Rockler has really done it now! As reported at the WWA forum, and important enough to be posted here, IMHO. Rockler’s 4-piece Safey Kit includes their “Magnetic Push Stick.” The push stick is actually a push bar made from aluminum which they claim “gives you great stock support, yet won’t damage blades if contact is made.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong! One of the WWA members had this “stick” contact his Forrest WWII blade while ripping, and lost a carbide tooth from the blade. Fortunately, he was not hurt.
According to a subsequent post, Rockler has refused to compensate him in any way other than to credit him for the so-called push stick.
Don’t know about you guys, but a metal push stick seems like a real bad idea, aluminum or not.
Click here for original report.
Replies
I've seen this pushstick a number of times while visiting my local Rockler & wondered why they'd market something like that. That said, I think Rockler owes him the cost of the repair of his blade at a minimum, and I've written Rockler stating that opinion & including the links to both forums where they're getting the bad press. If enough of us stand up and complain, they pretty much have no choice but to make it right, as well as remove it from their inventory. My single bad experience with Rockler a couple of year ago was made right as soon as they found out about it, I expect they'll continue to uphold this tradition of customer service, they just need a bit of reminding.
My $0.02
David
I do not see how it is Rocklers responsibility to replace the blade. Nothing they did caused the damage to the blade. They sold a product & it was not used properly.
Hey Chris,<<"...They sold a product & it was not used properly. ">>That's a very interesting observation, and incidentally, nearly verbatum of the response that was given by "Chris" at Rockler. How is it that you've determined that the push stick was not used properly? Particularly, when Rockler specifically claims that it won't damage a saw blade if it makes contact?Tom
Chris,
The proper use of a push stick is to keep your fingers away from the blade.If anything makes contact it is the push stick,not fingers.Therefore----the push stick was used for the intended use and did not perform as advertised.
Rockler may be avoiding the obvious,but,don't be surprised if this item quietly disappears from their stock list.
Brent
"They sold a product & it was not used properly."
Chris,
How did you determine the product was not used properly? If it was being used to push a piece of stock then it was being used what it was intended for.
A push stick is supposed to be sacrificial. It should save your fingers and your blade.
Perhaps your correct in saying "how it is Rocklers responsibility to replace the blade." But I would think they should offer to pay for the repair of the blade.
IMO.Hi, I'm Len and I'm a Toolaholic...
"How did you determine the product was not used properly?"
Len,
Because I saw a picture of the push stick & blade on the other site. If this had happened while pushing a board through the saw the blade would have just cut the push stick. The cut would have been smooth. The push stick was ether dropped into the blade or it hit the blade after the cut. It takes a sudden jolt to break a carbide tooth. Look at the picture. The cut is very rough & there is one large nick in the side. It was not against the wood when this happened & it hit the blade hard.
"If it was being used to push a piece of stock then it was being used what it was intended for."
It was not pushing against the wood when this happened.
My advice to everyone.
(Do not use metal or plastic push sticks.)
Chris
Plastic is dangerous too!
At least one I used once... It hit the blade a SHATTERED? Bits and pieces flying everywhere!
Dumb me thought the plastic would just cut. I was WRONG!
I was taught early to evaluate my push sticks in terms of "What would it look like hurling at near supersonic speed, possibly fragmented?" Therefore I always use wood, no sharp edges, no metal or plastic, no "icepicks" or metal or joinery with nails and screws, etc. I painstakingly round over all edges. I was also taught that if the pushstick is getting close to the tablesaw or bandsaw blade, to "ground" the pushstick on the table if possible as those blades will "snap" the pushstick pretty good. Hands at least 4 inches from the blade. Bottom four inches of the "Bizness end" of the push stick painted red. Good luck, Ed
Just to pour fat on the fire, I remember reading a very early FWW article on the tricks of the patternmaking trade that advised using a STEEL ICE PICK as a pushstick. It was recommended for use on very small pieces because it held the piece very securely, and it had good clearance between the the blade and the fence, being very small.The article was even reproduced in one of the "On Woodworking" series. Obviously, patternmakers are/were consummate craftsmen, and would likely take extreme care when doing this.As Seinfeld would say, "just sayin'..."
Will,
That is interesting. The stick I use most is a Delta. It is sturdy and plastic, but the plastic is softer not brittle. Of course as earlier noted if it contacts the blade it will likely be shot right back at me. This is not a trade/hobbie for the careless or light of heart.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Guys, I am a piker. I get 3-5 stir sticks whenever I buy any kind of paint - even spray paint.
