A couple of questions:
Who makes good bits for a decent price?
Should I buy bits on an as needed basis or should I buy a starter kit?
Thanks,
Chuck
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Replies
Ahhhh, Charles, you've definitely hit on a controversial topic, LOL, with your "inexpensive set vs. as-needed" question.
As far as good bits at a decent price, depends on how picky you are. A great bit will last you longer, but if you can't afford to buy them, doesn't help you much. Super-cheap bits are worse than a waste of money, IMHO -- they are dangerous. Flying carbide is not your friend.
A decent not-so-expensive brand is MLCS. A reasonably priced very good brand is Whiteside, found at RouterBits.com. You'll hear good-to-great feedback on CMT, Freud, Amana, Infinity, others no doubt. Eagle America would be an interesting place to check out. I've liked the Lee Valley bits I've purchased.
Although I'm very wary of cheap bits, and went the "as it's needed" route when buying bits, if I had it to do over again, I'd buy a set from MLCS just so I had most of the profiles I might need, and then replace the oft-used ones with excellent, more expensive ones. I would never replace an oft-used inexpensive bit with another inexpensive bit. That's a waste.
PS: When it comes to matching-profile bits such as tongue-and-groove, or especially the more complex ones, never go cheap. Get the best you can afford.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/13/2006 11:51 am by forestgirl
I was actually looking at whiteside router bits. I am new to woodworking so what type of set should be looking into as far as the most often used bits.
Regards,
Chuck
Forest Girl hit it on the head. Set vs Individual. Sets are generally less expensive in the long run and I would buy Door Sets( Stile/Rail/Panel raiser/Gluejoint/drawerlock) Cove, Roundover,Chamfer and Straight Sets,These I buy the best I can, Eagle America is my preferance BUT I haven't bought one of those do everything sets and probably won't, there are bits there that you'll probably never use. For short run jobs I pick a midpriced bit individually, For the long haul use, table edges, ogees etc. etc. I still get the best I can. Bargin basemant bits make good fishing sinkers, Like a craftsxxx router makes a good boat anchor.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
That Whiteside set is outstanding quality and is the most commonly used profiles. Hartville might have it on sale.If you choose the "value bit" route instead, I'd look into Holbren.com...comparable quality, great service, usually lower cost.
Chuck, my "do-over" would take a little different approach than some here would take, and get a pretty big general set with alot of different profiles in it. Problem is, I'm not seeing any good candidates right now. Last year, there were some promotions going on around this type of thing. The point being, to get many different profiles at an inexpensive per-bit price, a handy storage box, replace bits as needed with higher quality. That way, I could have tried out an edge-treatment idea without spending $15-$30 to see if it was what I wanted, and be able to grab one when I needed it, not wait 5 days for it to show up in a package.
I'm sure the info you pick up in this thread will help you out, if for no other reason than to steer you away from super-cheap junk. Think carefully before sinking a whole bunch of money into something like a 4- or 5-piece dovetail set, when you'll probably only use one or two of the bits. I dunno,. I'm runnin' out of steam on this, haven't had breakfast yet.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The post above reminded me: you haven't said anything about 1/4" vs. 1/2" Half-inch is the way to go.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Planning on 1/2".Chuck
At work we order bits from McMaster-Carr, I'm not sure of the brand but I believe they are Ondura or something like that, I'll look tomorrow.
Saw
Charles, any decision yet, or did we just muddy the waters? Sorry!
I looked at the 7-piece Whiteside set, which seems to be the only set they market. It'd be nice if it had an ogee or two, but for getting started it would be fine!
For rabbeting, I like the rabbeting sets that have different bearings to get you different depths, including flush, but that can be bought later on down the line. Another set you might want down the line is a plywood set (undersized straight bits).
Let us know what you get!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I just received an email today from Holbren (http://www.holbren.com/home.php) They are now have Whiteside router bits. The have special promotion on a seven piece Whiteside starter set for $77.00 with free shipping.
