Replies

1. 
   Ricky_Yu | Dec 27, 2003 12:10pm | #1

   The major advantage of a hook-and-loop disc is that when you remove one from your sander and then put it back on later, you don't have to worry about adhesive contamination like you would with the psa discs. Psa discs often lose their stickiness while the sanding side still has plenty of life remaining. Hook-and-loop discs can cost twice as much as psa's, but it's well worth it since I usually get at least double if not many times more use out of them.

2. 
   YesMaam27577 | Dec 27, 2003 12:12pm | #2

   PSA sandpaper is usually a bit less expensive than the velcro stuff.

   But when you  take a PSA sheet off of the sander, it's almost impossible to keep the adhesive clean enough to put it back on later. So, you end up wasting a lot of sheets.

   I believe that the velcro is the better choice.

   Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
3. 
   USANigel | Dec 27, 2003 05:14pm | #3

   hook and loop. Psa will have you looking for a kit to make it hook and loop!

4. 
   JeffKurtz | Dec 27, 2003 05:17pm | #4

   I agree with what advice has been given to you thus far.  Would just add that on PSA set-ups you'll also need to remove the excess adhesive and contaminants from the sander's platen regularly.  (Every couple changes.)  Hook & loop really is the only way to go.

   BTW, you may want to check the archives here for some recommendations on sander brands/models.  Regardless of which brand you choose, do be sure you can hook up dust collection to it.  My Bosch has one of those little canisters and filters which work great - for about 2 minutes.  Not very practical.

   Jeff

5. 
   rslatm | Dec 27, 2003 05:40pm | #5

   We prefer the PSA in our commercial mill shop. Best value for our money we found at least for us. We have several sanders so we can just change sanders instead of switching paper.

   http://www.industrialabrasives.com is where we buy our sandpaper.

   Sometimes I sand metal and there are different hardness pads available for PSA paper. Sometimes I need a stiff pad and the H&L has more give which might be an issue at times. You can always switch to another style pad to see if H&L or PSA works best for you.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/28/2003 6:17:45 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork

6. 
   CharlieP | Dec 27, 2003 05:52pm | #6

   I agree with the several posts that suggest Hook and Loop is the best way to go outside a high volume commercial operation. 

   I have several ROS. 

   • An early unit without dust collection that I never use
   • A cheap Ryobi unit with dust distribution.  The bag is so small and open that it spreads dust better than collecting it.  Never have to empty the bag.  Never use the sander, either.  Wasted $29
   • Two Makita BO5021 units that I bought based on recommendations in a web discussion group.  Loved the first unit so much that I bought a second so that two of us could be sanding at the same time, or so I could use different grits without changing paper.  Dust collection is excellent but not perfect. 

   I liked the Makita so much that I also bought the same unit as a gift for my brother. 

   I rarely use the slower speeds so you could save some by choosing the model without variable speed.

7. 
   Tao | Dec 27, 2003 07:24pm | #7

   I have both.

   The H&L is softer and has more give, so it's follows contours better, but it's not as good as PSA for flattening small defects.

   The PSA back I have is harder and seems a little more aggressive.  Never had much of a problem with adhesive buildup or contamination.  I leave a disc on the sander while it's not being used, and usually change discs while they are warm from use.  I clean the pad occasionally when a disc sticks or when I notice a little buildup.

   I tested a couple of brands of PSA discs, and after 10 minutes' sanding they are cutting only half as fast as new, so that's all the longer I use them.  At a dollar a minute shop time, it's silly to waste dollars' worth of tme to save a 15 cent sanding disk.  Haven't tested H&L disks yet.  Might make an interesting article.

   Hooking a ROS up to a shop vac definitely makes a difference in performance.

   Michael R.

1. 
   Kevin | Dec 28, 2003 08:45pm | #13

   I have both H&L and adhesive-backed paper set ups also (at work) and I too see some advantages to using one over the other in certain situations. I actually don't like the H&L sandpaper discs. What I use are the Mirka H&L mesh abrasives. I absolutely LOVE them! The only time I really prefer using the adhesive backed paper is when I have to sand metal. For whatever reason, the Mirka mesh abrasives don't stand up to sanding metal. Other than that they are fantastic and far outlast the adhesive backed paper. On some Red Oak where my boss and I tried the two abrasives side by side we found that one Mirka disc (240 grit) would last as long as four adhesive backed 220 grit paper discs.

