Anybody care to walk me through this? I want to edge-joint q.s. white oak boards to make a table top.
Boards will be about 6″ width, 9 feet long, and about 1-3/4″ thick. My experience in doing a job like this one before is that results from my 6″ Woodtek jointer were less that satisfactory, and the edges needed some hand work before seating well for the glue-up.
I recall an article from a FW issue, long ago, that discussed jointing with a router. The method used did both mating edges in one pass, with the boards fixtured so as to be spread a distance slightly smaller than the router bit diameter. A straightedge is used. The technique is also used for edge jointing curves for decorative effects in tops.
Anybody familiar with this, enough to give me a step-by-step, and precautions?
Replies
To get you started.
DISCLAIMER: I have not tried this yet. I've thought about it as I am planning a curved edge table with contrasting wood edging.
I haven't seen the article, but the theory is straightforward. Routing both edges at once, any deviation in the straightness of the guide rail will be tranfered to both boards in a way that they should still mate well. This implies that your guide rail needn't be perfect - just a well-ripped board. I would also draw a couple of pencil lines or triangles across the joint so that at glue-up you can align the boards the same way that they were during the jointing.
This technique might work adequately on a gently curved joint, but since the radii of the curves on the mating surfaces will differ by the diameter of the bit, it has limitations; the outer curve will have the greater diameter, so the ends of the joint will be open. This would suggest using a smaller diameter bit when edging curves.
You also need to have the 2 boards dead flat on the woksurface; deviation from coplanarity will show up in the finished surface.
Remember that as you make the cut, the bit is climb-cutting one of the edges; perhaps it would be prudent to take about 1/32" off the climb-cut board, and about 1/16" off the other board. I suspect clamping the guide rail to the board that is not being climb-cut would be a good idea.
I suggest you just go ahead and try it. If you are not happy with the technique, you've wasted less than 1/4" of wood.
Gene, either your jointer is set up incorrectly or you are not operating it the right way. You should get perfectly straight edges off the jointer without need for any extra work. The jointer is such an important shop tool that you should spend some time adjusting it.
A simple but effective method is to unplug the power. Take a blade from a combination square and place it on edge on the outfeed table. Line up the 8" mark with the table edge. Slowly rotate the cutterhead by hand. The edge of the knife should grab the square blade and move it ahead 1/8". Check all the knives in a couple of places. If they don't touch and move the rule the exact same, you have to adjust the knives. This will put your knifes and outfeed table in the correct alignment. Just cut in a few inches and you will see the cut edge will land perfectly on the outfeed table
When operating, you have to transfer your pressure from the infeed table to the outfeed. Generally, after the workpiece has passed the cutterhead about one third of it's length. If you keep any pressure over the knives or on the infeed table, you won't be able to get the edge straight. If the jointer is set up correctly, there is no need for making opposite cuts or other compensating actions.
You can use a router to cut both pieces at the same time. This is how veneers and plastic laminate joints are fit. A problem with boards is that they are thick. The router bit must be straight, up and down. You may have to make multiple passes at different depths of cut and an uneven bit will cause problems. The method is simple. Clamp both boards so that there is an even gap between them. The gap should be smaller than the bit diameter. Clamp a straight edge to one board to guide the router. You don't want anything to move or be in the way of making the pass. There are quite a few things that can go wrong with this method.
