Replies

1. 
   pzgren | May 11, 2006 07:29pm | #1

   <<So, what do you think? Am I over-reacting? A Luddite? Living in a (19th Centruy) fools paradise? Or do these pitches dismay you as well? Any other companies that are offenders? Any collective action that might change things?>>

     I agree with you whole-heartedly about this kind of nonsense. It just irritates the $@#@%$&(*(*^$ out of me.

     For me, it falls into the same category as poor or non-existent customer service at a brick and mortar store: if a store or company gives me bad or no service and fails to correct it, I return the favour by giving them no business and plenty of free (negative) word-of-mouth advertising. (And I tell the manager or owner that the service was totally unacceptable, I won't be doing business with them any more, and that I will relate my negative experience to everyone I meet.). All I really look for is civil employees, not having to compete with private cell phone conversations (ARRRGGGGHHH!!!), not being ignored when I'm looking for assistance (and yes, I'm perfectly willing to wait until they finish with the previous customer...), and a basic level of competence regarding information on the items the store sells. Is that asking too much?

   _____

     I have my spam filter set on "high," so it gets most of it before it clutters up my in-box. I also subscribe to the idea that the offending company gets told once to cool their jets or they lose my business permanently. 

     For spam received in snail mail, I take all of the junk, shred it (so some ID thief can't use it) and then stuff it into their post-paid envelope and send it back to them at their expense. BUT....I put lots of extra in, making the envelope over-thick and over-weight, so that the postage ends up costing them a couple of $$. For a couple of the really obnoxious credit card companies that made the mistake of sending me 5 or 6 "offers" in one month, I taped a brick to the post-paid envelope and sent it back to them...they finally figured that one out......

     (And yes, I did the "opt-out" thing; from the volume of junk I've received since doing that, it seems that all I actually did was confirm to the credit card and other useless junk merchants that my address was a valid address.....)

   _____

     So....collectively, I think that a large number of polite-but-firm "nasty-grams" to the owner/CEO/etc., may sometimes have some effect; postings in places like this forum might also have some effect (in fact, it might be worth sending them a link to this thread, so that they can see the negative effects of their marketing greed....). Bad PR tends to get the attention of most companies.....  Organising pickets, boycotts, etc., if you have the time and inclination to do so. Otherwise, just quit buying from them and let them know that's what you're doing and why.

   Cheers!

   James

1. 
   citrouille | May 12, 2006 08:20pm | #8

   <I taped a brick to the post-paid envelope and sent it back to them...they finally figured that one out......>Now THAT is a good one ! It just happen that I have a dozen or so old bricks I never was able to throw out, now I know what to do with them !Thanks,C.

1. 
   Glaucon | May 13, 2006 05:04am | #9

   Thanks for the replies...I am pretty religious about "opting out"... and I did not receive any offers for 3-4 months after placing my order. Having said that, I cannot honestly remember whether I checked anyboxes or not, since it was a single order from 6 months ago...I think Rockler and other companies ar entitled to our money to pay for things we order from them. Full stop. Not our email address, or phone number, or marketing particulars. When they take those liberties, the lines between them and a "spammer" get pretty blurry in my view.<I taped a brick to the post-paid envelope and sent it back to them...they finally figured that one out......>LOL. I have plenty of used cat litter... I think I just figured out a new recycling angle for it...Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | May 13, 2006 06:02am | #10

   You're not the only one Glaucon.

   here's the response from Rockler (Scott ? - Marketing team leader) directly to someone else's similar complaint.

   http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/messages.pl?frames;read=271205

   I've pilfered his email address off the post and have copied this directly to him.  Scott may care to respond to you as well.

   Cheers,

   eddie(on a sunny late Autumn day with a temp of 24C outside)

    

2. 
   zombeerose | May 16, 2006 01:21am | #16

   A brick! I never thought of that one! You have gained my eternal respect ;)

   "100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"

2. 
   John_D | May 11, 2006 10:26pm | #2

   Most companies, when collecting your email address, will have a little check box that allows you to specify whether or not you wish to get "offers" from them.  Sometimes "third-party offers" get a separate check box, sometimes not.

