Hi folks,
I’m thinking about getting a router and need some opinions about what’s best.
I’ve heard that Scheer makes excellent routers and would like to know if there’s anyone who has experiences with them. I’m particularly interested in the HM 9.
The small Festool and the DW 621 look great too – which one do you prefer and why?
Do you think a guide rail is an important accessory?
Thanks for your input!
Regards,
Christian
Replies
The new Milwaukee 5616-21 2-1/4 HP BodyGrip Router rocks! Best router I've ever wrestled with.
As Molten says, the new Milwaukee is knockin' 'em dead. Speaking to the question of a guide rail (fence), yes I'd say it's an important accessory over the long haul. I have one for both my fixed-based PC and plunge PC, and it is a joy to use. Beats the heck out of messing around with clamping a piece of stock to the workpiece.
If you do a search over the last 1 or 2 months, you'll come up with another router discussion, and the Milwaukee comes up in that one.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You're in England perhaps?
Festool is great stuff.
Excellent quality to the finest detail. Their range of accessories is good and relevant. I got some Festool tools my self - not the router unfortunately - and they are state of the art - best European quality (German) actually made for the professional marked, but accessible it you got the $$$. Pricey but worth it...
Ole .... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....
Hi folks,
thanks for your comments. I'm not from England, I'm from Austria.I haven't yet thought about the Milwaukee, I don't even know if and where it's available. Festool is rather popular here, I have a Festool ROS, vac and my dad has the great cordless drill with the attachments. Really good stuff. Scheer is also from Germany and has an excellent reputation but they are even more expensive than the Festool's.
http://anna-mariakoch.de/shop/ is the link to a online shop for Scheer. "Oberfräsen" is the German word for router.
Regards,
Christian
Christian,
I had never heard of Scheer which is what made me think that you were writing from somewhere in Europe. Your command of English was so natural that I guessed you were from England.
I suspect, from my limited experience, that the majority of the tools that are available here, in North America, won't be available to you.
Some routers are small and lightweight, like a sports car, while others are real beasts. While most routers will adapt to any job to some degree, the type of work you expect to do would greatly influence what I or others might recommend, so a little more info on what you plan to use them for would be helpful.
John W.
Hi John,
thanks for your response.
I was thinking about getting a router in the Dewalt 621 "class" - which means to me about 1000 Watt and a 8 mm collet. I'd like to use it for "normal" stuff, building cabinets and such things.I don't know if PC and Milwaukee (a part of the Atlas Copco company) are available here but I can get Bosch, Festool, Dewalt, Makita, Hitachi, Metabo ....
The Scheer isn't very popular here either but it said to be excellent and extremely expensive. The HM 9 which I'd like costs about 600 Euro.
I think you can buy Scheer tools from http://www.rtbyrnes.com/ in the USA.
Regards,
Christian
Bosch 1617 EVS kit with plunge and fixed base.
Have owned P-C and DW and like the 1617 more than either. The 2 1/4 hp is very hearty, but the tool feels and handles like a comfortable, low HP tool. Bosch engineering and worksmanship seal the deal for me.
You can buy from Amazon for $229, including free edge guide. Was also surprised by yet another discount from Amazon... I bought a Panasonic 15.6 from them and they sent me a catalog with an offer to take $25 off any tool in the catalog >$199. That means a Bosch kit could be hand for $204 -- ridiculous price
BW
Christian-
Although John is correct that the majority of tools probably aren't available on both sides of the Atlantic, thanks to the wonders of globalization, a great many tools are available both in North America and in Europe. I know that Porter Cable markets several tools here in the US (mainly right angle grinders, I think) that are marketed in Europe under the Flex label. A couple of the routers that we would identify as DeWalt tools were originally made under the Elu flag. Milwaukee does have a European counterpart. Quite a few of their cordless drills are made in Germany. Mine says made in Germany right on the side. I suspect if you were to go to their website, you might recognize a few of them as being originally something other than Milwaukee. I don't know exactly who makes them, although I do know that there was some sort of AEG/Milwaukee relationship several years ago. Whether that continues today, I do not know. If you see something that you find particularly interesting, shoot an email to the company in question. They just might tell you that it's marketed under a different label in Europe and can be easily purchased locally.