Passing 9' pieces on a small jointer is a challenge. If you struggle with the piece, it will transfer to the edge. I added some extension tables to my 6" jointer and just use it for edge work. Any supports or tables must be perfectly in line with the jointer tables. Using roller stands would not be my choice. There is hardly a piece that goes into any of my work that hasn't been edge jointed first. I'd spend some time getting the jointer correct, it's much easier to confidently throw a switch and make a pass than use more complicated methods.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Nice looking extension table. I've been thinking of doing the same thing - manhandling an 8' length of 5/4 maple while keeping full contact with the tables is tough. Do you have an infeed extension too?Frosty
Yes, I have an infeed extension and I also have some longer ones. I was able to bolt a block to the ends of the jointer. The tables slip over the block and are held with two screws, adjustable leg on the other end. The extensions I use the most are 24" long, this gives me 48" on either side of the knives. I can handle 12' hardwood with the 24". Since I set the knives to the outfeed table, I never actually have to move the outfeed table. That extension table stays in the same place unless I take it off. I don't change the infeed table setting very often. When I do, I slap a magnetic level on the iron and adjust the leg so the table is in line. You do need flat, slippery table tops and a seamless transition from the iron table to the extension. Elongated holes in the block allow fine alignment. Jointers that have end mounted fences, like older Deltas, will need another approach for attaching on the infeed side. Those little tables turned an inadequate, small machine into one that can handle all but the largest timber edge work. I threw them together out of shop scraps for a particular project and can't live without them now. Because they help carry the weight of the work, it makes the jointer more stable with large, heavy pieces.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks for the details on your installation. I will use that approach.I often work with long, "raw" hardwood boards and the short table just doesn't 'cut it'. I have had good luck with the Rigid 'Flip Top' stands in place of roller stands (that steer the board) or roller-ball stands (that don't work for edge jointing outfeeds). I gave my old stands to my son.Frosty
If you've got a 6" jointer, don't fool around with a router, fix the jointer. If you've having problems with edge jointing on a relatively low mileage jointer, the fix is most likely minor.
First, verify that the infeed and outfeed tables are square to the fence. Assuming they are (or the fence can be set so they are) a slight change in outfeed table height is most likely all that's required.
If the knives have been out, it's possible they're set wrong. If you have dovetailed ways, it's possible the gib screws are loose, but be very careful not to overtighten as this can lead to cracks in the ways.
There are lots of articles on jointer adjustment on Knots and elsewhere. Resist the urge to buy a dial indicator or dig into heavy-duty adjustments such as shimming tables parallel, as it's extremely unlikely that either will be required in your case.
Pete
Learn to get the jointer working properly. Absolutely the best advice.
Rich
The advice regarding getting your jointer working properly is OK, but when I consider the size of your boards (white oak: 6"x1 3/4") I think you will need some extra bed support. I don't know the length of that Woodtek bed, but my jointer has a 72" length and I'd have a difficult time holding the trailing end of the board flat as it passed the knives. So you might need to cobble up a outfeed support at the minimum. Or, practice the jointer technique. There's nothing wrong about using it..... it's just slow to do, in my experience. The two boards must be clamped to a support table with the requisite gap between them. Then slowly feed the router through the gap. You must be sure to keep the router firmly against the guide fence. It the bit makes more contact with the outer board than the inner one, the bit will want to climb away from the fence.
I hadn't noticed the 9'X 1 3/4" dimensions. That's a challenge on a 6" jointer, though the suggestion of roller supports would probably make it doable.
The easiest solution is to find someone with a really big jointer to run your boards. Do you have a good wood store nearby? You might check woodfinder.com to see what's in your area. Someone's got to have an aircraft carrier in your neighborhood.
Pete
Edited 12/1/2006 7:09 pm ET by PeteBradley
Gene,
In woodworking one is often faced with this sort of problem- here you have a small jointer but long boards, although at 6" width by 1/2" thick they will not be that heavy.
As others have said, roller supports will be helpful. If you can use those with your jointer then all you need to do is make any adjustments using a hand plane such as a #7 or #8.Joint one board then clamp it in vise edge up , joint the next one, place it on the first and eyeball for any gaps- mark with pencil and handplane them until you have the fit you want (which should be such that the ends mee first -a spring fit).Sounds difficult, but using a hand plane effectively should be part of woodworking.Forget about using routers for that,especially with that thickness-even if you do succed in getting straight guided cuts every time you breathe there will be a mark/ripple/dip/burn or whatever-which will need to be removed with--- a handplane.
And that is a perfect example of why it is necessary to be able to use hand tools before machine tools, and why the hand plane will never disappear.Philip Marcou
P.S- I have never had a #8- have managed just fine with a BedRock #607 which I use mainly for this purpose after jointing with my Griggio.