   Sometimes those boxes are checked by default, so people who don't read every single thing on the page, by default, are added to the marketing lists.  I prefer sites that, by default, opt you out.

   Every email you receive on behalf of Rockler should include some sort of opt-out link.  I think you'll find that reputable companies (as opposed to professional spammers and assorted script kiddies) respect the opt-out, and you'll actually be removed from lists.

   Hope this helps.

   My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
1. 
   Glaucon | May 12, 2006 12:02am | #3

   <"Every email you receive on behalf of Rockler should include some sort of opt-out link. I think you'll find that reputable companies (as opposed to professional spammers and assorted script kiddies) respect the opt-out, and you'll actually be removed from lists.">You are right John- and I'm quite familiar with the opt out concept, and am pretty religious about using it. I did not receive dunning messages from Rockler until several months after I ordered from them, now they are a daily occurence. This leads me to believe that they "changed" their privacy policies and have simply outsourced their customers' names and addresses to the highest bidder. As for the distinction between Rockler and spammers... I judge them by the company they keep. Let's just say that they are not on my A-list...My point is that if others find this as objectionable as I do, a common reply of refusing to use a vendor and stating the reason will likely get their attention. When faced with the loss of repeat business from an established customer, the minute rewards of bad behavior (a fraction of a cent for each sold email address) start to look unattractive.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   John_D | May 12, 2006 01:41am | #4

   While I understand your frustration, my day job is fighting spammers.  You may see Rockler as a spammer, but for me there are useful distinctions between those who use this data illegally and those who do not.

   I don't dispute your right to be irritated, but I'm professionally curious whether you recall opting in, and whether they've ignored your request to be removed from their lists.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

1. 
   Rackman | May 12, 2006 03:00am | #5

   If u think Rocker is out of line. Today I received a Elvis credit card offer! I guess the king is not dead. I do recall someone paying  HUGH dollars for the marketing rights. I would email Rocker and let them NO how u feel.

2. 
   dukeone | May 12, 2006 04:30am | #6

   John: Just wanted to agree with you on your point about business' that have the "opt out" checked by default. The spam may still be annoying but at least there is some honesty in not being artificially "opted in" by not paying attention to every square inch of each order or reply you send somewhere.

   DukeKenneth Duke Masters

   The Bill of Rights December 15 1791 NRA Endowment Member

   LEAA Life Member

   CRPA Member

3. 
   WillGeorge | May 12, 2006 07:56pm | #7

   I deal with Rockler sometimes..
   As I recall (I could be wrong) my local place asked if I wanted to be included in E-Mail offerings.. I said NO and do not get any.. I do get a 'bit' in the mail though..

   Not defending them.. Just my experience with them..

4. 
   rickswoodworking | May 13, 2006 05:32pm | #11

   hi,

   i agree 100% with you on how irritating it is to get these kinds of emails that you never requested.  i'm convinced that no matter how careful you are, or how good companies are at protecting your email address, it still manages to get 'out there' somehow.

   a couple of years ago i decided to try to get around this problem by creating a few extra email addresses thru my isp.  my main email address is the only one i use to communicate with friends and acquaintances - people i know.

   the other email addresses, what i call junk addresses, are the ones i use for filling out any internet questionaires, information, subscriptions etc. etc.  then, if i start getting spam or stuff i don't want to get, i simply delete that email and make a new one.

   it's actually worked pretty well - my personal email account is still completely clean and free from any kind of spam and/or junk mail. 

   i recently created a woodworking website and i am using the email address associated with that web for any correspondence there.  i'm guessing that will probably lead to some problems but so far so good - i can always change that - my web host provider allows 2,500 email addresses so that should be enough to keep me ahead of the spammers if i have to.