I then cut a birdsmount in the end and set the handle in a scrap of 1x2 and use my sander and a rasp to form a grip.. I use these mostly for cutting thin stock or resawing on the tablesaw.
I found that these stir sticks come in 2 thicknesses and 1 is the width of a thin kerf blade, the other is the width of regular blade kerf1 - measure the board twice
2 - cut it once
3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go
4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
plastic in and of itself isnt the culprit. I use a plastic push stick cut fro HD poly etehlene. My blade.over time, has nearly cut it half. The saw doesnt even grunt and the stick doesnt twitch.....it just takes it. Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
The marks on the pushstick show that it was cut in a way not compatible with where it should have been in use. But are you sure that it was not pushed into that position by the blade? There is a mark on the tip, a set of marks leading up the back edge, and then the big gouge from where the blade really caught it.I think the problem is the long thin stick, more than the aluminum.
Chris, did you read the claim made in their catalog?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sorry but I agree with Chris. Why would anyone use a metal push stick no matter what the claim. Don't people think.DJK
You're asking why anyone would use a metal pushstick, but you aren't asking why a company would sell one? If it's so obvious that metal pushsticks are a bad thing, why would Rockler sell them? They may have accepted the idea that it's not harmful to a blade since it's made of aluminum, but when the blade is spinning, it would need to be made of a softer material to not harm the blade. OTOH, I used a Pirhana blade and didn't know that a nail was in the piece of oak. It cut the nail and wasn't damaged. Go figure.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I read the forum on Rockler's site. It looks like they are doing the right things to make this right. After reading the "transcript" of the phone call there was obviously more to this than simply a bad push stick. If he really was using the stick correctly I would wager that the board kicked back before the stick touched the blade. He wasn't using a gaurd or kickback paws. I tend to believe Rocklers statement that they have had the stick meet the blade in their shop many times with no problem.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Well, the Rockler representative has heard the general message which was "metal push sticks are not safe and the vast majority of experienced WWers would not use one." Posted the following today:
Kudos to Rockler for stepping up.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I agree that it is NOT Rocklers fault. Ive seen that pushstick as well. I would never put any thing metal that close the a blade, weather is is a TS, MS, or a hand plane. I think that it is pretty dumb to buy it.
Having said that I also realise that what I consider common sense may not be so obvious to others. Obviously any one who buys that thing is totally unaware of the concequences of the puchstick meeting with the blade. Is that Rocklers fault? This is the same mentality that has people suing Mc Donalds for coffee being too hot.
just my opinion,
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I would never use a metal pushstick either. But for Rockler to put this stick into what they advertise as a Safety Kit is ridiculous. Yesterday, I went to their web site and submitted the following in their "New Products Suggestion" page. That "stick" was being used for it's intended purpose, and Rockler's stupid for putting it in their catalog.
"What problem or frustration would you like to see solved" "Rockler marketing a METAL PUSH "STICK" which is purported to be safe if it contacts the saw blade. Recent report on the on-line forums clearly proves it is NOT safe and can damage our expensive saw blades!
"Please describe what solution blah-blah-blah" "Take the aluminum push "stick" (which isn't a stick, it's a bar) OFF the market."
"Is there a particular product you would like us to carry?" "Something that actually is safe. If it needs to be magnetic, add a rare earth magnet or two to a wooden or plastic featherboard."
http://www.rockler.com/Suggestions.cfm
Wish I'd thought to say something about the injury possibility. That narrow-edged metal bar with it's pointed tips could do alot more damage than a wood or plastic item. (No, I don't use plastic either)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/4/2005 11:34 am ET by forestgirl
FG,
You are on the mark here. We can call it stupid to use this in retrospect, but Rockler is not supposed to be stupid. As a bigtime retailer, with the implied expertise that accompanies, they are supposed to be smarter than this. With all due respect to the poor fellow that bought this tool, this is like "giving a razor to a baby". We don't blame the baby.
Yeah, I know, he's not a baby, but, as you say, this was marketed in a safety kit and represented as harmless to a blade. As far as it not being presented to the blade in such a manner as to not damage the blade, I agree, this makes no sense. Any contact between blades and pushticks is unententional by definition and therefore uncontrolled. Your effort at getting this product off the market is commendable. If Lee Valley were to ever make this kind of mistake (hard to imagine) they would not only remove the product they would be tracking down the ones they sold and replacing them with something else.
