When it comes to dovetails it seems no machine or jig can give you those fine pins so highly coveted in high end furniture. The simple fact that you can’t make a router bit with such a narrow throat seems to eliminate making those narrow tail openings with a dovetail machine. Even the most skilled professional will tell you hand cut dovetails take time. And the less skilled you are, the more time it takes. One piece of furniture with 8 drawers and 32 corner joints and you’ve got 96-128 dovetail pins & tails. That’s a lot of time.
In FWW #219 there is an article, “Half-Blind Dovetails in Half the Time”. In that article it shows making the tails with a bandsaw. It seems if you want fine pins, the bandsaw is about the only machine that you can use to make tails with such a narrow throat. The article then shows you how to rout out most of the waste in the pins using a router freehand. For me, two problems there: 1) making sure the router doesn’t get away from you and 2) making sure you can see the scribe lines, which requires good lighting, a router with good visibility and an operator that can see the lines through all the chips flying. And no, I haven’t tried it… yet.
I spent a good part of the day yesterday looking at the Wood Rat & Router Boss. Figuring I’d still use the bandsaw to cut the tails, I wondered if those machines could use the tail as a template to cut the pins? But that’s a lot of money to spend if that’s all one is looking to do. So I was wondering if everything else those machines do helps justify the cost. Then I have to ask myself, “Would I really use it for all those other functions?” The answer to that depends a lot on how difficult it is to set the thing up.
Does anyone here own the Wood Rat or the Router Boss? If so, how do you like it? How often do you use it? Is it as amazing as the videos show? Was it worth the money? Also, what accessories did you buy? What accessories would you recommend?
And finally, how narrow of a throat can you make with their dovetail bits? If anyone has any pictures of a dovetail joint made with either machine, please post. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison between their machine cut dovetail and a hand cut dovetail.
Replies
Goldbergian Tool Design and Marketing
[Goldbergian - as in derived from the wonderful cartoons of Reuben Lucius Goldberg (July 4, 1883 – December 7, 1970)]
The router is a wonderful tool, capable of myriad tasks, given the right combination of jigs, fixtures, and immagination. It is probably the imagination part that has spawned so many router-based shop accessories with relatively high prices (more immagination begets more money). ;-)
I have neither a WoodRat, nor a Router Boss. So, take my thoughts within that context.
When faced with so many dovetails, I think one has to make a choice - do 'em by hand (consuming whatever time is necessary), or try to speed the process with some application of machinery appropriate to the desired outcome. Choosing the "appropriate" machinery is the rub.
In my view, "precision" woodworking (aka "fine") starts with precision of design, followed by precision in layout/marking, followed by the application of tools that are similarly precise. Within this context, now might be the appropriate time to mention that a bandsaw, however useful, is not a precision tool.
For precise layout/marking, I think a Japanese-style marking knife (flat on one side, single-bevel on the other) is about as precise as one can get. Similarly, a good Japanese Dozuki, with a little experience/practice will make the small cuts associated with dovetails with more precision than most other styles of saws. Those tiny teeth, shaped like alternating skew chisels, will settle right into a knifed line, and do a quick job of cutting a straight line. A little (again, precise) chisel work, and you're done. Well, sorta. For larger projects, repeating steps 1 through x can be time-consuming.
For machine-cut dovetails that actually fit well, are properly-shaped, etc., I came to the conclusion that you have to five up on the skinny little pins. An adjustable dovetail jig may be the best compromise in terms of variable spacing. But, you're still limited by the diameter of the dovetail bit, which translates into fatter pins. The (new version) Porter Cable OmniJig, IMHO, provides the best match-up of precision and machine-based utility. It is designed for repeatability, based on commonly-used stock thicknesses. Once you've done your set-up with scrap to get a good fit, you can repeat that until the cows (or, flying pigs) come home. The size and weight of the OmniJig, however, suggests a reasonably permanent location - a dovetailing station, if you will.
Just my two cents, though.
Well I talk a good line so I will . . .
Have you seen the videos :
by Frank Klausz
http://www.amazon.com/Dovetail-Drawer-Frank-Klausz/dp/1561587044/ref=sr_1_10?ie=aUTF8&qid=1331429561&sr=8-10
and
Jim Kingshott's
http://www.amazon.com/DVD-Dovetails-Techniques-Master-Woodworker/dp/1565233522/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1331429713&sr=1-1
These guys cut dovetail joints faster than most people can lay them out. Fit on the first try.