Miles
Edited 7/3/2003 8:50:56 PM ET by Miles
Hi Miles,
thanks for your comments.
I checked the German Milwaukee Website and found out that they offer only one router. I think Milwaukee and AEG belong to the Atlas Copco company. As far as I know Atlas Copco will sell their professional tools under the Milwaukee label in Europe, too.
I know that many Dewalt tools were made by Elu and wish Elu still would be available. I'm not sure but I think the Elu OF 97 was made in Switzerland, the Dewalt 621 is now made in CZ. This doesn't make a good impression on me.
My vote will probably go to the Festool OF. I already have some Festool's and I'm contemplating some more - the saw - in future.
Regards,
Christian
Christian
I just mounted a Milwaukee 3 1/2 HP (15 amp) under my router table. It has a built on height adjuster you can use to adjust height above the table. It's a work-horse.
I have the DW 621 plunge I use for free-hand plunge cuts. I don't consider it a good under-table mount. Too difficult to get to the height adjuster and is a bear to change bits mounted in the table. Bit changes are excellent above table an it has excellent micro height adjustment. The plunge mechanizm is the smoothest on the market. It's a kick-off of the Elu after the company merged with DW.
I also have the Bosch 1617 EVS fixed base. Light, smooth and feels good free-handing. It also makes a fairly good table mount. I had it mounted till the big production Milwaukee 5625 replaced it. I use it free-hand for straight cuts.
Fences are great with bits that do not have built on bearings.
If I were going to buy one reasonably priced router, I would get the Bosch plunge-fixed base kit. Excellent value here in U.S. and you have the advantage of both fixed base and plunge in one set-up. You will find times the plunge is an absolute necessity. Kill two birds with one stone and do it for one price. A reasonable one at that. ha..ha..
Good luck with the decision...
sarge..jt
If I'm not mistaken, European electricity is not 110 v. A.C. If so, that would limit choice of "American" routers to only those marketed to Europe.(?)
Jeff
[Jamie nosing in here]: The companies will modify tools for the market. For instance, we can get the Festool routers over here, 110v.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Have to admit that the mischievous little boy still inside me would really get a kick out of seeing a 110v router plugged into a 400v line. Cool.
Jeff
Jeff, believe me it is not a pretty site. I plugged my Hilti Drill into a 550 volt line. I t reveved to about what seemed like a million RPM before I managed to drop it, believe me, it was not a pretty site, another lesson learned and an expensive one at that.
I'm mystified how anyone could really do this. Each voltage (and often amperage) has unique plugs that just don't fit each other without hankypanky on the user's part.
By the way, EU electricity is 220 volts/50 cycles for normal household current. We're 110/60 cycles. Lots of european stuff is available in USA voltage because we just plain buy a lot of stuff. Little USA stuff is available in european voltages because they are really a small market already well served. Some adaptors are available.
Me, I kind of like the USA and I'll stay here. I'm sure the EU folks feel pretty much the same way about their own home!
It's correct we have 230 V and 400 V here.
I haven't yet discovered the advantage and feature of a fixed base router, I don't even know what this means.Does it mean that these routers don't have a plung mechanism?Doesn't sound very practical to me. I don't think there are any fixed base routers available in Europe, apart from small edge routers.
Regards,
Christian
Christian
There was a time that a fxed base was considered better for a table mount. The router had less chance of falling from the housing. Also, the fixed base is somewhat easier to use on a stright routing situation, as their are fewer control handles to get in the way. That means less chance of bumping something accidentally and square going to round without user approval. With the advance in locking mechanizms on the newer routers, this has changed considerably. This is my personal opinion. Everyone has one. ha..ha..