   Rick in Cowichan Bay, B.C. - 50km north of Victoria, B.C.

   My Website:  http://www.rickswoodworking.ca

1. 
   John_D | May 13, 2006 11:33pm | #13

   Rick, that is a very good strategy.

   Spammers get and build their lists in many ways.  Most of them, the script kiddies and newbies, buy or barter for their email lists, a few million at a time.

   The lists are traded about endlessly.  One way they are updated is to "scrape the web."  They set a web spider loose, visiting thousands of web pages per hour, looking for anything that looks like an email address.  So if you use your email address that way, you're very likely to end up on spam lists.

   This is one reason this Knots software is pretty handy.  Spammers can't harvest our email addresses, because they're not visible on the site!

   A default opt-out on web pages is good, but I find it hard to be upset with a company that emails me, if I've done business with them.  But if I want 'em to stop emailing me, I let them know (usually there's an opt-out link) -- and if they continue to email me after I've followed their procedure, I figure they're of low integrity and make my business decisions accordingly.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

5. 
   user-152675 | May 13, 2006 07:13pm | #12

   Glaucon,

   Allow me to apologize to you and anyone else on this board that didn't appreciate the Rockler Credit Card e-mail offer we sent this week.  Like many companies, we do have a credit card with the Rockler logo that allows you to earn $20 gift cards for future Rockler purchases whenever you use your card. 

   Some of our customers enjoy using this card and earning these discounts.  However, I do understand that not everyone finds this appealing.  I - like many of you - get a ton of credit card offers in the mail and elsewhere (from my alma-mater, companies I do business with, associations I belong to, etc.).  Based on the feedback we've received, we will be evaluating how and if we will continue marketing our credit card - and how this impacts our reputation.

   We do value the trust customers place in us when they give us their e-mail address and will continue to find ways for customers to fine-tune their preferences for what information they want to hear from us.  We do include an opt-out link on all our e-mails and religiously enforce this.

   Thanks to Andrew for bringing this thread to my attention.  I appreciate the feedback you all have provided. 

   Best Regards,

   Scott Ekman
   VP of Marketing
   Rockler Woodworking and Hardware
   http://www.rockler.com 

   P.S.  While this doesn't address all credit card offers, if you want to cut down on those 'pre-approved' credit card offers you receive in the mail, I've personally found this opt-out site very effective:  http://www.optoutprescreen.com

1. 
   storme | May 15, 2006 07:27pm | #14

   Scott,Thank you for replying directly. Another data point for your marketing discussions, I actually try to avoid companies that market too aggresively, I appreciate hearing about new things but more than that and it gets obnoxious. I'm probably on the cutting edge of this, but I watch no live TV or radio anymore to escape the ads (I get these things off the internet, without ads).Americans (and probably others as well) are full up with marketing, time to scale it back. My favorite supplier, hands down, is Lee Valley, you'd do well to emulate them. What I like best about them is that they sell consistently high quality goods, they are low key, their service is excellent, they sell replacement parts for the tools they sell and their website is fast and well designed, oh and their prices are very competive. Mostly the feeling I get from them is quiet integrity, if they sell something cheap they let you know that the tool isn't top quality but it's useful for X anyway. I also like that they try to educate you about what they sell, as a newbie, this has been invaluable.I also like Amazon a lot - they ship fast, it's free with a membership and the comments are very useful. That said, I'd rather do business with a woodworking store if someone could match these elements.Grizzly gets poor marks in my book because I've repeatedly asked them to not ship me popcorn - they always do anyway and in fact they've never acknowledged my request even to apologize that their system doesn't make it possible. thanks once again for posting, I appreciate and note the responsiveness you've shown and I wish you luck in finding the right balance.best,
   -s