Thanks, Ordered a 15 Piece set from MLCS.Chuck
Edited 6/26/2006 2:57 pm ET by Charles Wilson
Super-cheap bits are worse than a waste of money, IMHO -- they are dangerous. Flying carbide is not your friend.I agree BUT I'm a man and has MY opinion.. I use them big box bits alot! My final cuts are with my Whitesides on some cuts.. NOT ALL but if I have a match profile..I have a several sets set of them router bits I got fer 50$ each?? 1/2 inch shanks.. I LOVE THEM BITS. But what the heck do I know?Some bits I never use but I use the Hickory Brand and has 24 bits fer the price.. Hard to beat that! And most wood I use is Ash, Hickory, and Purpleheart. and Leporadwood... Ya knows that MEAN CAT with spots!50$ fer the set of 24?
Edited 6/26/2006 2:18 pm by WillGeorge
So, what do you think of the MLCS 15 piece set. That is the one that I ordered. Chuck
Hi Chuck - I started with the 15 Piece set from MLCS. It fit the budget and my need fine at the time....decent quality, free s/h, comparable to Holbren, woodcraft, Woodline, Price Cutter, Grizzly, etc., IMO. After 3-4 years many have dulled alot and I'm now replacing.
Long ago, I had wanted to try the Hickory set, but I couldn't find it with 1/2" shank. Seems now you can get them on-line, maybe then too. I don't necessarily consider Hickory "super-cheap" -- by that I was referring to no-name stuff that shows up on eBay, for intance. "Cheap" referring to not only the cost, but the manufacturing also.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm in agreement with you that the big no-name sets are a great place to start. Then, the ones that get used a lot can always be upgraded to a more durable brand and other profiles can be added as needed.
I'll often run a pass with a cheaper bit and take the final cut with a sharp new bit. The carbides on the cheaper bits don't stay sharp as long, but they are easy to hand sharpen, or at least it doesn't matter if they aren't sharpened perfectly if only used to hog off material.
You're also on spot by recommending the 1/2" shanks. These are perhaps more important with cheaper bits since the shanks are likely to be a lesser quality material. When a 1/4" shank cheapie 1/2" round over broke and flew across the room it made a believer out of me!
For some strange reason I'm just a sucker for inexpensive bits. If there is a half price clearance sale it seems to make sense to stock up, regardless of the quality.
The cheapest of the cheap may be the sets sold by Harbor Freight. Some of their sets are really bad, and some are a step up, although still not real good.
It seems that the quality of the bearings are a good indicator of the rest of the bit and that's the first thing I'll check on no-name dirt cheap sets.
Good routing
A year ago I was reading an article on tooling carbide, written by an engineer working in the mfg. of metal working tools. He said that the binders that hold the carbide together are progressing in leaps and bounds.
Apparently, there are some inexpensive carbides out today that were state of the art not many years ago. The trick seems to be sorting out the cheap from the inexpensive.
I think you might have mis-stated my inclination, there, trout. I am not advocating the use of realllllly cheap no-name bits. I'm more suggesting something like an MLCS set, inexpensive but not super-cheap. If I remember correctly (too tired to go back and check) I cautioned specifically against buying super-cheap junk. I've had one piece of carbide part from a bit, and don't intend to invite another, LOL. There are others besides MLCS, but again, I'm just too sleeeeeeepy. 'niteforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think Infinity gives the biggest bang for the buck in terms of quality vs. price. I use their bits almost exclusively now and remain impressed with their performance.
While I am not a fan of router bit sets, Infinity has an 8-piece "Professional" set (link below) that actually has bits you will use frequently with no duds mixed in. If you are starting a bit collection, this set might be a good start.
http://www.infinitytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=00-113&variation=&aitem=3&mitem=6
Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
A couple of tips"
1) FAQ, no.1 +
2) Router bits
One note on understanding wear & tear.
It is possible & probable that a cutter can be unwittingly destroyed. That could happen whether the operator is experienced or new to the art.
One of my students wasted a respectable cutter inside of 30 seconds and in my face, under relatively ordinary conditions! Dwell killed it, destroyed the end grinding. Now then, the cutter would still side cut but on inside cuts the booger could not side & bottom cut. As such trying to get the tool to excavate, when having a hell of a time bottom cutting, killed the grinding on the flute!
There are many opportunities for this to happen. As such: What an operator regards as a second class cutter may indeed be an acceptable tool in the hands of another. Cutter life is very dependent on technique, travel (feed) and depths (east/west & north/south) of cut.