I agree about the problem of routing out the waste and not being able to see the lines. I don't want to have a router that close to my face and ears for that long so I would never even consider doing that but some people are just tougher than I am.
Put it this way; if you cut them by hand a whole lot eventually you will get fast like the boys mentioned above. If you use machines you will just be a low skilled machine tool operator.
If you like the idea of the bandsaw cut dovetails, even with all my tirade and uncalled for brow beating, you may want to check out David Charlesworth's book
http://www.amazon.com/David-Charlesworths-Furniture-Making-Techniques-v/dp/1861081251/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331430427&sr=1-1
Page 65 to 69. The chapter is called "A Kinder Cut " and is excellent. He goes on with bandsaw cut dovetails of many varieties in the same book so there is a lot there but the first chapter is the basic stuff.
Japanese saw vs Western style saw FOR CUTTING DOVETAILS
Just to lend my two cents, not that it is the only way, on the above topic.
I started out SURE that the Japanese saw was THEEEE saw to cut precision dovetail joints from reading and a little practice
but
after much close attention and trial and error ( and a hell of a lot of money spent on saws ) ( not one regret though ) I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong and that the western style saw is still the best for cutting western dovetail joints.
Here is some grist for your mill :
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/saw-comparison-ln-vs-gramercy
PS: there is maybe one other thing you may want to look at :
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J95.505.02.htm
I admit to resorting to it for large joints in very hard wood on occasion. I use it with the largest backsaws see my photo in that other thread. I made my own from wood and magnets and stuff I had on hand.
Band saw and router
I just finished four nice drawers with half blinds in cherry and poplar using the FWW #219 method and it worked like a charm. The jig for the bandsaw lets you cut most of the tails without measuring, just by flipping the workpiece. All sixteen tails were exactly the same. The pins were cut using the other jig to hold the drawer front. I added sandpaper, glued in the jig, so nothing slides around. I used my huge DeWalt router and a 1/4 inch spiral bit, and what I found was the slowest speed works best, in this case it was speed #1. Piece of cake. I expeced the router to lurch around like crazy and braced myself but it did nothing at all. Smooth as silk. When the socket of the dovetail filled with chips I pulled the bit into the front channel of the jig and the chips blew out right and left down the channel. I think it must be that end grain mills easier or something. I was able to go right up to the lines, my face about eight inches away, and I was able to blow with my mouth any stray chips in the way. By the way they were not exactly chips, more like course sawdust. If you cut the rabbit across the ends of the sides before you bandsaw the tails it makes it easy a pie to register the tails on the fronts when marking for the pins. I don't think I'll use this method for thru dovetails but I'm a believer for half blinds.
By the way, my DeWalt router speeds go up to 11, not ten. 11 is one more than ten and therefore better, just not for half blind sockets. Eat your heart out Spinal Tap.
Oh Man ! Oh Dude !
11
That's COOL !
Router Boss is Versatile
If you want to use a router to cut dovetails and have the choice of any bits, including narrow neck bits for a hand-cut look, then WooRat or Router Boss are your choices. Unlike some jigs, you do not have to cut your boards in incremental widths to have a half-pin on each side and you choose the number of pins and pin spacing.
With Router Boss you can also use your computer to create a dovetail layout then print the layout and use it on Router Boss to position your cuts. Since the computer created layouts are always symmetrical, any set of pins will fit any set of tails and you do not have to mark your boards. Click on this link: http://www.chipsfly.com/calculators/DovetailCalculator.html
Also, with Router Boss you can use an optional DRO (digital readout display) and a micro-adjuster for very precise positioning of your cuts. Both sockets and pins are cut at the same position so there is only one layout pattern for both. The machine guides the router for each of the socket and pin cuts. You rotate a crank to move the wood to the next cut location, rather than moving the router along a template. It is different, but logical and versatile. There is no need to make any cuts on a band saw, other than to dimension the wood.
Beside through and half-blind dovetails, you can also cut a wide range of other joinery.
My two cents...
Looking at power tools to aid me in creating dovetails is just a way to eliminate the bulk of the waste (and work) that goes into making those really beautiful dovetails. Woodworking is a hobby for me, even though I have sold a few things I have made. But even though it is a hobby, I am a hopeless perfectionist. Try hard as I may, I cannot convince myself of things like, "It's just for me, it doesn't have to be gorgeous but it does have to be well made and functional." I want to make it gorgeous too.
