My friends, I’ve heard alot of hipe .. and I’m looking for your experience.
How would you rank the following router brands for overall quality on a scale of 1-5? (5 being the best)
Ryobi
Makita
Porter-Cable
Bosch
DeWalt
Skil
Black & Decker
Craftsman
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Replies
Take a look at recent issues of FWW and other woodworking magazines. Routers are carefully reviewed all the time. I'd much sooner rely on those pseudo-scientific reviews than on the anecdotal responses you're going to get here.
What Mark said.
Quality means a lot of different things. Or should I say quality includes a lot of different factors and people weight different factors differently. Some of the factors might include noise, smoothness of cut, dust collection fittings, durability, difficulty of changing bits, capacity for different shank diameters (including metric), suitability for template collars, concentricity of bit and base, speed adjustability, soft start, suitability of power cord (I loathe SJT power cords because they're too stiff, much prefer SJ or SJO), can you reach the switch with your hands in the operating position, visibility of cutting area, ability to attach a router guide, how hot does it get, replacable bearings, industry standard vs. proprietary bearings, availability of repair parts, robustness (droppability?), etc. And I haven't even used a router that much. The guys who use them a lot will have a whole 'nother list of important factors.
What exactly are you looking for in a router?
Edited 8/30/2002 12:45:35 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
Ken,
The above two negative responses, not withstanding, after all, this is a forum, a place for opinions, ideas, discussions, not scientific certainty (or pseudo-scientific certainty), I have found, in my limited experience (hmmmf) that Bosch, Dewalt Hitachi and Makita products are consistently reliable, well-designed and trouble-free. They are well above other makes in consistent quality and design.
I have used the Bosch 2 hp VS plunge router, Dewalt 3 hp VS plunge, and Hitachi 3 hp VS plunge. I own the Bosch combo plunge/fixed base fixed-speed router. I would give a slight nod to the Dewalt among these, but just by a hair. They are all very good machines.
I have also used the Porter Cable 2 hp VS plunge and was disappointed that it wobbled on its plunge mechanism. Porter Cable is usually a good line and I understand that its 3 hp model is much better, but have no experience with it.
You can get opinions and experiences (I have found these very helpful) from lots of ordinary people on just about every tool sold at Amazon.com. No scientific studies, just practical experience.
Rich
Well, let's see...
Craftsman- burned out pretty quick.
Porter/Cable- I have a 691 D-handle which I've had for 15 years and it still keeps working, even after running horz. panel raisers in it. I also have a 3hp plunger which needed a rebuild after a few years. My P/C trim router still works good,except the threads for the base adjustment have stripped.
Freud3000(?) So far so good. An impulse buy when I needed another 3hp plunger in a pinch. Soft start, nice router, except the depth limit screw vibrates out of position.
Dewalt- Trim router, Lots of snap, easy bit changing, so far so good.
Other routers I've used and liked;
Milwaulkee- tough as nails
Makita-OK in a pinch(IMO)
There's my un-scientific tests which have been performed over the course of decades.
read the customer reviews on amazon.com/tool-crib. they print them all- warts and all. for example, i was ready to buy a pc 2hp plunge router, but practically every review mentioned one or two of the same four or five problems, so i went with the bosch and couldn't be happier.
mitch
I have owned only 3 different routers.
The 2 hp VS Plunge Porter Cable has perfomed well but I did have a switch break and the PC folks replaced quickly. Not the type of router I enjoy working with. For hand routing I prefer something smaller in size.
I have an older 2 hp Milwaukee (no VS, no plunging) it runs like a tank. I find this typical of Milwaukee tools. It's also very loud but the new line is a bit quieter.
I also have a craftsman which is very old and is not in the same league as the other two mentioned above.
Good Luck in selecting a new one,
Lar
Everyone, Thank you for the advice.
Rich, Dave and Lar, I thank you for your time-tested experience.
I've got to admit something... I got a brand new Porter Cable 693 Fixed/Plunger kit at a pawn shop for $125 (and they threw in a new block plane). I couldn't find a good review of a wide range of router brands, so I was looking for the old-timer's experience.
I guess it was that Lowe's $119 Bosch post that got me started justifying a new router purchase...
Thanks again,
-Ken
If you have the 693 router, you should splurge and buy the D-handle for this motor. It is much easier to use than the fixed 2 knob base that comes with the kit.
Ryobi 1
Porter Cable 5
Makita 5
Bosch 5
skil 1
B&D 2
Dewalt never used this router
The Porter Cable is my personal choice, I have used some of these routers that were at least twenty years old and still run great. The Bosch and Makita are lighter in weight and are good values. I do not know if they will last as long as the PC routers.