Greg
I think the difficulty here is the "either-or" approach: either the woodworker is responsible for buying this item (or using it improperly), or Rockler is at fault for selling it. In my view, they both must share responsibility. The WWr should have known better, and perhaps been more careful, but Rockler has a duty not to sell products, that are, on their face, unsafe.
Safety products in particular should be... well, safe. They are designed to mitigate the cost of human error- the airbags in my car don't excuse me from driving recklessly, but perhaps, if I do have an accident, I'll walk away from it- the cost to me will be financial, not mortal.
A metal pushstick, in my view, is a product that is unsafe on its face- it is inherently a bad idea, and should not be sold. I cannot think of any situation in which it offers an advantage over a wooden one, and I can think of numerous places where it is positively dangerous. Rockler should not profit from it. This does not excuse the WWr for his folly (nor me for my driving), but I think they will have a product liability problem- and deserve to.
BTW- there is more to that McDonald's coffee story than meets the eyeGlaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
We are not in disagreement here at all, except, that Rockler bears more responsibility based on credibility. Common sense seems to argue that the WWr should have known better but none of us came out of the womb knowing these things. We tend to learn from folks who have learned before us, even though that can be a dangerous footpath (case in point). The MacDonald's coffee remark was someone else's, but you are right. There is almost always more than meets the eye.
Greg
Just my 2c's worth....
Someone who markets and sells Aluminum push sticks for use in woodworking, should be reported to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), and acted upon by the CPSC accordingly.
Woodworkers who purchase Aluminum push sticks, need serious safety training prior to using their dangerous power tools.
The comments about Aluminum being cut by carbide is true, but it also holds true for Steel and even hardened tool alloy steels being cut by carbide. None of these materials should come in contact with woodworking machinery, while used for milling wood.
"Woodworkers who purchase Aluminum push sticks, need serious safety training prior to using their dangerous power tools."This seems to be overwhelming obvious to the majority of this discussion. Rockler seems to disagree. What seems to be obvious to me is, that a person just starting in WW that just purchased her table saw and read about the proper way to rip boards, may walk into Rockler, buy their "safety kit", and ... there goes a body part. Rockler's customers include hobbyist that learn by advise and trial and error, not "training". If Rockler is selling a metal "safety" push stick, then they are obviously giving novices advise to use it.I don't see this as the same as hot coffee, cigarettes, or fatty food.Anyway, that's my $0.02Todd
Maybe I'm missing something here,and I haven't read through all the recent posts in this thread,but...........................WHY would anyone make a MAGNETIC push stick when the idea of a push stick is to guide the wood past a METAL saw blade?????
Sorry if this question has come up in the thread ,but I'm short on time right now and can't read through everything until tonight.
Brent
"If Lee Valley were to ever make this kind of mistake (hard to imagine) they would not only remove the product they would be tracking down the ones they sold and replacing them with something else." Absolutely! They've done this when there's been a harmless but not-to-specs manufacturing mistake.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I got a quick canned response back yesterday, but it had Ann Rockler's name on it, so I replied and emphasized my point that the "stick" isn't safe and should be removed from their catalog. It'll be interesting to see if I get any human response.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I personally think the guy made a stupid mistake buying the "safety kit" in the 1st place. Sure Rockler advertised it as a safety kit. But ya know..there are snake oil salesmen out there. Buyer beware screams at this situation.
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"Buyer beware screams at this situation." He bought the safety kit as a "newbie" woodworker, which is exactly to whom they market their safety kits. Between the fact that they call it a Safety Kit and the fact that they expressly state the thing will not damage a saw blade under contact, I think it's pretty clear where the responsiblity lies, especially given their target buyer.
Rockler has clearly seen the error of their ways, as they are going back to the drawing board with this one.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Caught a glimpse at "Hometime" this morning and whar do I see? One of the carpenters ripping shims with , you guessed it, the Rockler aluminum pushstick. Good grief. At least it was on and off the screen so fast that most viewers would have not caught it. I only did because pushsticks have been the center of attention on a couple threads here. So much for the experts.