Edited 12/3/2006 3:45 am by philip
Gene,
To answer your question:
You need these things to create a good straight edge with a router:
1 A powerful 1/2 inch router. If you can, mount it on a sub base that will run over the whole width of your plank
2 A 2 inch straight edge bit of around 3/4 inch diameter and preferably with angled or "sheer" cutting edges rather than vertical cutting edges. It should have a bottom edge-following roller of the same diameter as the bit.
3 A genuinely straight edge that is slightly wider than the plank, 1/2 inch or more thick, flat and with the long edge (that the bit will follow) at a genuine 90 degrees to its wider dimension. It should ideally be just a couple of inches longer than the plank, because you strap plank-to-straightedge-to-bench with clamps on the ends, allowing the router to clear them at the start and end of your edging cut.
4 A stable bench or other arrangement to hold the plank-on-straight edge arrangement at a good working height, with room for you to walk down the side of it pushing the router.
You strap the plank on to the straight edge; and both to the bench. You walk down the side of the arrangement cutting off the small edge of the plank protruding beyond the straight edge. (No more than 1/8 inch max; and don't necessarily take it all off in just one pass).
The bit height is such that the roller follows the straight edge whilst the cutter spans the whole of the plank thickness.
You go quick enough to avoid burning but not so quick that the router bogs down or bounces off the edge. Concentrate an keep the router untipped (which is why a large sub base helps). If you can go with the grain this will hep avoid splintering, especially with the likes of oak.
Another anti-tip tip (!) is to run a batten of a thickness equal to plank plus straight edge, parallel to and about 1-2 inches from the the edge to be cut. The cutter then works in a channel with its base supported at both sides. It getting complicated now!
Of course, the wide dimensions of your plank should ideally be flat and straight, or the uneven surface of the plank will wobble the router a bit.
You can ensure parallel edge planks by making a double (and parallel) straight edge that is the same width as your final plank width and doing both edges. A piece ripped carefuly from the long edge of a sheet of 3/4inch mdf or birch ply is good for this.
Otherwise, you need to measure and mark the second edge of the plank parallel to the first you have straightened then mount it carefully on the straight edge to follow the mark.
That advice about geting the jointer to work is definitely the best option......
Lataxe
Lataxe, By about 1/3 through your post, I thought a good reply would be that these instructions were the best justification for using a jointer. Toward the end, I had prepared my reply. Then I saw your last line. Good advice. Rich
Rich14
Actually, I had a different take on Lataxe post.
I thought he did an EXCELENT job of giving completely idiot proof instructions on how to do it( by idiot proof---i mean" I" was completely clear on how to do it , lol )
It possibly took him longer to type the post---- then it might take to actually DO the procedure.
It's also intriguing that having that particular method in your "bag of tricks"-- is remarkably liberating. Using quite simple--and comparatively in-expensive tools---------- you could straighten an edge on some really mamoth stock that would be essentially impossible to run safely through a lot of jointers.
It's a good example of " what do I ACTUALLY need to achieve?"-- perhaps the "standard" way isn't always the "best" way ?
Very best wishes to all,
Stephen
"That advice about geting the jointer to work is definitely the best option......" . . . . That's ambiguous?
rich,
I don't think i said that it WAS ambiguous ! ;)
Best wishes, Stephen
Stephen,
I confess I haven't used the router to straighten planks for a while, as even my relatively short-tabled planer/thicknesser can be made to straighten both edges and faces at a perfect 90 degrees - once you have the machine properly set up and you have learnt all them tricks for using it well.
My "learn to plane/joint" lessons were often quite difficult and would have amused a passer-by, as they involved a few wedge-shaped planks, tear out of some depth, banana-shapes and blue language. I was often tempted to return to the router and straight edge but persevered, as one should, in the face of adversity. (That is, I am a stubborn old git).
I would go on and on about what I now know about using a planer/thicknesser successfully but that really would be a good soporific for those in need of a nap!