As I stated, if I were limited to one router set-up, I would go with the Bosch plunge-fixed base kit. Here's why. I could mount the fixed base to the insert plate on a router table permanently. The plunge base would be used for free-hand plunge and regular free-hand.
The advantage of the kit is the motor slides out of both the plunge and fixed base with ease. You can leave the fixed base mounted to the table without having to un-bolt it when you would be using it for free-hand. Just a quick change of the one motor between bases gives you access to both free-hand and table routing. Saves time, saves effort.
If you will never consider a table or have a shaper, this becomes irrevelant. A table is great advantage if you do a lot of routing. As an example, I set mine up in about 3 minutes recently to assist a neighbor cut moldings for his home renovation. We set up the router, ran approximately 100 meters of hard-wood through the table in about 30 minutes. Perfect cuts with little effort. If we had been using the router free-hand, each piece of 5 meter long stock would have to have been clamped. With that lenght, each piece would have to be multi- clamped. Unless you have a 5 meter long work-bench. ha..ha..
Just a few thoughts for you to consider. I know you may see things through a different set of eyes. Hopefully this will give you some things to consider so you can form an over-all picture of what you want to be capable of..
Best of luck, whatever you decide...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
thanks for you interesting response. I know that shopmade router tables are very popular in the USA but in Austria or Germany you would have difficulties getting the hardware (base, router lifts,...) as shopmade tables haven't reached this level of popularity here. Festool offers (not in the USA) a system called Basis Plus. This is a table with different bases for routers, the jigsaw, the ATF. I don't know if I ever buy this system but this might be an interesting option instead of a router table.I checked the German and the USA Bosch website and the combo pack is not available in Germany/Austria. The Bosch plunge routers seem to be largely the same in the USA and in Germany/Austria.
Regards,
Christian
Christian
Sounds like someone is missing a job opportunity here. It seems that smuggling WW tools into Europe would be very lucrative. I think I will get out the old 4 meter fishing boat and check for leaks. I'll need to get the business cards printed up also. ha..ha..
Highest Regards...
sarge..jt
The link you supply is phoney. It's some sort of Asian porn site. DO NOT CLICK
As mentioned above, Milwaukee may not be available in Europe. That wouldn't bother me a bit if the Festool was the obvious alternative! Everything I've read indicates they are superb tools.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Have had the best of luck with the 621.
Hi RJT,
I can provide you with quite a number of Euro WW sites.
What are you interested in - tools, discussions, shops, ...?
Do you speak German?
Here are some links:
Private pages:
http://www.holzwerken.de/ extremely large website with lots of links to German and English websites, focus on Neander
http://www.b-cremer.de/ German hobby woodworker
http://www.hirnholz.gmxhome.de his son
http://www.altes-handwerkzeug.de hobby woodworker and tool collecter
http://www.geduldundspucke.de/ another hobby woodworker
http://mitglied.lycos.de/Techkon/Holz/messing_block_plane.htm wonderful shopmade planes
Shops:
http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/ or http://www.fine-tools.com/ excellent online shop
For more shops check the links http://www.holwerken.de
Forums:
http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl great Neander forum
http://145.253.206.134/phorum/list.php?f=4 forum for hobbyist
http://www.werkzeug-home.de/cgi1/index.html tools
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=de.rec.heimwerken newsgroup
http://www.werkzeugforum.de/ internet platform with different forums and more information
http://www.woodworker.de/linktree/tree/ftexample.html professional woodworkers
Generally I prefer the English forums because there's much more activity than on German sites, apart form the German Neander forum which I consider to be the best of all German forums I know.