Greg
You know I am not convinced that the aluminum stick is all that bad, though I'd never use one. I have an overhead gaurd and once I had the blade set at 45 deg and started up the saw. However I forgot to adjust the gaurd and when I lowered it BAM!! It scared the $h!t out of me. The gaurd is made of plastic yet three teeth wrere chipped. I think the real problem here was that he wasn't using his saw safely; no gaurd, kickback paws. It would be difficult to get the stick in the blade ripping a 3" board under normal conditions, I think the kickback happened first.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
this is a very poorly designed push stick. I prefer one with a lot more wood against the work piece. the one you are refering to has whet looks like a 3/4 by 3/4 notch at the end ,not enough to keep the material firmly against the table.
<<this is a very poorly designed push stick>>
My sentiments exactly.
> "Is there a particular product you would like us to carry?" "Something that actually is safe. If it needs to be magnetic, add a rare earth magnet or two to a wooden or plastic featherboard."
Rockler has those, I got 3 of them from Rockler.
As for the aluminum push stick, it seemed to me like a massively dumb idea, so I bought other stuff instead. The smart thing for Rockler to do would be to stop selling them, and give the guy a blade.
-- J.S.
Edited 5/4/2005 3:31 pm ET by JOHN_SPRUNG
I feel for the guy for damaging his blade and I'm glad he was not hurt, but who in their right mind would think to use a metal push stick. No matter what Rockler advertised we all should know metal and spinning saw blades don't mix well.
Just my two cents.
I absolutly agree. We all need to take responsibility for our actions. This is exactly the same argument that cigarette companies are responsible for our dying from smoking when everyone knows it will kill you. If its so obvious to yout FG, why do you think Rockler is to blame?
TDF
Carbide tipped blades are used all the time for cutting aluminum. It's how it is done in many cases in machine shops and in boat building. I have used both my RAS and my table saw with standard carbide tipped blades and never had a problem.Howie.........
"Carbide tipped blades are used all the time for cutting aluminum. It's how it is done in many cases in machine shops and in boat building."
Right you are Howie, but in those cases the aluminum is presented to the blade in a controlled manner, either clamped or constrained against the forces. I suspect one could cut aluminum all day long with a WWII if it is controlled properly. At the end of a handle is not controlled.
Greg
Howie:
You are right that carbide blades are use to cut aluminum all the time. I think the difference is that when you are trying to cut aluminum you use the proper blade. And if I am not mistaken it has a negative hook angle. When cutting wood you use a postive hook angle blade which has a tendency to pull whatever you are cutting into it. With the negative hook angle the blade does not have the tendency to pull the material into the blade. Using any metal around a positive hook angle blade is dangerous.
Joe
I just read a reply from Rockler on the original forum this was posted on (see Forestgirl's first post for the link).
It appears someone from Rockler joined that forum today after seeing the negative publicity they were getting there.
I guess their moto is better late than never to blame the customer instead of admitting error on their part.
A METAL PUSH STICK are they nuts?????
Brent
Actually, I have cut quite a bit of aircraft aluminum with carbide tipped saw blades, and it cuts as easily as most woods do.
When I want a particular angle for a dovetail gauge, I just cut a piece of aluminum extrusion, with the same blade and the same setup as I intend to use for my wooden parts.
I have never lost a carbide tooth to a piece of aluminum. I have seen Rocklers push stick, and there is nothing dangerous about it, but for narrow cuts, I just use a wider sacrificial pushstick and toss it when I am done. I always seem to have lots of pushstick shaped scraps around, and cannot for the life of me see why any one would buy such a thing.
Just as an aside- there is a big difference between aircraft ali and the re-cyled pot metal stuff that the infamous push stick is made from. Essentially the one cuts very nicely and smoothly whilst the other can give you serious problems-especially when contacting wood working blades
with big teeth.
Like you , I cannot see for the life of me....
There is no great difference in the cutability of aircraft aluminum, or architectural aluminum, or most any other aluminum that is capable of being made into that push stick. We just have a big deal here being made of nothing. All of them cut easier than many exotic hardwoods with carbide cutters.
Right on. When metal meet metal bad things happen.
I OWN ONE OF THOSE PUSH STICKS. I use it sometimes and have since I first took it out of the package been extra careful as I push it thru.
If I were Rockler I'd replace that "no damage" claim with a more honest one. And maybe replace the aluminum with plastic.
Amen.
Bob
I'm trying to understand why someone that calls him/herself a "woodworker" would spend money on a push stick in the first place. You're going to make an end table out of cherry, but a homemade push stick is over the top? You can make one in less time that it would take to type in your card number on rockler.com. Sometimes I can't believe how gadget obsessed we are as a group.