Lataxe
Lataxe,
no matter how fine your planer works--
I am envisioning instances where somebody might be working some stock so large-- that it is reasonable impractical to try to manuever through a planer and along some rollers with reasonable safety
much simpler, working solo , with say a flitch 18" wide and 12 ft. long, 1-3/4" thick---- to bring the cutting tool to the slab---than to bring the slab to the cutting tool.
my personal inclination is generally to stay as close to the realm of handtools as I can---and as far away from the realm of machinists and tool and die workers as possible( been there/done that!)
using the planer in most cases would be simpler and faster--------- but sometimes trying to force the un-usual to fit into a standard solution----- ends up being waaaaay more complicated.
Best wishes, Stephen
Would that the good Lord shall give me the opportunity to work on a piece of wood a magnificent 18" wide, 12 feet long and 1-3/4" thick. I've never had the privilege.
And yes, if I ever do, I don't think I shall be so foolish as to try and balance it on my relatively-puny 6 ft long jointer tables, plus some makeshift extensions. I shall bring my hand tools to the work.
Rich
Rich & Haz,
When I first began WW there were only a few tools in my bag, as the immediate motivation to take it up was only to make a daughter some better bookshelves, for a lot less than she was going to spend in Ikea for something that looked rather flimsy and pale to me. There were no big machine tools then for me; and not even a shed.
Without the proper tools or the means to house them, it was needs-must so I learnt to shape planks with a router and a rather poor Record handplane (a smoother, which was no good for making straight edges and not too hot on smoothing either).
Later on I got a Veritas router table and used it with the fence shims to straighten edges. It acts like a jointer on its side, with long false fences, the outfeed one shimmed, acting as the jointer "table". That too worked well but required a few errors before I learnt get the right setup and a feed technique that avoids bends, gouges or ripples. It is no good for very long and/or heavy planks though.
A planer/thicknesser - 10 inch width capacity and 3HP (output) - now joints and flattens everything I handle, including recently some very large chunks of maple for a workbench top. Like Rich, I will find one way or another to support very large planks into and out of the planer/thicknesser, as it will produce a better finish than even the most careful edging with a router. It also handles 3 inch thick maple, which no router bit I know could do using the straight edge approach.
However, I do make the planer/thickneser's job easier by rough-dressing a waney edged or otherwise grossly mis-shapen plank first, using anything from a circular saw & straight edge to an electric planer to (these days) a proper hand plane (thank you Mr Lee and Mr Marcou). The less times you need to heft a geet big plank from the outfeed back to the infeed end of the planer/thicknesser, the better. It's the dialectic at work. :-)
Lataxe
PS Sorry for rambling on.
Gene,
With boards this long, and the logistical problems involved in using a power planer, etc., you might consider using a jointing plane to edge joint your boards. If you have even just a bit of planing experience, you'll find that it is not difficult to get good results.
_____
Here's one way to joint an edge (for panel making):
You'll need an accurate try or combo square, an accurate straight edge, a pencil, and a (jointer) plane.
Select a face to be your reference face. All measurements of squareness come from this face. Select an edge to flatten. Check the flatness of the edge with the straight edge. Mark any high spots. Trim just those spots with your plane (this will probably take only a pass or three). Use a pencil to place a continuous squiggly mark all along the length of the edge. Take a couple of full-length passes with the plane until the pencil marks disappear. About 2 to 4 inches in from each end (depending on the overall length of your board), place a line on the edge perpendicular to the length of the board (i.e., from face to face), and then run a squiggly mark all along the length of the edge between the two face-to-face marks. Start planing from the near face-to-face mark to the face-to-face mark at the other end of the board until the pencil lines disappear (this should take only a couple of passes). Now take one or two full length passes. Check with straight edge. You should have a very, very slightly concave surface from one end to the other (something on the order of 1/64 to 1/32 inch). Use the try square to check for squareness to your reference face, and correct as necessary.
This will give you a "sprung joint" which will help keep the ends of the board from opening up with humidity changes.
Some helpful techniques:
Set the plane iron for light to very light shavings, and make sure that it is square to the sole of the plane.