Dewalt never used this router
One thing I've always been curious about is all the money people sink into router tables, attachments and routers. I've seen a lot of people that would have been, IMO, better off buying a small shaper. Heck of a lot easier to adjust. I know, some would say that you can do more with a router, etc. Most that I know have a dedicated router for their table and another router for other work. But I've also seen some use a table that is nothing more then a flat top with a straight stick and a couple of c clamps for a fence. Obviously a different catagory of router user.
Hey, there's no right or wrong to this and I'm sure not making any judgements if it sounds that way. As I said, just curious why some opt for one over the other.
Don
There is a place for both....both have pros and cons. My vote is for the router table...for what I do it makes sense. The bit costs are less (my buddy pays $50-$150 for each set of shaper knives), a router is more flexible and, save really big jobs ("big" = high numbers produced = justifiable knife costs, "big" may also include jobs to large for even a 3.5 hp router and the relatively small 1/2" collet bits available), the shaper just isn't as cost effective or useable...and I'd still need a router for, well, routing.....
Again, in a perfect world, both have their place.
I was just going through the numbers eralier today. The cost to start from scratch router, table, and fence vr. shaper is marginal not counting the bits. I plan on making mostly cabinets & some funiture. What would be the best investment, shaper or router? I have neither at this time.
Don,
I think it's like has been stated by some, it's a matter of preference. My opinion though is that most with a router table use a dedicated router to basically make a shaper out of it. A shaper can be much easier to adjust, a somewhat more versatile machine and generally a much more solid machine compared to a router table. Probably along the lines of comparing a cabinet saw to a contractors saw. As you've realized, with the marginal cost difference, I just don't understand why more don't opt for the shaper when that's really what their after. I don't know if I have any answers for anyone. It's just one of those ongoing questions.
Don
Thanks. I'm really new to this woodworking stuff and appreciate all the info I can get. I also looking at a Jet 3hp left tilt with the optional sliding table. I thought the sliding table might be a good investment due to space and the mostly cabinet work I plan on doing. Any thoughts?
Don
oooohh... left tilt. i'm not trying to sway you towards or away, but just realize that with a left-tilt saw, the arbor is on the opposite side of the blade as the fence. this means that once you set your fence, any change in blade thickness will throw your measurements off unless you measure every time. example... a thin kerf blade will leave you a litle more trimming to do. the flip side is that a stacked dado will throw you off dramatically, and leave your piece short if you forget. my roomate just got a left-tilt, and he said it takes a little getting used to. measuring each cut can get a little tedious, too; but that's all just a matter of preference.
just my $.01
good luck!
I have a dedicated 3hp Bosch router in my table. But I can see where a shaper is more versatile, adjustable, etc. Do shapers come with speeds that will handle router bits, e.g., 20,000 rpm? Most I think I've seen in the ads are about 13,000, or maybe it was 10,000. If not, why not? Are they belt driven, or direct drive? If belt driven, can they be modified with step pulleys?
Those are good questions and I don't have the answers for you. Most shapers are 2 speed, but not as fast as a router. I don't have any data on this, but I'd like to know the difference between no load speed for a router and average operating speed under load. A shaper, being much more stable, may not need to operate at such a high speed. I also may not bog down the same as a router. Most shapers will also operate in reverse which allows for controled climbing cuts. A great feature for cleaning a cut up.
EDIT---I did read in a magazine years ago about the value of hp ratings on hand tools. I sure don't remember the math they used concerning rpm's and current, etc., but I do remember that hp rating for hand tools is pretty useless. So, are you getting 3 hp from your Bosch under a load? Would you compare it to the 3 hp a unisaw develops?
Maybe someone else has these answers???
Don
Edited 9/5/2002 10:22:31 AM ET by Don C.
As part of longer story not worth repeating, I did have a shaper, for about a week. I used a thumbnail bit to edge the tops and bottoms of stool seats about 14" square, 6/4 cherry. I used it set so that the reveal was not cut, just the curve. This worked, but not well; too slow. It was a light duty industrial Delta.
The Jet shaper is a 1 1/2 hp, 1ph, which the sales person said was comparable to the Porter Cable 3 1/4 mounted to a table. The motor difference was that the Shaper was induction verses one with brushes, if that makes sense. The spindle speed is 7000 & 9000.
Don,
Just a few (biased) observations re. router vs. shaper.
1. Routers use universal motors which run at very high speeds, temperatures, and decibels. The horsepower ratings of these motors (as you pointed out) are grossly over-rated. For example, Bosch's benchtop table saw is rated at 4.4 hp, which is 47% greater than my cabinet saw... right. Universal motors are intended to be run for short periods of time. Longer run times produce excess heat and shorten motor life.
2. Shapers use induction motors which run at slower speeds, temperatures (TEFC), and are relatively quiet. These motors have plenty of power, and should last a lifetime.