By the way, my grandfather would admonish me for setting up the tablesaw fence with a metal rule. I had to use a wooden rule. He wanted no metal near the blade. Consequently, the sale and use of a metal push stick offends my sensibilities.
Cheers
Kyle
Kyle,
Yep, I consent here, when I start ripping and cutting, I generate enough push sticks to supply the whole neighborhood's's barbecue requirements.
Kyle, my equivalent pushstick is made out a paint stirring stick sandwiched between contoured handles. Two woodscrew hold the handles on. When it is used up I will unscrew the handles and use another paint stick. I must confess to a little gadget obsession of my own, but not in this case.
Greg
Well, this gets into the whole "personal responsibility" talking point that seems to come up in these cases.
Metal push stick=pretty bad idea. When done by an individual in their own shop, its just stupid. When done by a company specializing in woodworking products that markets to hobbyists, then its irresponsible. They present themselves as experts and there is an implicit trust from a person that is new to woodworking techniques.
I don't see where business entities should be exempt from the standards we hold each other to. This whole "its a jungle out there" mentality get pretty old. Of course its a jungle out there. Thats why we have society to minimize it.
I'm a big believer in "We the People". That is what government is after all and why I like to have it around. To do the things I can't do myself or our neighborhood can't accomplish together. Build roads, provide infrastructure, national defense, etc. And to keep companies from marketing unsafe products.
I don't want to have to learn mechanical engineering to know if the blender or toaster I buy is going to fly apart or burn my house down. Hey it happens, but if it happens I want it to be an act of God; not some clown company's bad idea.
I may be a little more fired up about this than usual. Just got done replacing a power supply on my Dell and just found out that Dell got ####bad lot of power supplies and most 4600's built in the last quarter of 2003 are now dying. And they are making money on selling replacement power supplies even though they sold lemons. So I'm not too down on "business" responsibility right now.
Well, felt good to blow off some steam. Thanks.
I'm compelled to toss in my 2 cents' worth here. Was Rockler at fault? Absolutely. No question about it! What tool designer in his right mind would come up with such a lame-brained idea? Who was the Einstein in marketing that went along with it? The whole scenario is just unbelievably irresponsible.
But does the blame stop there? No way. If a person's mechanical aptitude does not dictate to him or her that there is inherent danger in shoving a piece of aluminum into a spinning saw blade, they should consider a hobby that does not involve flesh and cutting implements in close proximity.
Forgive me for the rant I'm about to embark on. The woodworking industries are not as profitable as they used to be and I put at least some (not all) of the blame on the TV shows and guys like Norm Abrams. They have trivialized the industry by giving viewers false impressions of the amount of time required to build a project, not to mention the skill level involved. Their teachings seem to revolve around the idea that anyone with a tablesaw, a router and a half-baked idea can produce heirloom quality pieces.
Alright, alright, I'll get down off my high horse now, but there's a point to be made. Any time you mix dangerous machinery and people who are not properly trained in the safe use of it, there will be accidents. Some of them will fall into the "DUH!" category like the unfortunate guy with the aluminum push stick. Some people just don't understand machinery.
If I had a problem with the transmission on my truck, I wouldn't start ripping it apart to try to find the problem just because I have the tools to do so. Nor would I expect to be able to build a metal frame house just because I went out and bought a welder. If you tread unfamiliar territory, you're going to find some unpleasant surprises along the way. That's just the way this big bad world works. Clint Eastwood put it very succinctly - "A man's got to know his limitations".
I've cooled my jets a bit but let me second your opinion.I find it hard to watch those "TLC" improvement soap opera's. Just some simple pine ply and some 2x4's with a touch of stain and beautiful craftsmanship ensues. And all in two days! They never show close-ups and rave about how simple it all is. It devalues our work and gives the viewing public the impression that there is no reason to pay a pro. Until they try it, but who knows how much of their budget they've blown at Home Depot in their first attempt.I've only been at this for about ten years and still am amazed how much there is to learn. Not a master, but probably a journeyman's level with determination.I think even I underestimated the amount of knowledge and skill needed to be good, not just capable.