1. 
   Glaucon | May 15, 2006 09:16pm | #15

   I agree 100%, and could not have said it better.For those who are trying to market to a segment of the public: 1) Know YOUR market (it is not EVERYBODY, don't go with the lowest common denominator) 2) Listen to them, don't dictate a message 3) Don't pi$$ off paying customers (they can and will go to your competition) 4)Recognize that you will get a limited number of chances to put your message out there- if you saturate with email- you WILL be tuned out.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   xcutsaw | May 22, 2006 10:53am | #23

   >>I've personally found this opt-out site very effective: http://www.optoutprescreen.com<<watch out: these people ask for your social security number. why would they want this? I googled "optoutprescreen" and found hits where people concluded this was a scam to get your personal info. (I can't vouch for any of them, but why give out your SSN to an unknown entity?)

   [Avoid schadenfreude]

6. 
   Cheatah | May 16, 2006 06:16pm | #17

   G:

   I do agree that the email junk mail from Rockler can be a pain in the arse. You did not ask for it, but get it anyway. I also, do not like it.

   However, we all know that it costs peanuts to advertsie via web based tools. It is a very viaable and cost-effective method. I estimate that if only 5 people buy due to the ads, it pays for itself.  So, I understand Rockler's view point....afterall they are in business and need to generate incremental revenue.

   And at the sametime, how long does it really take to delete the email. I now delete mine regularly. There is an"unsubscribe" link. But I still like to get the emails...never know when they just might have deal.

   Don't sweat it too much...it's a little thing....ya know.

    

    

    

   Thank you,

   Cheatah

1. 
   Glaucon | May 16, 2006 06:38pm | #18

   I tend to agree with you but...Where does it stop?Rockler was emailing me every day... why not every hour? every 5 minutes?You are right that it is tempting from the companies point of view to use spam (my definition of spam: email that I did not request, trying to sell me something that I don't want) to market itself since the cost is so low.But is it? The cost to the end user of having to filter it, delete it, to have things we do want to receive be buried amongst all the dreck... sure it is a few minutes of an individual's time, but when a company sends out millions of spam messages, it is a cost we all bear. It is estimated that about 75% of all the messages on the 'net are spam, how much bandwidth is that? Is that bandwidth free? Who pays for it (hint: it is not the spammer).There is another cost- in credibility. Most WW firms are in the business of specialty maketing- they sell largely to professionals and serious amateurs- they're not selling soft drinks or lottery tickets. When they send me spam, their reputation and credibility takes a big hit- why should I want a credit card from someone that I bought hinges from? What else will they send me? What will be tomorrow's "Deal of the Day"- diapers? Viagara? Nigerian lottery tickets? If I was running a company that was trying to differentiate itself from its competition, I wouldn't go in that downhill direction. Why would I buy from Rockler when I can get most of the same things from other companies such as LV without the hassle?I think my larger point is that if those of us who find this irritating push back, the offending companies will have to back off- which is what Rockler seems to be doing. If WE don't set any limits, companies like Rockler sure won't.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

   Edited 5/16/2006 11:40 am ET by Glaucon

1. 
   John_D | May 16, 2006 08:43pm | #19

   I'm still curious if the emails you're receiving have an unsubscribe link, and whether or not clicking it stops the emails...My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

1. 
   Glaucon | May 16, 2006 10:56pm | #20

   Yes, they do-and I have used it. Last solicitation from Rockler is from 5/14.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

7. 
   craig | May 17, 2006 03:24pm | #21

   Call corporate and let them know how you feel.  They do listen.

8. 
   BigK | May 22, 2006 10:05am | #22

   I don't think that you are overreacting at all. I resent solicitations in any shape, manner, or form. A couple of months ago when I was paying for my purchase at my local Rockler they tried to pitch that very charge card to me at the register. Told them how I felt about solication. Also said that I hoped this was not going to be a standard practice for them in the future. I probably said something comparing that to the street corner beggars we have around here. I have not heard that pitch again. Kind of makes me glad that I haven't ordered from them online though.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/22/2006 3:17 am ET by BigK