   I should point out that I only use pneumatic random orbital sanders with 6" discs. They just sand better IMHO. I suspect that it is partially due to a slightly wider random orbit sand scratch pattern. Although I will say that the variable speed is an absolute must as far as I'm concerned. Just for prepping wood I would agree with some of the other posters here that the higher speeds are just about all one really needs. But, for sanding existing paint - whether it be scuffing for adhesion or sanding to remove it - lower speeds can be a huge advantage because many paints will get hot at the higher speeds and simply begin to gum up rather than sand off. Keeping the speed down aids in keeping the heat level down so that the abrasive continues to cut.

   My ROS brand of choice is Dynabrade. I know many painters who consider the Dynabrade pneumatic sanders to be the best of the best. There are other decent brands out there though if cost is a greater factor.

   Regards,

   Kevin

   The Independent Voter.com

   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

1. 
   Sphere | Dec 29, 2003 01:55am | #14

   I am with the PSA crowd..I fold the used disc in half, and have scads of hand sanding pcs.  I have not been able to justify the cost of H&L.

8. 
   RANGERP75R | Dec 27, 2003 08:31pm | #8

   Monte

   H & L!

   sarge..jt

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

9. 
   backwoodsguy | Dec 27, 2003 09:43pm | #9

   Ridgid just came out with a ROS with both an H&L and a PSA pad included. I picked one up but haven't used it extensively enough to tell how it compares to my Bosh and PC sanders.

   If you only have one sander it would be great to have both pads. The psa are much cheaper and i just switch sanders when I change grits. I do tend to use the Psa with the more aggressive grits since I don't change the disks as quick as I do for the finer ones.

   The Ridgid does have some nice features beside the dual pads....long cord and  actually seems to be a soft start motor.

   Good luck!  

1. 
   milanuk | Dec 27, 2003 11:24pm | #10

   Thanks for the replies so far. Just to add a little fuel to the fire, the one person I've talked to in the flesh about sanders seemed to prefer the PSA, but he is also kind of what would be considered a commercial operation (custom homebuilder over on the Seattle coast, most of his work starts at $750k on up). He felt he'd had problems w/ the H&L pads coming loose at the edges before they were used up, or the material on the sander pad getting messed up and then not holding the abrasive pad properly. This combined w/ the price difference btwn the pads led him back to PSA. Has anyone else had this kind of experience, or was his just kind of a fluke, or something not applicable to normal weekend woodworking/ home improvement users?

   Also, I'd looked at a couple Ridgid ROS in the new HD the other day... seemed fairly nice. Anyone had a chance to use them enough to get a feel for whether they are good or not?

   TIA,

   Monte

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Dec 28, 2003 01:55am | #11

   Monte

      The slight over-lap of sand-paper on the pad will shred if you run it up against an adjoining surface or don't apply proper balanced pressure if the pad is partially off the surface of the stock being sanded.

      I would deem his problem as he and his folks are probably in  a hurry to collect the $750k pay-check. Once you adapt to the H&L (which doesn't require long), you won't experience those problems. At least that's my experience.

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   Sprucegum | Dec 28, 2003 05:43am | #12

   I have H&L on my Bosch ROS. The pads would rip right off if I pressed too hard or used a high speed. I finally replaced the loops on the sander , and now pay more attention to what I am doing - so far so good.

   With a light touch and a slow speed the discs (Klingspor) last forever , and I have lots of time(hobby).It's not what you chew, it's how you chew it

10. 
    VeniciaL | Dec 29, 2003 02:08am | #15

    Just to add one more . . .

    I have both H&L and PSA pads for my Porter Cable 5" 333 variable speed ROS. I much prefer the H&L. They last MUCH longer, seem to give better cushioning, and in my hand a flatter finished surface. The longevity of the disks is amazing. They do not cause any problems if the edge of the disk comes in contact with an adjacent obstruction.

    I highly recommend Klingspor (www.klingspor.com). Any company that can poke fun at themselves by calling their product "Klingons" is OK!

    VL