3. Routers are light and portable, and their bits are relatively inexpensive.
4. Shapers are heavy (mine weighs in just under 400 lbs), definitely not portable, (a great advantage if one has a cheap brother-in-law who's always borrowing your tools!) and their cutters are expensive.
5. Router bits usually come with 1/4" or 1/2" shanks. Not very large, but the machine depends on speed, not power.
6. Shaper cutters are usually mounted on 3/4"-1 1/4 spindles making for greater stability and strength which allows for more power and lower speed. Shaper cutters can also be stacked to make different configurations, even turned upside down. As noted the machine is reversible, so feed direction is never a problem.
Certainly both tools have their advantages and disadvantages. One has to consider the type of work they're doing, budget, and value. (Will I use the thing enough to justify the expense?)
To wrap this all up in a simpler way, think of the router as a Yugo and the shaper as a Mercedes, but the Mercedes costs only 20% more than the Yugo with all the bells and whistles. Now, you decide... (I said I was biased)
Jeff
Thanks Jeff, you’re the first person that I have heard say they prefer a Shaper to the router table setup. I’m extremely new, so I know just a little shy of nothing, but the way I priced it out the 1 ½ hp Jet is cheaper than setting up a router tale from scratch. I’m a remolding contractor that plans on making cabinets and furniture for my own use, and then probably vanities and some kitchens for some clients in the future. I figure this a long-term investment/ hobby. Do you think that a shaper is a good choice for me? The Jet says it comes with ¼” and ½” collets to accept router bits. Is 1 ½ enough or do you think I would need a 2 hp?
Don
Don,
I went with the 3hp not only for the bigger motor, but more so because of the larger table, heavier fence, and all-around stronger construction.
In another forum a fellow who is a cabinet maker said he has used a 1 1/2 hp. for years making door panels, etc. with no problems.
Popular Woodworking had an editorial last month re. shaper vs. router, and said they will do some articles in the future.
Jeff
Thanks again Jeff.
I’m dumbfounded at the varied strong opinions the sales people, and the little they actually know about the different abilities of each machine, (i.e. saying the shaper can’t accept router bits). I guess things are always changing in the industry, or machines are pretty much the same and all that’s left is personal biases. Who knows?
Speaking of which, what would you choose the Delta 3hp cabinet saw with the Bies. fence, or the Jet cabinet saw. They’re the same price as a package, except the Jet comes with a tenoning jig. Also what are your thoughts on Left tilt?
Don
Don,
I went with a Jet because I got a better deal on it, but I think the Delta has a better fence. They're both great machines. Does the Delta have the dust chute included as part of the price?
Mine has left tilt. Some people don't like it since fence gauge is unusable when using dado blades, but I always check with a ruler before I cut so that part's no big deal. Guess I prefer the safety of having the blade tilt away from the fence.
Jeff
This topic has migrated from routers some huh?
I've never had a ts that wasn't a contractor style saw. If I'm following this right, they are all left tilt, correct? There away from the fence anyway.
Don
Don,
Most saws, until recently, tilted to the right which was also toward the fence. Now almost all cabinet saws offer the option of left tilt. My dealer says he doesn't even stock the right tilt models anymore since most folks prefer the left.
Jeff
[raises hand] i don't prefer left tilt. i'm the weirdo.... ;)
my take on it -swapping out blades is a fairly common thing. to say the fence can only be used with one blade without re-adjusting the fence gauge or measuring manually seems truly counter productive to me. with the proper splitter, and some good 'ol common sense, i've managed to keep all of my fingers thus far, and until that changes, i still think the right tilt can be just as safe. i'm not knocking those that prefer the left, i'm just making a case for the right. the only time i feel unsafe is if i'm doing a 45 on a board so narrow i can barely get a push stick on it. if that's the case, i'm doing it wrong anyways. i now just cut the angle on a wider board, and cut off the piece that i need on the left with the blade at 90. i guess i've just never had any real luck manually measuring, and doing a test cut every time seems wasteful.
anyways, i guess for me it comes down to this: i need to have the fence accurate with different blades more often than i need to have the blade tilted away from the fence. in that event, i just move my fence to the left of the blade.
just my $.02
Edited 9/8/2002 12:35:00 AM ET by tschmaling
Okay I understand those reasons for a right tilt, but being a beginner can you answer a couple of questions:
Are different blades (i.e. thin vs. reg. kerf) a standard measurement for the most part? What I mean, would you be able to say add/or subtract a 1/16 for the fence reading, or is it common for a person to use so many blades that have different kerf? I realize that a dado blade would be this way, and I would assume you would want to measure each time.
I heard someone say that if you plan on making cabinets that a right tilt was better and safer for the kind of cuts you would be doing? Does that make sense?
