastly, terrifying."Sorry to disagree. Before I got a table saw, I did every kind of cut on my radial arm, including dado cuts (wobble blade before I purchased a stack), and there is nothing ghastly or terrifying about it. We can all argue about the relative merits of the riving knife, splitter, short fence, long fence etc. until the cows come home. The bottom line is, if you're comfortable and confident with the equipment you work with, and you've been using it without injury for years, then you're probably doing things right.
Well Mike,I'll just rephrase your words."The bottom line is, if you're comfortable and confident with inherently dangerous equipment, used in one of the most dangerous of its configurations, all the years of injury-free use don't matter one iota when (I didn't say if) you, or someone else, get injured."The forces involved when a full-kerf blade is pulled across the work are significant enough regarding lifting the work piece, riding up over the work, etc. Those forces are magnified by a dado blade.Maybe you are extremely careful. How much instruction does the average "hobby worker" receive who simply buys a blade set and starts using it? What happens when he takes a 1/2" wide cut 5/8" deep into a piece of hardwood?The fact that you have not yet been injured doesn't change a thing. The tool is inherently dangerous and is commonly used in a dangerous way. Compared to the "rules" imposed on other industrial machinery, woodworking machinery is turned loose in almost irresponsible disregard for the potential danger. The human operator has absolutely no business controlling the movement of the RAS carriage, holding the work, or standing anywhere near the attack of the blade in the wood. I don't care how long it's been common practice.The RAS was developed during a period of industrial design that had absolutely no concern or understanding of human injury.Have you ever seen a punch press? A paper cutter in a printing house? A milling machine? Or any number of other equipment in industry.The work is locked in place. The operators hands, BOTH of them, must be on widely separated activating buttons, which start the machine-controlled movement of the "cutter." If the operator needs to control the cutter, it is by control handles or other mechanisms which keep his body completely isolated from the work.Sure, you're going to tell me that my ideas are massive over-reaction, that woodworking machines have been used for more than a century in their current design. Yup, you're right about the second part.I think if most power woodworking equipment didn't exist before, and were to be released on the market today, allowing the human operator to get anywhere near the blade mechanism during cutting, or to manually hold the work while the blade(s) did their job would not be a part of the tool's normal operation.The single commonly used shop tool that comes anywhere near an intelligent design in all these concerns is the power planer.Rich
<"The forces involved when a full-kerf blade is pulled across the work are significant enough regarding lifting the work piece, riding up over the work, etc. Those forces are magnified by a dado blade."><"Maybe you are extremely careful. How much instruction does the average "hobby worker" receive who simply buys a blade set and starts using it? What happens when he takes a 1/2" wide cut 5/8" deep into a piece of hardwood?">Here's a thought: hold the stock down firmly with your left hand and control the saw with your right hand -- and maybe understand how the type of wood you're cutting and the depth of the cut dictate how many passes it will take to complete the operation.If you are going to use any kind of power equipment, it is your responsibility to understand how it works, the risk involved, potential problems and how to use it safely -- and that can be done. But you're right, I'm going to sell all my tools and build everything from kits in the future -- nothing to worry about except sanding and glue up.
Be careful around those glue-up clamps. Especially the power take-up versions.
Rich,
Surely you have forgotten that it is the right of every red-blooded inhabitant of The Greatest Nation On Earth to not only cut off his own fingers but also to insist that others take the risk of doing so. (It will make men of them - well men minus a couple of percent).
I just hope one of the more Rampant Individualists don't come at me with one of their many weapons (which they may also acquire and use in an unrestricted fashion) for saying so. After all, I may be one o' them commies, supporting laws to protect the vulnerable from the more uncaring aspects of free enterprise.
Meanwhile I thank Nanny for keeping Bad Things from getting in my shed.
Lataxe, an intact citizen of Europe.
Lataxe,
I'm as red-blooded an Americun as they come. I'm as hard-headed as anyone. I had a RAS for a number of years that I used as wisely as I knew how (a 1970-style Craftsman 9" model that I bought new for $99 US then). I got in trouble a few times (both ripping -shudder - and cross cutting) and I'm lucky I never got hurt.
I have all my parts and I intend to stay that way (except for a few of the internal ones that seem to be leaving me, via my doctor's advice as time goes on).
As I look back, I think I was fortunate not to have had the desire to use a dado set on the RAS. I didn't know better back then, just as I didn't know better than to rip on the thing. I just didn't have the opportunity.