I dissagree those TLC guys/gals pretty much suck. The best "crew" is probably In a Fix. And those jokers take 2 days to make a very crappy book case. The work dosent even look good.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Thats what I meant, I guess I need to up my sarcasm a notch or two.Its TV, so being pretty counts for more than skill. They may be skilled as well but building a kitchen full of cabinets in two days ain't going to show it. It means their fast, or at least their support crew is.I know they are "In a Fix" but takes a certain amount of time to do anything well. Not forever, but their is a tipping point with speed where efficiency ends and crap begins.
> The best "crew" is probably In a Fix.
You're joking, I hope. I saw part of an episode of that show once. They were taking out a door and drywalling the opening. They got the drywall about 1/2" recessed from the rest of the wall, and what do the bozos do? Tear it out, fur it flush and re-drywall? No way. They fill up the half inch with gallons of drywall mud, and screed it off with a level.
-- J.S.
Thats my point. Those guys suck. The first season they actually had a pretty talented crew. The Ausie was O.K. But the thing is you keep saying that they are sacrificing quality for speed. But they aren't fast. If I used their methods I could finish the same job in half the time. BTW I am not trying to make myself sound like Mr. super carpinter. I am prettygood skill wise, but I am slow by most pro standards. I saw that episode as well. The Sheetrock guy was doing something else at the time so the black guy and girl (I think) "fixed" the problem.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I believe you're incorrect fg-- I suspect you're getting your knickers twisted over the wrong issue. Like Howie, I'm familiar with cutting aluminium and other non-ferrous metals such as brass in sheet, tube and bar stock form with carbide tipped circular sawblades. For that matter I cut these materials with HSS blades before the time of carbide tipped tools being all pervasive.
Similarly I've been using non-carbide and carbide tipped router bits for cutting aluminium and other non-ferrous metals, but admittedly I've only been doing this on and off since about 1975.
Perhaps the 'sainted' and often allegedly 'infallible' Forrest made a sawblade with a badly brazed on tooth or two and owe the unfortunate user a free brazing job? An aluminium push stick is just chicken feed to a well made saw, but a badly made saw can lose a tip easily enough, and a bit of knotty pine-- inconsistent and harder than aluminium in places by the way-- will see to that in no time.
A concerted campaign by yourself and other irregular and inexperienced saw blade users against Rockler to get their push stick product off the market I believe is ill-conceived, not well thought out, and based on the sort of hysteria that only internet forums can generate.
There's a lot of tosh talked on woodworking forums as well as good information. I mean, who would believe that that old last-gasp-get-you-out-of-a-hole-in-a-desperate-situation sandpaper trick would ever become a mainstream blade sharpening technique but for its mythological status as promulgated via woodworking forums? Slainte.
RJFurniture
"I believe you're incorrect fg-- I suspect you're getting your knickers twisted over the wrong issue. Like Howie, I'm familiar with cutting aluminium and other non-ferrous metals such as brass in sheet, tube and bar stock form with carbide tipped circular sawblades. For that matter I cut these materials with HSS blades before the time of carbide tipped tools being all pervasive.
Similarly I've been using non-carbide and carbide tipped router bits for cutting aluminium and other non-ferrous metals, but admittedly I've only been doing this on and off since about 1975.
Perhaps the 'sainted' and often allegedly 'infallible' Forrest made a sawblade with a badly brazed on tooth or two and owe the unfortunate user a free brazing job?"
Sgian, One would infer that you are saying an aluminum pushstick is just fine since carbide cuts aluminum all the time, and, if it's anyone's fault, we should be blaming Forrest? Well, heck, we cut pre-heated steel with carbide all the time, let's make our pushsticks out of that!
To say that you cut aluminum with carbide is one thing when it is properly constrained. This is something else, namely, a poor application for the material, about as safe as making ladders out of MDF. The original poster figured it out in about 2 seconds when he ruined the blade. He won't make that mistake again. Now it is time for Rockler to step up.
Greg
I don't see any arguments there Greg to change my mind. Sure I wouldn't use hard steel, but we're talking soft aluminium. It's amazing how many aluminium cross cut and rip fences inadvertantly get cut with saw blades, and the teeth stay on the blade. Usually the fence is whacked against the blade inadvertantly in an uncontrolled manner.
If it's the 'controlled' manner of the cut you're concerned about how is an inadvertant contact with the spinning blade between a hard wood push stick and an aluminium push stick any different?