Make sure that your iron is SHARP. Stop planing and re-sharpen as necessary; this is much faster than re-doing your entire board because a dull iron caused huge tear-out just as you were about finished.....
Use a three-finger grip on the tote, with your index finger pointing alongside the iron in the direction of planing. Hook your forward hand thumb around the rear of the knob and use the edge of your index finger as a "fence" underneath the sole of the plane, alongside the face of the board (for obvious reasons, you don't want to do this if the face of the board is rough and splintery.....). This will help keep the sole of the plane perpendicular to the face and will help keep the edge square to the reference face.
Keep the tote vertical (90º); this will (help) keep your edge square to the reference face.
Skew the plane slightly if you run into uncooperative grain.
Register the front (toe) of the plane on the board, keeping most of the pressure on the knob, as you start your planing stroke. Transition the pressure to even on both the knob and tote in the middle of the board, and move the pressure back to the tote as the front end of the plane comes up to the far end of the board. This will help prevent rounding off the ends.
Use even, deliberate, moderate to slow speed strokes. Going too fast increases the probability of inducing unevenness (local high/low spots) in the length and of losing squareness in the width of the edge.
You can plane two board edges at the same time. To use this technique, choose the two edges that will be glued to each other and fold the boards together so that the two top faces are touching each other (like closing a book). Clamp the boards together so they won't shift position relative to each other. Plane the edges and get them straight, as described above. If there are any deviations from absolute squareness, the complimentary angles will cancel each other out when they are fitted together edge to edge.
If you have one, you can use a shooting board on shorter boards to help you get a straight and square edge.
All of this appears more complicated in writing than it actually is in practice. Give it a couple of tries on some scrap; you'll be surprised at how fast you pick up the technique and how fast you can prepare the edges of boards for glue-up.
This is only one of several ways that this can be done; it works pretty well for me. YMMV.
Good luck and have fun!
_____
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Chames, I thought I chust told him basically the same thing chust some time ago?( Except that mine was chust a bit easier)
Cheers.Philip Marcou
Edited 12/5/2006 1:18 am by philip
Señor Philip:
Que? Que?
Methinks you did; I'm not exactly known for being non-loquacious, am I?
EDIT: Please, sir! I promise not to do it again! Thank you, sir! END EDIT. ;-)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 12/5/2006 4:53 pm by pzgren
Edited 12/5/2006 4:54 pm by pzgren
James,
You are a gasbag surpassed in loquacity only by moi. It's a good job your gassin' is full of good and pertinent advice!
You may be interested to know that I download and store a number of your posts, sa I am larnin' to plane and that stuff is useful.
Of course, Philip should supply a User Manual with is wares, of not less than 569 pages, including diagrams and a free Tormek. However, his pithy words in Knots will have to do, as he is too busy making the next Holtey-killer. (Oops, I may have become one of the New Offenders).
Lataxe, appreciative of knowledgeable chaps, however long-winded and plane born-agin (so to speak). :-)
My goode Fellow:
<<You are a gasbag surpassed in loquacity only by moi.>>
And I am absolutely certain that you, sir, have mistaken me for some other chap.... "Gasbag," indeed!
<<You may be interested to know that I download and store a number of your posts, sa I am larnin' to plane and that stuff is useful.>>
OK, I admit that it is a wee bit gratifying to learn that someone actually benefits from any of the dross that I write.
<<Of course, Philip should supply a User Manual with is wares, of not less than 569 pages, including diagrams and a free Tormek.>>
Yes, I agree that Philip should issue a User Manual, of at least 569 pages and including all manner of diagrams, charts, and tables of figures, with his fine hand planes (although methinks the Tormek is probably pushing it, but it can't hurt to ask....).
At times, it feels as though I have read entirely too much Tolstoy, Jane Austin, Richard Burton, Dostoyevsky, etc., to ever entertain any hope of being succinct..... (Help! Help! I'm an Idiot Possessed! Whatever shall be my Punishment for this Crime???)
;-)
Yours in gasbaggery (sounds like some sort of morals offense, doesn't it?), loquacity, long-windedness, and non-repetitious redundancy,Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
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