When I think of a dado set on a RAS, I am, shall we say, less than comfortable. All that toothed steel and carbide, spinning up there almost at face height, sans blade guard, chewing through the stock, chips flying everywhere, operator bent over the machine, close to the work, holding the stock down on the table. Ugh!
Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should.
Several abysmally easy mechanical changes to the RAS could make it a far safer tool.
1. A hold down to secure the stock. A quick-acting, positive toggle clamping system integrated into the bed, easily accesable from the front of the table. Child's play to design and manufacture.
2. Fit the motor carriage with 2 "dead-man's" handles for the operator's hands. Each with a squeeze handle that releases friction brakes on either side of the arm, only as long as the operator squeezes both of them. Get the operator's hands, both of them, up on those handles and keep them there for the duration of the cut. Power switches on both handles, both of which must be continuously pressed to keep power to the motor. Easy to design and manufacture.
3. A motor brake on power off. I have seen 12 and 15 inch RAS take over 3 minutes to coast to a stop. That blade should stop within milliseconds of power off. Simple wiring/switching arrangement in the switchbox.
Sure, any of the devices could be disabled by a "cowboy." But teaching their use could improve that climate.
Rich,
<"When I think of a dado set on a RAS, I am, shall we say, less than comfortable. ...">So, you probably don't want to hear any my moulding head on the RAS stories then.
Oh, c'mon Mike,
Entertain us. Everyone likes ghastly stories.
Rich
<"Entertain us. Everyone likes ghastly stories.">Actually, we probably agree on this one. The only time I've ever been scared, and quite close to being in real trouble using the RAS was while putting a profile on a white oak cabinet door with the moulding head many years ago. Just firing the saw up with that accessory installed increases the pucker factor ten fold. I'm one of the relatively few who like using the radial arm, but I don't think it's the all-in-one tool it has been marketed as over the years. For a long time it was all I had and I used it for everything, but it's not right for most operations. Mine is now set for straight cuts at 90 degrees and that's it. It's a dead accurate one trick pony that I can use quite safely.
Mike,
My RAS would never retain it's accuracy if I unlocked it from its 90 degree position for any other angle cut. Resetting to 90 degrees was always a time-consuming drudge. But if I left it locked, it was dead accurate.
After I got rid of it I realized I should have kept it for crosscutting, locked at 90. I could have made a 45 degree holder for that angle. I didn't realize how useful that all would have been until after I built my first really good crosscut sled for the TS.
I contemplated getting another RAS just for crosscutting, but stuck with the TS.
I also looked at my RAS as an all-in-one tool which it most certainly was not. I tried to use a "planer" head on it (I think they are available for drill presses). That was a disaster as I could never really get the head parallel to the table.
I also used it as a horizontal boring machine by putting a chuck on the back end of the arbor and all kinds of bits from end mills to drill bits to routers. It was a very satisfactory and "calm" piece of equipment in that mode. The X, Y, Z axes are built-in, ready to be used. I think the arbor had more runout than would be tolerated from any drill press today!
<"My RAS would never retain it's accuracy if I unlocked it from its 90 degree position for any other angle cut. Resetting to 90 degrees was always a time-consuming drudge. But if I left it locked, it was dead accurate.">I believe you said your saw was a Craftsman. I have an early 80s vintage Sears and it suffers from the same affliction. But set to 90 degrees, she's a champ and I'm so attached, I'll be buried with it. If she takes a finger before I die, I'll save it and have it chucked in the coffin with us.I'm attaching a PDF (hope it's not too big -- won't res down any further) of a 1961 DeWalt RAS brochure which demonstrates the all-in-one marketing approach so many manufacturers have taken. So many functions in one tool -- come on, you know you want another one.My brother had this exact saw, and my wife made me swear I wouldn't take it when I cleaned out his shop after he died -- but it's in my garage as I write. You just can't have too many radial arms.
WOW!!!!Did you see the picture on page 2 with dad using the saw and mom and son staring at the piece being cut with their faces about 10" away? Man, times sure have changed!
"Did you see the picture on page 2 with dad using the saw and mom and son staring at the piece being cut"Isn't that great? Dad builds a bird house and little Bobby takes one in the eye.
Ed, by the acerbic nature of your comments, it would appear that you're laying responsibility for the "give us a riving knife" clamor at Richard's doorstep. He only joined in this fray recently, and primarily (IIRC) because some overstatements were made ("myths" were started) about its magical properties -- to bring us back down to earth, as it were, and squash the myth in its infancy.