And many hard woods are harder than aluminium in the first place and when either ripping or cross cutting them they're inconsistent with embedded knots, grain direction changes, grit, embedded stray metal, etc., whereas aluminium is at least consistent and nice and soft. Slainte.RJFurniture
Sgian,
On many subjects I have found myself in basic agreement with you, but I guess we won't agree here. We'll just have to leave it at that. No hard feelings.
Greg
I'd say you're right Greg. We'll agree to disagree. I must admit I'm not a fan of aly pushsticks, but they have been around for a long while.
I can't really imagine why anybody would actually buy a pushstick of any sort when making a half dozen or so out of ply and other wood scraps takes no more than about 15 minutes.
Still, each to their own. Slainte. RJFurniture
Hi Richard, glad to hear your .02.... I think KayakGreg responded to the general "I use blades/bits to cut metal" when he posted:
As to your comment "An aluminium push stick is just chicken feed to a well made saw" I'm sure this is true if it's presented as described in Greg's post above.
This item is, in my admittedly young woodworking life, the stupidest item I've ever seen marketed by a reputable company, most especially when it is presented as a safety device! An ignorant "newbie" woodworker maybe should know better just by virtue of inate common sense. The owners of a company like Rockler definitely should know better. The idea of a metal push "stick" should have been discarded in its infancy, indeed at the embryonic stage.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
fg, you're not saying anything to convince me. Home made aluminium push sticks in various forms have been around for a long time-- since the 1970's at least which is when I first saw them, which coincides with when I started working wood for a living, so they'd probably been around long before that too.
It just took a smart company like Rockler to stick a fancy handle on a bit of birds mouth aly bar and sell them at a profit to ready buyers. (Incidentally, they could improve their design by making the blade a flat S shape so that the handle would be roughly parallel with the saw table in use.) As I said to Greg, many hard woods are far harder and very much more inconsistent than aluminium to cut and the sawblades have been handling those problems for years.
It still sounds like there may have been a dodgily brazed tooth to me, but I must admit I haven't gone to the original thread at whatever forum it was to check it out-- I'm not much into straying far from the three or so woodworking forums I already do visit. Slainte.RJFurniture
Richard,
Won't argue with you regarding the use of aluminum push sticks being around for a long time, it's new to me though, but you have spent more time with woodworking than I have.
One thing is for sure, Aluminum will put much more stress on your blade than wood, by a loooooooong shot.
Just compare the properties of your typical Aluminum, with Sugar Maple.
Density
Alu = 2700 kg/m3, Maple = 750kg/m3
Elastic modulus
Alu = 74Gpa, Maple = 13Gpa
Tensile strength
Alu = 400Mpa, Maple = 54Mpa.
In conclusion, what this means is that the weight of the grains in Aluminum that you are fracturing and accelerating from standstill to high velocity is almost 4 times magnified, compared to doing the same thing with wood fibers. The way the grains deflect, prior to shearing is almost 6 times, that compared to wood fibers. And finally, to shear the Alu grains from each other takes almost 7 times the force, compared to wood fibers.
No surprise to me, that the carbide tooth went flying.
Your tool steel blade may be a better idea, as I think that the brazing alloy, is actually weaker than Aluminum, but I have not referenced this, as I have to run. If this is correct though it means the carbide teeth will part company before the Aluminm does.
Apologies for the metric units on this forum, but I was educated under ISO and it's what I know best.
Edited 5/4/2005 11:56 pm ET by Jellyrug
No problem here with the metric stuff Jellyrug. I'm not a Yank stuck in the Imperial Dark Ages, so metric comes naturally, ha, ha.
Anyway, this is a topic that I think doesn't really warrant too much effort. It's just a bloody push stick fer Gawd's sake, and push sticks are a P.O.P (piece of pish) to make out of a bit of scrap, so why the hell anyone would buy one in the first places mystifies me a bit. Slainte.
RJFurniture
Edited 5/12/2005 4:49 pm ET by Sgian Dubh
LOL,
Ya...
As they say, worry about the things that really matter.
Why have you started off your last post with LOL? Am I missing something here? Refer to post #63.
Mookaroid,
Not quite sure I understand your question, but I'll try anyway......
I believe Richard's post was somewhat humorous, in terms of the way it was written and also, we have been chasing "feathers" here. Why bother about aluminum push sticks, if you can rip several wooden ones in minutes?
Your post "63" I guess has the same relevance.