I recently completed a dining room chandelier for a client. When I handed him the bill I told him if the price seemed too high to pay me what he thought it was worth. He paid me over $900 more than what I was asking. I posted a few of the early pictures of it here but I never posted the finished pics because I wasn't happy with the finished product. Like I said, I'm a hopeless perfectionist.
I am completely self taught, other than things I read or videos I've watched. So I grope blindly through a lot of things. That adds a lot to the overall time it takes to do a project. And it causes frustration too.
In making dovetails, I always knew the final fitting would be done with hand tools. But if I can put the hand tools to work after the "bull work" is done, why not? And I don't see any way anyone would know that 90% of the work was done by machine if the end result looks hand made. And it can be if done right.
I've been working on a CAD drawing for a shop made jig that will help me in that effort. Time will tell as to how I do.
Ah, perfection
I hear you regarding perfection and the pursuit thereof. ;-)
I'm in the same self-taught pew, but have the advantage of having worked at the (old-school) hardware store that my father managed. I started helping with the annual inventory when I was about 8 or so, and worked there after school and on Saturdays during high school. I had to learn how tools were used in order to sell them.
Personally, I lean toward either all-hand work, or all machine work with respect to dovetails. I don't have the space to set up a dedicated machine dovetailing station with a new-version PC OmniJig, so I use a (fixed-spacing) PC 4212 jig for machine-cut DTs. Opting for machine-cut with a fixed-spacing jig means accepting the design limitations imposed by the geometry of the jig, including sizing the width of work pieces so they fit that geometry. A variable-spacing jig (either Leigh or PC OmniJig) allows more flexibility with spacing, tail width, etc., so you can approach the hand-cut look. With a fixed-spacing jig, you can skip notches in the template to double the width of a tail, but the practicality is limited by the width of the stock.
What I like about the PC DT jigs is that they include positioning guides for initial setup, plus micro adjustments for the positioning of the template to fine-tune the fit on scrap stock, That approach produces DTs that fit properly in one pass when you do the cuts on your actual work stock.
Similarly, with hand-cut DTs, if the mark-up is done right, and the cuts are done correctly to the mark-ups, "fitting" is reduced to an absolute minimum. The niggley part is mostly a matter of cleaning out corners, and such.
But, to get to the "fits, first time" point, you really have to understand the relational geometry of the joint, how your marking technique relates to that, and where your cuts are really going at the micro level.
Note that I'm not saying which is the "right" way. There are multiple methods for marking, and multiple methods for cutting ("to" the line", "removing the line with the saw", etc.). The right combination of any of these methods can give the desired result.
Ultimately, the real question, I think, is still a matter of how long one wants to spend making the joints, and how many you have to make.
Being a perfectionist and being a purist are not necessarily the same thing.
Router Boss or Wood Rat
Your description of self sounds like you are describing me, to a Tee. Being in a place in my life where I can get serious about my love and infatuation with wood and creating things with it, combined with total fascination with joinery of all kinds, I began looking for ways to utilize a router to its potential. I happened across the Wood Rat and sought more information. After several months of studying this joinery device and comparing it to everything else I could find (did not come across the Router Boss) I took the plunge and purchased the W900 with a few accessories including their HSS bits. While I am still in the process of getting it set up, I am convinced that it has the capabilities with HSS bits (that are very fine) of rivaling hand made dove tails. It has little to no limitations that I can see and can perform nearly any task that you would ask a router to do; it just does it in an unconventional way.
If you have not seen the video of this remarkable device that the inventor has produced, do yourself a favor and seek it out before you opt for something else. I think you can view it on their web site and/or can order it on DVD. You will soon see how easy and uncomplicated the device is, and it takes up only 36 inches on a wall. I have seen the Router Boss since I purchased the Wood Rat, but did not study it. I will say that it appears to be a knock-off of the Wood Rat.
Enjoy the wood, the smell, and the feel.
Removing the bulk is the fast part by hand
It is the final fit that takes all the time.
May as well waste by hand.
Sawing the sides is just a few strokes with a sharp saw.
Can get away with fewer/larger teeth than most people think IF THEY ARE SHARP. Cuts much faster.
Then if you are in a big hurry use a coping saw or jeweler's saw to cut across between the side cuts rather than chop out with a chisel. Generally the chopping is done on softer wood and the sawing across is done on the harder wood because the chopping takes longer on the harder wood.