That being said, I tend to agree with you that while many of us would like to see riving knives (with quick release) as standard equipment on American saws, we aren't giving much thought at all to any overall philosophy.
"The blade guard is basically a big, ostentatious reminder of where the blade is." How will you ever get used to the SawStop, with it's thin little hand-in-glove arrangement (saw-in-shroud)? ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
>How will you ever get used to the SawStop, with it's thin little hand-in-glove arrangement (saw-in-shroud)? ROFL!<
I'll figure it out! This is an issue that I refuse to get too ramped up about - it's just too silly in the first place. I probably should've simply kept my opinions to myself and let it go - let the people who want to have nothing less than the European model knock themselves out,...buy a bandsaw big enough to do a 24 inch rip and be an accurate cabinet-making machine,....go for it,...ha ha. The thing is, if that's all we talk about any time we mention tablesaws, then talking about tablesaws has zero relevance to me any more, because I'm trained in the basic safety procedures that have been printed and reprinted in every woodworking mag published in the USA and aimed at the 'merican market, along with the many books (I mentioned Tolpin's before). That is the galaxy that surrounds my point of reference. I guess I could pretend to be a European woodworker, but, as Popeye says, "I yam what I yam!"
Have a good weekend, FG - beautiful weather down here this time of year, hope yours is the same! Ed
Don't know much about these regulations referred to in the above posts. Are all dado blades prohibited!? What about for use in a radial arm saw where the cut is visible? What's the major concern?
I know they're not interested in buying into the philosophy Ed. They just want the riving knife. It was gaining erronous currency as the cure-all that prevents all table saw accidents-- I started a thread in the Power Tools forum to knock that on the head. It doesn't prevent all accidents, and it can't. It's only part of the equation as I've discussed before.
You wish to continue to use a table saw in the mode that you are familiar with. You do all those exposed blade operations that are normal in the US. That's fine by me. You live in America and work under American regulations using an American style of work. I find those working methods uncomfortable and didn't use them when I lived there. That's just me.
The short fence question. Ripping a piece of ply in half with the fence set short is as easy as pie. I've been doing it for 30 odd years. I'm used to it, comfortable with it and it's accurate. There's no point me trying to explain how it's better. It's just different. All you need to know is that in the hands of a skilled operator it's effective. The one thing I can say is that I've split board materials on US saws with long fences too. Of course the splitter and guards were nowhere to be found in the TX workshops I worked in.. I always found it extremely uncomfortable simply because it isn't the way I was trained and work.
Essentially what I'm getting at is that a riving knife on its own offers very little in terms of safety over a splitter, as you rightly point out. I do rather believe it only makes any sense if you take on board a whole different philosophy of table saw usage-- something you don't want to do.
As far as I can tell, the only advantage to you of the SawStop machine you're buying is its ability to stop dead if the blade contacts flesh. It doesn't cut your fingers off which is a genuine benefit of course. The riving knife element of the machine is unimportant given your working preferences or methods. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 10/1/2006 2:42 pm by SgianDubh
>Of course the splitter and guards were nowhere to be found in the TX workshops I worked in.. < Sgian Dubh
That I very much believe, based on the commercial cabinet shops I have observed. On the day of the OSHA inspection, they would magically appear.
In the school systems shops I have seen (such as the ones my Dad taught in): Splitter and Guards attached
In the military MWR woodworking shops I have visited around the world: Splitter and Guards attached.
In the Community College shops I have stuck my head in, in the various places I have lived (usually inquiring about buying lumber under their co-op deal): Splitter and Guards begin to show a mysterious rate of attrition - sometimes still attached, sometimes not.
In the commercial cabinet shops I have stuck my head in or worked in: Splitter and guards usually MIA (missing in action). As if by magic, they appear on the day that OSHA inspects.
I'm browsing here, but can you explain why all the emphasis is on the take off end of the saw bench? Common sense would indicate a long run in to the blade with a long fence ending about level with the arbour would enable one to hold the work to the fence whilst avoiding problems. Yet all the benches seem to have little table in front, perhaps as a consequence of the after market fence lobby.
I have just been reading a published article written by your correspondent, with a photo showing him working at a Wadkin plus take off tables, the total footprint of which must have come close to the area of my workshop.
I can't really understand what you're asking, mufti, and my interest in this subject has just about completely waned at this point. Maybe someone else knows,...
I feel like we've conclusively established that some machines are inherently dangerous if they are used in a dangerous manner. That's like saying if you climb into a Dodge Viper on the Pacific Coast Highway, cruise toward the nearest hairpin turn and mat the accelerator for about 15 seconds, something exciting might happen. Well duhhhhh,... I still want the Dodge Viper.