Routers
My cheap set was a (well intentioned) gift, but it apparentl cost near $100 for the 15 bits. They only have 1/4" shanks on them. As I get to projects and need a certain bit I upgrade.
Most of the bits are still unused. Not for lack of woodworking, rather lack of need. From that perspective I'd go with the separate bits.
Charles,
I went the opposite of other posts here. I purchased a 66 piece set as a base. I buy stile and rail, and tonge and grove etc as needed per job, but the better quality. I like to be able to have a little used profile I may need for a small job on hand in a decent bit, without having to spend $30.00 for it. Plus, with all the diff profiles in the set, I almost always have the bit I am looking for, and I have done some really nice mouldings combining the bits. Just my .02 cents. By the way, the bits have served me very well. The difference is they dont go the distance the better bits do, but then again, I cant remember when I ran a couple hundred board feet through on any of my bits, with exception of purpose built profile sets. check out mcls, woodline, they have the 66 pc sets for good deals. then build as you go according to what you use and make.
joe p
I have bits from obout every major manufacturer out there. I have a small profesional shop, so they get used enough to wear out but it takes a long time.
I haven't found a tremendous difference in wear life or cut quality of any of the more expensive bits. Again I am not running a large production shop so wear is not so obvious to me. I have found CMT to consistantly be lacking. Their door sets never seem to be matched well and required reshimming the cutters, in general their bits have less carbide than others. If you can compaire bits side by side you can see the difference in polishing on some bits. I know that I could see that White Side bits were better polished than Amana. But I doubt it makes much difference. I can't tell anyway. All in all, I think Freud makes the best quality bits for the money. You can get a 3 piece door set for $160 that will preform as well as a Whiteside set for twice the money. I suspect the white side set will last longer between sharpening but a Freud set will make 2 or 3 kitchens worth of doors before needeing a trip to the sharpener shop and I only make about 4 kitchens a year, generally all different profiles, so nothing really wears out.
As far as sets go.... I bought a cheep carbide set (I think it had 24 bits) from Home Depot a few years ago, and I still use some of them now and again. I wore out 3 or 4 of those bits and those are the ones that I use daily. They were all replaced with top of the line bits from reputable manufacturers. I think the set was a good way for me to learn and experiment. I would probably have been better off with a smaller Freud set. Freud offers several smart sets that have a intelegent combination of profiles.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Try these at http://www.holbren.com/home.php
I bought a few of them back in March and they seem to be OK. They are priced right. I would say they were as good as MLCS.
I have a couple of Porter Cable bits and I am not impressed by them.
This set at the Holbren site looks like a good starter set, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
35 bits, all 1/2 inch shanks for $79.00 and free shipping.
I think it would be an excellent starter set.
I'm a CMT guy I've had the best luck with their products.
I also buy individual as some members have posted there are some bits you'll never use.
Stay away (if you can) from 1/4 shafts, the flex. 1/2" or at the least 8mm (buy the adabtor it's cheap) shanks and make sure you tight them up good.
I ruined an nice piece because the 1/4" shaft started to walk out of the collet as I moved down the board and the cut was deeper on one end than the other.
Only two things money can't buy, True Love and Home Grown Tomatoes...Misty River Band
I bought a starter set from Amazon, and haven't regretted it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000ASDEN/qid=1150479458/sr=8-3/ref=pd_bbs_3/002-4350609-9497608?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013
Frank and "All": The Hickory set looks like a good starter set. I had eyed it in the big box stores a few years ago, the the big boxes only carry 1/4" shaft, which I really don't like. Nice to see you can get a 1/2" shaft somewhere!
I have the Hickory brad-point drill bit set and it has far outstripped my expectations! Sharp, extensive selection of sizes, great carrying case. I haven't worn any out yet (haven't tried, LOL) but did break one. Re-ordered from Lee Valley or someone.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I went the way of purchasing better bits as I needed them but recently puchased a set of Hickory bits from Amazon(they have received good reviews) at the time they were on sale for like $30 for a 24 piece set. I've been very pleased with flexibility of having a variety of profiles that you can sort of match up first hand to a molding you want to make. I've been very surprised by the quality of these bits, the 3/4 straight bit from the set is seems better constructed (more carbide surface)than the equivalant Freud bit I purchased at almost the cost of the set.