I'm with you on this. I've been reading this from the start. I cannot belive the things people are saying. I just bought two of the Rockler safety kits because I needed the push blocks. I like the featherboard. The pushstick is a little shappy, but cheap aluminum ps's have been around forever. I mainly use large 3/4 ply ones, but on newer tablesaws with stock guards the large wooden ones don't fit with small rips. I find it handy now and again. We used to use icepicks before the other ones.
Now the meat - A new blade - no way!
Rockler take it off the market, No. Aluminum pushsticks have been woodworking longer than some of the posters on this thread, including me. I'm sure some people prefer them.
Forrest replace/repair the blade? Why, Its now a 10" 39 Tooth Blade, pay the few bucks to get it fixed when it dulls.
Final thought - we are responsible for the choices we make as woodworkers, if your unifence was off 1/8 because you failed to set it properly, should delta pay you for your wood that was miscut?Blades lose teeth, pushsticks get cut, Let's not lynch someone over a blade, its not a finger!!!
Well, I'd be happier than 40 dead hawgs in the sunshine if this so-called push stick were taken and fitted very carefully where it fits best-c'mon folks ,60 plus pists on a daft thing like that?
As a matter of (little) interest, my WOODen push stick sees very little use , as I'd rather see as little as possible of the blade projecting from the work piece.
Nobody can say I don't read every post.
just another 2 cents. I actually have aluminum pushsticks. In fact I've had them for about 7 years. I use them, there thin and ridged. I've zinged them on the blade a few times with no problems at all. Once I didn't even realize I did it until I looked at the push stick. I doubt that a normally used aluminum push stick would cause carbide tooth to chip off. I've worked in a shop where I was cutting huge beams made of aluminum and never had a problem with a blade. There could be some other answer. I've seen the picture of the sticks in question and it looks like strange damage for normal use. But whatever, what do I know, I have and use aluminum push sticks so I must be an idiot according to you guys.
After reading that some felt a controlled cut through aluminum with a carbide blade would not result in damage to the teeth, I decided to put the theory to test. On the weekend I pulled out a crappy $10 blade and put it on the TS. I had some aluminum T-slot extrusion and cross cut it at a very slow feed rate.
After the controled cut on two peices of extrusion six teeth were chipped.
This was a 10" 24 Tooth blade, not exactly ideal for cutting metal (I'd imagine that more teeth would be much better.)
I've got a good blade cover and used all the appropriate safety gear. Obviously you don't want to take chances with flying carbide.
One more vote for metal + carbide = bad.
AE
Amen,
I believe one can cut Aluminum with a carbide blade, provided the blade has been designed and manufactured for this purpose. Using a normal blade, designed for woodwork, compares to playing roulette.
All you have to do is read the blade or packaging. Most cross cut blades say they can cut soft metals. I know that a couple of my blades can cut metal. I'd never do it though. HD and Lowes sell carbide metal cutting blades.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I understand Rockler is changing their push stick. The thread "Sawstop Save Link" highlights another reason they need to change it. The Sawstop determines when to do an emergency stop by applying an electrical (RF) field to the blade. A circuit senses when the blade contacts a conductor (human body or Oscar Mayer hot dog) and activates the brake cartridge. Now consider a push stick. Normally they are made of wood (a non-conductor). When the blade hits it it saws right through it just like we expect it to. However the Rockler aluminum push stick would be an excellent conductor. When it touches the blade - BLAM - emergency shut down. The blade is ruined and the brake cartridge needs to be replaced. That is going to cost someone about $200. Since Rockler has advertised the push stick will not damage the saw, I would expect them to be liable. Perhaps the Sawstop played a part in their decision to change materials.
George
"Perhaps the Sawstop played a part in their decision to change materials." I doubt it. Based on the postings at the original forum, where the Rockler representative participated, there's no indication they thought anything was amiss until this hoo-hah was brought to their attention.
Yours is an excellent point, though, and you certainly could throw it into the mix by sending an email through the Rockler web site. I have a question about it: the handle of the aluminum push stick is plastic. Would the PS (or POS, depending on perspective) have to touch the saw table and the blade simultaneously to trigger the Saw Stop brake?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
A good question for the SS people. Post your question via their web site and you'll get an answer in a heartbeat...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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MEtod,
A few weeks ago, I alerted the president of Saw Stop to a Tablesaw thread on Tool Talk. Steve Gass, President of SawStop quickly joined the thread. I don't know if anyone from SS regularly reads the groups however.
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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