Have a good day, Ed
Hi, FG. Take a look at the Merlin splitter. Mine has worked very well on my Jet saw. It is quick release with no tools, tilts, has a built-in anti-kickback pawls, and is big enough that it somewhat guards the blade from errant contact with hands. My zero clearance inserts fit right around it. In my opinion, it does 99% of what I have read that a riving knife does. The only limitation is that it must be removed (easily) for any cut that is not a through-cut. I'm not sure what happens with a riving knife in that situation.
I have the Merlin on my old (old!) blue Jet contractor's saw. Makes life sooooooo much easier! It was really designed for my model (nothing is, LOL) but I got it to work. Just have to be careful not to raise the blade too high, since there's a clearance problem under the table.
"I'm not sure what happens with a riving knife in that situation." Apparently, some knives can be left on, but some are too high and must be removed.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
My saw is a blue Jet (ten years old) and the Merlin fits just fine. Yours must be really old.
"Yours must be really old." The tech who fixed it for me awhile back (and sold me a set of cast-iron wings for $60) called it a dinosaur!! It was free, what can I say....forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think the company "Excalibur" went out of business. At least, I can't find them online anymore.Anybody know if they make/made a splitter that will fit the RIDGID TS3650?TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
Excalibur was purchased by General and rolled into their GI line of products. You can see it under table saw accesories, however it only saws which General saws it fits.
If my memory of the old Excalibur tools web site serves me right, it only fit a limited number of saws and Rigid was not one of them (nor was my GI 50-220).
Excalibur was purchased by General, no word yet on what they are going to do with it. Here is a link that will keep you posted.
http://www.general.ca/excalibur/pagetitre/an/welcome.html
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
How many of you clamor for a riving knife because you are too freaking stupid to utilize (many) existing splitters (and guards, and half-fences) up to their potential?
Too stupid? Is this suppose to be proof by intimidation? I assure you that the vast number of us are not stupid rather we see the value in the riving knife. The point I suppose is not to put the riving knife on some pedestal, rather we want to see improvemnts in the design of our table saw. Most notably the splitter/guard.
There are many aftermarket spliters and guards, but in the case of hobbiests the price approaches the cost of the saw. If saws came equiped with a better spliiter this may not be an issue. The riving knife currently available on NA saws are many times better than standard splitter shipped with most saws, I believe that's why it's held in high regard.
I use the spliiter guard combo on my machine because it's all I have. To this point, I have not found anything reliable to replace it with (GI 50-220). Maybe you know of something.
The back teeth would come into contact with the kerf before either the splitter or the riving knife.
Fair enough. But you also have an addition 1" of board travel that passes the blade before it engages the splitter. However the riving knife also have other advantages, in some cases you can do through cuts without removing the knife (on some saws), and the american riving knives are quick release (stock, not aftermarket).
I would very much like to see (here on the Knots) new woodworkers to be encouraged to develop their brain rather than to be 'guided' toward gizmos as a compensation for brain retardation.
I think this statment really shows the opposite ends we are approaching this topic from. My view is that riving knives, sawstops, etc. are insurance, but in no way replace skill. If someone can not use a table saw safely without them then they should not use them. Your view, as it seems to be presented to me, is that safety devices are acting as a crutch to those who are learning and that it allows us to relax on our proper technique.
Yes, many companies have dubious ethics - but there is nothing ethical about not developing our own smarts and being unfaithful to safe practices. But then, it is easier to see a sliver in somebody else's eye than a log in our owm...
Fair enough. Ethically we do have a resposibility to learn how to use our machines properly and safely. This is of the highest priority, and I believe something we both agree on. Once this has been met it is up to the companies to act ethically in manufacturing suitable equipment rather than shoddy deisgned 'safety' features. Specifically when the design is already available, and in use elsewhere in the world.
Buster
Metod thanks for clarifying.
Like you I've never had a kickback, though I've seen it once with splitter in place. Poor techniques caused it, and no splitter would have prevented it. The closest I have come to a kickback was last year when I was cutting up some hard maple. The kerf closed up tight on the front portion of the splitter. Had it pinched the blade... Ouch. Regardless a little less space wouldn't be a bad thing.
The companies produce for profit, not to sustain/support some ethical principles.