Curious,
Don
Jeff,
I was told that the Delta was including the dust port.
Don
Don,
BUY IT!
Jeff
Left and right tilt isn't an issue if you use an European style rip fence, such as the Delta Eurofence which is a clone of the pattern. For narrow stock with right tilting saws simply slide the fence out from it's high vertical orientation, and slip it back onto the locking device presenting the narrow working edge. Also, you set the front point of the fence just beyond the downward chopping teeth of the blade, and this prevents the timber getting trapped, which is an issue with the standard US tall, full length rip fences. If you own both a right tilt machine, and a standard US style fence, it's easy enough to make up a narrow edged rip fence that clamps on to the standard fence which will emulate the European style of fence for safer operation. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
i don't think i've seen one of those yet. do you have a pic you can post? it sounds kinda like the unifence.
My brain fart, t. Sorry. Malapropism's to the fore. I meant to say Unifence, but it inadvertantly transposed into Eurofence. Slainte.RJFurniture
Have put a CD together with just this sort of information. Consolidates the practical data from the 10 essential router makers on a couple of dozen tools. <A HREF=http://www.patwarner.com/routing_outing.html>Click</A>for the introduction.
Bosch 1619 5 Best multipurpose 3hp router I have used
Bosch 1617 4 Can't give all routers a five
Makita 1101 4 If Bosch 1617 gets a 4 so does this one
PC690 2
PC fixed 3hp (forgot #) 5 3 if used out of table because of weight
Dewalt 621 5 Light, smooth plunge
Dewalt 625 4 1/2 Not enough plunge
PC laminate trimmer 3 Low visability at base, w/ Pat Warners base 4
i'd give that new milwaukee palm grip one a look (there's a d-handle also). i've heard really good things about it, and the magazines also seem to like it quite a bit. this fall they are releasing it as a variable speed, and who knows... maybe a combo kit?
c'mon christmas.....
I have only owned PC routers for the last 30 or so years. The one main complaint I have with them is the hokey depth setting adjustment method. Getting a real accurate setting is next to impossible.
I would never buy Ryobi, B&D, or Craftsman electric tools. Well, maybe some Craftsman. I understand Bosch quality has gone down the tubes.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
Hate to admit it, but I own a Ryobi router. Can't say I have any complaints, but then I don't use it very often - I'm just plain scared of the blasted things. Only use it when I can't get the job done on my shaper or by hand.
If folks don't like the Ryobi, don't buy a Craftsman because Ryobi makes their routers.
Jeff
Ryobi and Craftsman are what they are and don't pretend to be something else. DeWalt hand tools on the other hand pretends to be a professional tools and tries to pass itself off as such. It's ok I guess if you're the 1 in 5 that doesn't have to return the tool for some reason, or one of the ones like many I know that just live with the little errors and problems. Now, if they didn't charge the money they did for that junk, it might be a different story.
When it comes to tools, there's only one thing that I'm passionate about. Can you guess what that is? ;^)---Been burned too many times. I have a friend that's a national rep also. That's always fun! I have told him that if he gives them to me free to evaluate, I'd be more then happy to use them. Hasn't worked yet!
Don
Don,
Might you be talking about routers? My Lord, you are a passionate devil! One of the WW mags, I think it was Popular Woodworking, did an evaluation of medium duty plunge routers and the Dewalt took top honors. Perhaps a letter to the editor is called for?
I really put little faith in their evaluations. Was sorting through some mags last week and found a copy of Wood and looked at their evaluation of benchtop planers. They gave poor marks to the Ryobi AP12, even though its performance figures were right in line with the others. (That is unless one considers 0.004" as opposed to 0.002" a significant difference.)
I've noticed that certain brands (e.g. Grizzly) are often pooh-poohed or given a "best value" rating at best, even though their performance compared to the more expensive machines is very good. Seems they have a preference for Delta. I don't; my Delta drill press, wet/dry grinder, 12" miter saw, and Porter Cable biscuit jointer are all worth their weight in equine fecal matter, and not a penny more.
Jeff
P.S. I'm passionate about routers too. I hate them with a passion.
> ....I really put little faith in [magazine] evaluations.
Simple ... look at the advertizing revenues at stake. Check out *any* periodical in any line of work or discipline that publishes 'revues' and compare the top rated machines, software, hardware, blah-blah-blah with the amount of advertizing from the respectively high rated (same stuff).
Not a hard & fast rule but deceptively coincidental from my view.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Bosch 5
Porter Cable 2
Skill 3
I might mention that skil does some amazing things for half the money. I've had more problems with my PC than my skil. Skil is a force to be reckoned with. They're taking the best (bosch) and knocking it down and taking off some of the beeps and whistles.
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