Stationary tools:
http://www.altendorf.de/ Altendorf saws
http://www.buetfering.de/cms/ sanding machines
http://www.felder-group.com/ Felder, Hammer, Format 4
http://www.hoefer-maschinen.com/ presses, saws
http://www.langzauner.at/ sanding
http://www.otto-martin.de/ saws, planers, shapers, ...
http://www.schelling.com/ just found this link, not familiar with these machines
http://www.striebig.com/ panel saws
http://www.panhans.com/index.html panel saws, ....
http://www.holzschleifmaschine.de/ sanding
http://www.ruwi-online.de/ innovative routing system
http://www.kity-maschinen.de/profi7.htm
http://www.hess-maschinenbau.de/
http://www.holzmann-maschinen.at/general/indexselection.htm
http://www.holzbearbeitung.at
http://www.kuendig.ch/ch/index.htm
http://www.hoefer-maschinen.at/html/start.htm
http://www.profimaschinen.de/frame/frame.htm
http://www.rehnen.de/german/products/special/spezialm.htm
http://www.hegner-gmbh.com/TD_TBS%20500.htm
http://www.wegoma-holz.de/
http://www.cf-scheer.de/
CNC tools (I'm notfamiliar with this stuff)
http://www.handl.at/
http://www.cms.it/
http://www.essetre.com/
http://www.hobema.com/
http://www.ima.de/
http://www.homag.com/
http://www.scmgroupd.de/
http://www.schmalz.de/
http://www.maka.com/
Hinges, ...
http://www.blum.at/
http://www.grass.at
http://www.hawa.ch/
http://www.haefele.de/
http://www.hettich.com/
http://www.hewi.de/
http://www.loft1.de/
http://www.siro.at/
Power tools (only some which I consider to be "upper class" or which are not so famous in the US):
http://www.festool.de/ Festool Germany, excellent tools
http://www.mafell.de/
http://www.duss.de/index.html
http://www.hilti.de/
http://www.fein.de
http://www.metabo.de/
http://www.kress-elektrik.de/
Router and drill bits:
http://www.edessoe.de/
http://www.famag.com/
http://www.fisch-tools.com/
http://iwo-tools.de/
http://www.kwo.de/
http://www.leitz.de/index1.mb1?mb_f020_id=Khe887HxQO2jaHaaaL7&rubrik=vor&artnr=&mb_v301_ch=c06dc&flashversion=6&bildschirmaufloesung=1024
Hope this helps.
If you have and special questions feel free to ask.
Regards,
Christian
You can get some of the routertable hardware from online shops inside the EU.
http://www.axminster.co.uk
http://www.diytools.com
Another option is to buy from USA based online shops. But you will have to include heavy shipping costs and taxes when your package goes through customs !! I have tried it a few times.
What Festool saw are you planning to buy ? I got the Precisio CB-70 EB, it's a great saw you will not go wrong getting one !
Sadly it seems that we in Europe suffers from the lack of proper quality tools and some kinds of tools are not available at all ex. fixed base routers. I even called Bosch's European headquarters hearing if there would be any possibility of them making some of their products on the American marked accessible to us in Europe, sorry to say - it had no interest. The marked for that kind of specialized tools is not big enough, woodworking is not something you see among ordinary non-professional people in Europe. The few of us interested have a hard time getting god quality handtools. Most powertools is no problem, several good quality brands - Festool, Metabo, Bosch, Elu etc. and Makita and Dewalt is available, but not fixedbased routers.
But American powertools is no good. We have (1-phase) 230 V or (3-phase) 400 V all 50 Hz so that is not an option.
Some more links for tools within the EU
http://www.uktoolshop.com
http://www.toolman.co.uk
Ole.... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....
Hi Ole,
thanks for the information.
I'm thinking about getting the Festool plunge saw - TS 55 is the number. And as I could use its guide rails I want the Festool router too.
I think it depends on where you live. I know some American woodworkers who envy us Altendorf, Martin, some Festools which are not available in the US, some Mafell tools...One hobby woodworker mentioned that there seem to be more top quality power tools in Europe than in the USA.And I envy the Americans Lie Nielsen, Starrett, Clark and Williams, router bases, ... and the low prices.
Is the Precisio your only table saw or do you have another larger table saw?
The Precisio is another example of a tool which you can't get in the US.
All in all we could all be pretty satisfied with what's being offered. I'll always find a tool I don't have and want.