I was bringing company ethics up as an argument point. Whenever sawstop is brought up people are on about it's non ethical business practices (re: Mandatory use...). But no one has asked the simpler question of business ethics such as what is Grizzly/Delta/General/etc. doing to improve the safety of their products. If the knots community is willing to discuss the ethics of one practice, they should also discuss the ethics of another. I don't want to change this topic to a sawstop debate, mearly I wish to point out some inconsistencies in the knots forum regarding safety.
Your last paragraph made me chuckle. It seems I'm in the North American Capital of well stuffed low productivity workshops. All these close to retirement oil guys with acres of shop space the newest shiny tools, and not one scrap of wood in the place. Despite being around, these guys are just the minority. Most of the wood community here is producing something and really making the best of their time in the shop. Speaking of which it's about time I got back out there...
Have Fun
Buster
We as consumers are also (not sole) our enemy. Good quality products 'need' to be more expensive, because they cost more to produce. We are loath to pay higher prices, the companies are loath to make lower profits.
Very very true. After reading this I don't think we are too far off in ideas.
I agree, very much. I would also welcome the WW magazines to be a very visible part of it - can they afford it by risking to lose some of their advertizing revenues?
FWW has been promoting the riving knife, in it's own way. If I remember the correctly from the table saw review they picked Laguna and Sawstop essentially because of the advanced safety features.
Your economic assesment is fairly accurate. For both space and economic reasons I try to limit the number of tools I keep in the shop, and allow my more collector type friends to purchase the gizmos.
It's funny that your brought up router lifts. Of the ones I've poked at (they are pretty cool) they are constructed pretty well, for surely better than some of the machines I've seen. What does that say about our tool buying habits.
I really don't know what the situation s in Europe, but I've always attributed it to a difference in attitude... The Europeans seem to be more receptive to legislation, we aren't. Look at some of the threads on Sawstop, and the arguments break away from if it is ethical to if the government should have any role in legislating safety.
Richard has pointed out a few times that European woodworkers, work like Eurpean woodworkers. If I get what he's saying is that the riving knife alone isn't what makes the Eurpean saws safer, it's the method of work. The safety features only facilitate this method. (Please forgive me if I wrong, got some teeth drilled today...) I believe this essentially returns to our original arguments: Safe method, then safety gear.
Regarless, although economics plays a huge role in my large machine buying decisions, I do strive to get the best quality tools. But then again we all seem to say this. :) I also must admit that I have been guilty of gizmoism (new disease). It happens, and ocasionally the gizmo is worth it's weight in gold... Anyway, the freezing is coming out so back to the shop for me...
"I really don't know what the situation s in Europe, but I've always attributed it to a difference in attitude... The Europeans seem to be more receptive to legislation, we aren't. "
Well, we have a lot of people over here harping on about the "nanny state", too! (Although they are generally ill-informed and self-opinionated to boot - but then everyone has a right to their own opinions..... ;-) )
"Richard has pointed out a few times that European woodworkers, work like Eurpean woodworkers. If I get what he's saying is that the riving knife alone isn't what makes the European saws safer, it's the method of work. The safety features only facilitate this method."
That's quite correct. But there is also a difference in the materials used here, particularly in mass-produced/industrial cabinetry with MDF - veneered and melamine faced now being the dominant sheet materials as opposed to plywood in the USA. That in turn also leads to different methods of construction. However, even before the change in materials (really an early 1980s thing over here) we had already begun to move away from the use of dado heads on grounds of safety. As for riving knives, they came into common use on European table saws before WWII, together with suspended crown guards and short rip fences - I believe we may even have got some of our ideas from the American firms like Oliver, Fay & Egan, etc. (if you don't believe me - go take a look at an Oliver 88 or pokey round owwm.com) - which begs the question of "what happened, America?"
Scrit
Scrit,
You make some great points here, and I agree that much of this has to do with woodworker attitudes. But as I said before, I also believe it has to do with corporate attitudes.On the subject of melamine and MDF gaining prevalence in Europe, Europe has been ahead of the US on the use of builing materials for some time. Not necessarily because of better thinking -- I read that the first major move towards sheet goods in Europe was motivated by the deforestation that occurred during, and right after, World War II. It became the new style, but in this case style followed necessity. One could say that in this case necessity also inspired better ideas, not only in materials but also in building techniques. One could say that today European techniques, equipment, and even materials are ahead of the US. This is, of course, a matter of opinion.But it does explain a few things. For example, my Festool plunge saw (i.e., circular saw) does an excellent job of cutting melamine and other veneered material without chipping. It's one of the selling points of this saw. It also has a riving knife.