That leaves the final paring. The time consuming part. When you get really good ( and fearlessly brave ) you cut to the line on the sides plus that micro amount more and the darn things slide together.
All easier said than done.
"Easier said than done"
You are right about that Roc! And having the right tools helps in the "easier" department.
My first foray into making dovetails came about 15 years ago when I bought a Leigh D4. Around that time I had felt FWW was only for professionals and there was no way I could ever do what I saw in the magazine. I let my subscription lapse and kept the "here's the easy way to do it" magazine subscriptions. Back then my woodworking hand tools consisted of one Stanley jack plane (bought new in 1980), some basic saws and a set of Marples chisels.
Retirement left me with a lot of time on my hands and I started to realize my talents could elevate my woodworking skills to a level where FWW quality work was well within my reach. But I needed some good quality tools first. I made a substantial investment in quality hand tools and that made a huge difference in the quality of my work. And that motivated me to forge ahead to places I never thought I'd go.
The chop waste part of the dovetail process has been extremely time consuming for me. But, up until about a week ago, all I had to chop out the waste was those old Marples chisels. I spent more time sharpening them than working with them. Once, after taking a newly sharpened chisel to a piece of jatoba, I found a ding in the edge after only a few strikes.
I just took delivery of a full set of LN bevel edge chisels. Once honed, I will take a stab at hand chopping out the waste. I've seen videos of it done quickly but I haven't been able to even come close to that in my shop. Maybe the LN chisels will be the difference.
And I probably need to invest in a better coping saw (I bought the one I have about 30 years ago at a local hardware store) and also need to consider a jewelers saw. Or maybe I should blow the dust off that D4 and just settle for big fat pins.
Just kidding!
Give Your Self Permission
That is one of those half new age, part yoga instructor talk phrases but with your permission I would like to use it here.
Have you heard of or perhaps practiced the " three minute dovetail" ?
One of the pro instructors came up with it for helping his students. I think it was Garrett Hack or Philip Lowe. I forget. If it is important I will look it up for you.
Anyway the idea is to make a short section of large dovetail on a couple of scraps roughly two or three inches wide and two quarter or three quarter thick. The size is unimportant.
One uses it as a warm up before attempting the real joints for the day. One lays out and cuts and puts it together in three minutes or less and one gives themselves permission to not be perfect but to just flow and get it done.
I think there are things that can be learned from that sort of relaxed attitude to cutting them.
The other, kind of opposite situation that I find I learn from is being under a lot of pressure and getting pissed off and just slam banging through it ( being sure not to cut off any body parts you may need later ). Some times , in other situations , I have had an "Ah Ha " moment during one of those "episodes". Some times I just ruin stuff.
: )
three minute drill
Knock 'em out as fast as you can. Sometimes don't even measure, do it by eye. Sometimes cut the pins first, see pix number one. By doing that you come to realize that cutting the pins first does not mean cutting the pins off first. Seeing Xs when you are done means something is amiss. Join every scrap cut-off with dovetails, every day, till you wanna puke. Then you'll be a man my son. Oh .... except ofor the OP.
See Swen knows about it all
>NO, NO, NO<
Oops ha ha.
What brand of "wood filler" do you recommend to help "hide" and "blend in" the problem areas when that happens ?
Just some glue and saw dust right ?
: )
naaaa tried that, don't work
Using the #48 T&G you plane a groove across the tips and cut a tongue across the end of a board the same width as the failed tails. Then you glue the board into to the tail tips. When the glue is dry,cut off the strip with the NO NO NO and then chop out the bit of tongue now protruding into the space between the tails. Now you have the tails spreading in the right direction, the glue line looks just like a scribe line, and Bob's your uncle.
I don't have experience with those 2 models, but I will say that I typically do mine by hand. Just my 2 cents.
half blind half the time
Until my cataract surgery that was me. Here are some pix of the process. Of course the 1/4 inch spiral bit limits how narrow a socket you can make, you could rout out the socket down to the narrow end and then cut thru from the outside with a saw, leaving little to clean up by hand.
EDIT: I just realized after reading the above that I made no sense at all. Routing very narrow sockets only makes for very narrow tails not pins. Narrow pins are not a problem with the FWW method.
EDIT: Added a pix of the final drawers made with the FWW method.
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