Hickory also makes a set of forstner bits and a set of brad points that have been very good.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
First do you have a 1/2" or a 1/4" router, that goes a long way in making your decission. Next, what are your plans for this router. I have both sizes, and try to buy 1/2" bits when ever possible. they are safer to use. As for the cost... you get what you pay for. By the why I've bought cheap ones and they've only last that one project so please choose wisely
"First do you have a 1/2" or a 1/4" router....?" Or both (collets). Sorry, I couldn't resist.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have "both" I'm very talented...........
Yes, you usually get what you pay for.
But another decision in considering weather buying cheap bits verses more expensive bits is the resharpening factor.
When the bit gets dull, will it be resharpened or tossed in the trash. Is is really cost effective to have the bits resharpened?
On straight bits the diameter will be changed slightly after resharpening. Example: a 1/2 inch straight bit will no longer cut a half inch grove. It will be under sized. Not a big deal but if the bit has a ball bearing guide for flush cuts, it will no longer cut flush. With profile bits the, profile will also be changed slightly which is usually not a big deal unless you are trying to match an existing profile.
Good point, Mr. Hermit. That "you get what you pay for" argument is so generalized that, IMHO, it's totally worthless (hmmmm, is that sorta a pun?). Yes, if you put a super-cheap, crappy bit up against a Freud, CMT, Amana, whatever, there's an obvious difference. But there is a vast middle ground between those two classes of bits. Some may even content that Freud, CMT and Amana are the middle ground (what's the pinnacle in router bits? I'm not sure....)
In addition, what's totally missing from the YGWYPF advice is reality. Not everyone can afford to buy the absolute BEST blade or bit available, and their usage of said blade or bit may be so light that it's not relevant (e.g., a bit that can handle many more resharpenings isn't relevant if it's only used on a few linear feet each year -- extreme example, but makes a point). According to one poster above, IIRC, you don't always GWYPF -- he seems to have bad experience with CMT, which is one of the more expensive options available, no?
While I'm completely opposed to buying on the bottom end of the router bit offerings, for safety reasons if nothing else, I see nothing wasteful or wrong with buying a 30- or 60-piece set from MLCS or another reputable company just to get a good stable of profiles, then replacing the often-used bits with the best quality he can afford, when the time comes. In the meantime, he has some money to spend on other needed tools or accessories.
'scuze me, gotta put the soapbox away.........forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have not seen any comments regarding intended use or how serious one is (or thinks that they are) at the time of purchasing a bit. You may be able to get away with the cheaper end if you work only in the softer woods and just build things every once in a while. However, if you want to work in something really hard (mesquite) or woods that burn easy, then go with a more expensive bit. I'd also pay more if you plan on using the bit a lot, at which point sharpening does make sense. I've found that quality bits seem to just feel better and I get a better results. Has anyone compared the sharpness of cheap bits vs expensive ones?
Another interesting thought -- if you have a dirt cheap router, does is make senes to buy the really expensive bits? At what point does the tool quality play into the decision tree?
I agree that it's a good idea to stay way from the very very cheap bits.
"Has anyone compared the sharpness of cheap bits vs expensive ones?" I think that realllllly controversial test that FWW did a couple(?) years ago addressed the sharpness issue in one way or the other. Wouldn't a less-sharp bit chip out more, for one thing?
"if you have a dirt cheap router, does is make senes to buy the really expensive bits?" Absolutely! A dirt-cheap router has fewer frills, fussier adjustments, whatever, but it still spins 20,000 rpm or whatever. You want a good bit in there. An analogy is my first saw, an Ace benchtop saw (of all things) which cost me all of $79 on sale. I put an $80 blade on it, and wow did it cut nice. Sucked as far as stock support, miter gauge capacity, dado capability, all that junk, but it cut great! ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you have no bits buy a starter set. Whiteside has the best quality all around industrial bits at a good price. Bosch cant be faulted for the quality of their product either. With these two brands you cant go wrong. aloha, mike
Late post but I HAD to respond.. I Have alot of router bits...'
If you have money get Whitesides! None better in my opinion..
But I use ALOT on E'Cheepos! I finish up the final pass with my Whitesides!
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