Regards,
Christian
Christian....
Trend may have the router accessories that you're looking for.. No fixed base routers.. but a good choice of machinery and accessories...
When I built my router table I used one of their insert plates and NVR switch... no cause for complaint with either....
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/homepage2003/
Hi Christian !
I wanted a Festool plunge saw for a long time - They are very nice and with the guiderail you can make really good precision cuts. I got a Bosch saw with guiderail and one of their 2HP routers which also adapts to their guiderail. So I could not justify the cost, even though I not happy with the Bosch guiderailsystem it lacks precision and repeatability
Yes the Precisio is my only tablesaw. I don't do woodworking for a living - but as my major hobby. If I got room and money for a big tablesaw I might consider it. The Precisio outperforms all other benchtopsaw's I have seen. It stands rocksolid on my concrete floor (comes with it own stand), doesn't vibrate, Electronic adjustable constantspeed 3HP motor, 70 mm height of cut, dustextraction etc. The tilt is very precise.
You are right on the quality of powertools. There are several good makers of quality powertools in Europe, but they are expensive. Like you I miss fixedbased routers and routerlifts. You can get the JessEm Rout-R-lift - well suited for plungerouters at http://www.Axminster.co.uk The sell it with the name Axminster on it instead of JessEm. It is the same product, I called JessEm and the confirmed it was the Rout-R-lift. The only other difference is that is doesn't come predrilled.
Concerning handtools - you are able to find good quality European tools. Chisels - you got "two-cherries" and "Robert Sorby" among others. Planes I like "Clifton" available at Axminster and http://www.uktoolshop.com. I think Clifton planes are close to or maybe equal to Lie Nielsen. You can buy some Lie-Nielsen planes at Axminster. Buying them inside the EU reduces shipping cost and eliminates customs. Someday I will get a Lie-Nielsen to try them out. Handsaw's I find PAX to be OK.
Ole.... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....
Hi Mike, hi Ole,
thanks for the address of Trend. I've heard about this company.
I don't know when I'll buy a plunge saw but I'll certainly buy the Festool. I also like the Mafell but Bosch doesn't convince me. For example, I need adapters for the dust collection on Bosch, they don't offer that many rails and accessories, don't have the systainer ...Bosch might make good tools but Festool makes a tool system.
The Festool saws have an excellent reputation here and you'll hardly find something from a different brand in this category - maybe Mafell and some years ago HolzHer (HolzHer is no longer available).
In Germany and Austria we use primarily woodies. I have some ECE Primus planes which I like a lot. http://www.ecemmerich.de Stubai chisels are also good - Stubai is an Austrian company.http://www.fine-tools.com/ is an excellent German online shop which offers hand tools from all over the world.
Regards,
Christian
Isn’t it every woodworker’s dream to build a beautiful, accurate, and predetermined cut or flawless milling panel of wood that will become a piece of the art for a family home, or a bendable plastic, or making outstanding industrial carvings? Well, the best CNC router is here to make that dream a reality.
A CNC wood router, or a computer numerical control router, is an important aspect of any workshop or hardware production facility. Wood CNC routers can be used for sculpting, craving, or simply achieving a pleasant cut with your woodwork. Makers can benefit greatly from the best cnc router if they have the appropriate tool head. Durability, accuracy, and simplicity are factors that determine the selection of the best CNC router kit for you. CNC routers can be used in a small home woodwork shop, as a DIY CNC Machine, or even as a router kit for big woodwork industries. Hence, providing multiple solutions to all your woodwork problems.
Did they have cnc routers in 2003?
Wow, Glad happy that Christian finally got an answer to his router problems. 2022 - 2003, 20 years! But somehow he knew that a CNC router would solve all of his problems even though they were not even invented yet. I hope all those years he toiled with chisels, gouges, and card profile scrapers were worth the wait. At least he is now very good with hand tools, not a bad thing.
Now he has to learn programming languages.
thanks
Wow. Unless jasminepeak is a salesperson I am totally confused.
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