Edited 10/8/2006 9:44 am ET by MatthewSchenker
But on a different tack Matthew we Europeans are way behind the Americans in other regards.
I watched a bunch of joiners here building a garage. It was a bit like watching four clueless monkies simultaneously trying to have sex with one basketball. Old fashioned saws. Dink, dink, dink as hammer hit nail. I've never seen so much wasted effort to knock up such a simple structure.
The Yanks would have had it up and in use in less than a week, probably. These guys were at it for nearly four. What a waste of effort. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
We need a new continent that combines the best tools, attitudes, and ingenuity of Europe and North America, without losing the well-being and available funds for tool purchases.We could call it Euromerica.Maybe if global warming continues, we can found a colony in what is now known as Antarctica. We could invite the best minds from both sides of the Atlantic, and we would build the finest furniture in the world, using the best techniques and the most desirable materials, accomplishing awesome results with just the right speed so as to be both efficient and profitable, and all with no injuries.
Edited 10/8/2006 1:05 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Simply come to Alaska. According to most shippers and vendors we are not part of the continental US anyway, we are next to Canada but I doubt we'll ever pronounce the letter Z, "zed," and with the global warming issue we're on the front lines. Of course the polar bears are losing ice and thus seals, so they're getting more angry and hungry all the time.Alaska...... the new continent!(The downside is that all decent hardwood has to be imported from down south.)
Metod, and others,
I want a riving knife because it is better. How much better is not necessarily the point. When it comes to safety, I believe in incremental improvements to the machinery, along with good practices.
I never do dadoes on a table saw (use the router instead), and I always use my splitter and guard. I rip large sheets with my Festool system. In other words, I choose the safest method for each project goal. But at each step, I don't simply rely on the machinery.
Metod,
I think you misunderstand the motivation of people who want riving knives and other European features on their equipment. You assume people choose to buy a machine just because it is European. But this is backwards. People want something better and safer, and when they take a look around, the companies that offer this happen to be European. Of course, SawStop is beginning to change this perception.
Now, of course, not every single European machine is designed better. I've been looking into this very seriously in recent years, and there is lots of junk in Europe! But the best of what comes out of European, and Eastern European, companies is far and away better than what is available in the US.
You base a lot of your arguments on people's lack of thinking (you said people should use their brains instead of seeking riving knives). Extend this philosophy to the companies that make machines, not only those who buy the machines. American companies ought to begin showing us that they are using their brains and ingenuity in their machine designs.
I would absolutely love to buy American. But why should I give my loyalty, and dollars, to American companies just because they are American? Shouldn't the companies have to earn my loyalty, and my dollars? Certainly, if American companies show no concern for my safety they don't deserve my loyalty. Blind loyalty does not support American companies. It just rewards a lack of ingenuity and makes the companies lazy.
Edited 10/4/2006 8:37 am ET by MatthewSchenker
I think you guys are generalizing a great deal when you say that American companies don't care about safety, just about the bottom line. I do believe that there are companies that care about safety but are afraid of being punished in the market for raising prices. Every time somebody chooses to buy a cheap Chinese knockoff product they are voting with dollars for what companies should build. I don't buy tools from Lowes or HD because that represents the worst in tool mediocrity. I choose to try and patronize stores with high-quality products. FWIW, this topic and the Festool topic have me seriously thinking about selling my 92" TS.
I do agree however, that more safety features can be incorporated into the lower priced tools. I remember when you could get a sears 7 1/4 tablesaw that had an open front and back. Things have progressed, but it could definitely be better.
Bill in N. CA
CaptainChaos,
You are absolutely correct when you say, "Every time somebody chooses to buy a cheap Chinese knockoff product they are voting with dollars for what companies should build."Certainly, if consumers buy cheaper tools with less safety buit in, we are sending a message that we don't care about safety, only price.But it works the other way, too. If we buy higher-end tools, like Festool, we are voting for the option of "I'll spend a little extra money for excellent quality and better safety."But I don't blame consumers entirely. The hunger for quality tools does exist in America. If American manufacturers wanted to, they might be able to produce something as good as German companies do, and they would have a market for it. But they just don't do it. I said "might" for a reason: I always wonder whether there is something more behind this than mere choice. This gets into a much larger question, but I see something different about the attitude in corporate leadership, customer service, and attention to detail when German companies are compared with American companies.Whatever you might say about SawStop, at least they took the plunge.
Edited 10/6/2006 9:22 am ET by MatthewSchenker
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled