I recently upgraded my router in my table from the PC 690 to the PC 7518 3-1/4 hp. My current setup is a Rockler router table top, slightly modified, sitting on a stand that I made. I have noticed a considerable amount of sag in the 1/4″ aluminum plate after mounting the bigger router. I know I should probably lift the plate and router assembly out after using, but I don’t always remember.
My question is this: is there a stiffer plate available that will withstand the weight of the heavier router without removing it after each use? I am not opposed to constructing a new table, as sag in the 1-1/4″ MDF may eventually become an issue as well.
The other factor in this equation is space. I have a small shop, and currently have my router table on a set of short legs so I can stow it away when not in use. Anyone have any experience with the Bench Dog cast iron table saw wing and router table top? Is it worth the price? Am I better off dedicating some floor space to a router table and cabinet?
My shop is approx. 14′ x 24′, so space is an issue for me. Table saw, planer, and jointer are all on mobile bases, but the table saw is stationary for the most part.
Thanks for your help!
Replies
The Lee Valley router table top is coined steel. I have a PC 7518 in mine for ~ 2 years and no sag. It's a good set up.
Glaucon
I am amazed that 1/4 aluminum would sag under the weight of this router. Has anyone else had this experience?
I am amazed that 1/4 aluminum would sag under the weight of this router. Has anyone else had this experience?
Not me. What is "noticable"? SHould I get out the feeler guages?
I built my table from norms plans with a few modifications. I laminated two 3/4 mdf pieces together and covered with HPL. The thing weighs a ton. I use woodpeckers precision router lift. It's an aluminum plate with the 7518. I have zero sag. I think one critical thing is design of your top. Provide plenty of support around the top from underneath and you should not have sag, especially if you already have an aluminum plate. My table has support all the way around the router plate via it's close proximity to my cabinet case. When I made my top I even sat on it suspended over two saw horses and the thing did not budge. I provided a link to woodpeckers to show you the type plate I have. It is not the router lift just the plate, but it is a good plate, and I like the various rings you can get.
http://www.woodpeck.com/aluminsert.html
bones:NICE looking table! Love the stained glass router panel! With my luck, I would stick a piece of scrap lumber, or my knee, through that work of art in the first week. Thanks for the input and pictures.
Very nice set up.
Thanks. It was a lot of work, but worth it. The wife is learning stained glass and did the artsy stuff.
Bones,
I am thinking of buying the Incra LS Super Positioner system for a router table that I will make myself and I really like the looks of your set up. How do you like the Incra? Would you buy it again? I'm trying to decide on it vs. the Lee Valley fence and sled. Clearly the option to machine cut dovetails is a big factor. Can you use any dovetail bits with the Incra or do you have to buy the bit set that is offered by woodpecker? Also, does the fact the Incra juts out so much become a problem?
Finally, what size router are you using in your table? Would a 2 1/4 hp router work alright or do you really need a 3+ hp router?
Thanks for your advice!
Lyptus
I have some of the older Incra stuff.. I like it for projects that require it.. I use standard El CheapO router bits.... Never had a problem... but that do not make it right!I just make some test cuts in scrap of the wood I'll be using with their template library guides...
Does your Incra set up serve as your basic router fence? Any drawbacks to the Incra products that you use?
- Peter
Any drawbacks to the Incra products that you use?Only that it gets in the way for some of the things I do.. I have a place where I can hang the whole thing up on the wall when I do not use it.I do use it as the basic fence on a router table and on my TS when I use it's features. I have never noticed a problem using it as the fence on my TS. However I would not use it for cutting large heavy panels.Like any of my tools,,, Sometimes it's a pain in the butt and other times I love it..The Right Angle Fixture is trash.. I made my own...
I absolutely love it. If you want to be able to sneak up on a setting that's it. I got it to make some nice boxes with the multilayered dovetails. I made Norm's table just without the fence and used the Incra. My Top is two piceces of 3/4 mdf instead of the 3/4 and 1/2 that his plans calls for. I did not permantely attach to the top. I use two C clamps and can remove it when I want. I have that matched with Wood Pecker's PRL lift. For the router, I went out and got a lot of feedback from users here, and other sites, and went with the PC7518. I have it dedicated to the table. Have not had any issues with the combo. I also like the LS with the dust collection tube. I have that hooked into a Y on the back of the table, and the dust collector does an excellent job of picking up the dust. If you have any other questions, just let me know.
I just purchased the Incra 17" LS Super System. I imagine the larger model would be better for case work but I'm assuming with a bit of planning I could probably still do casework- dovetailing pieces prior to joining them together. Do you think that would be possible. Also- what do you think of the woodpecker lift. I'm evaluating that versus the Mast-R-Lift. I've heard that the Woodpecker takes a lot of turns to raise the bit for changing- is that true and is it a problem? Also- I know a lift is nice but is it really necessary. I think I will get either the 3 1/4 hp Bosch plunge or the Porter Cable 7518. I could obviously save a lot of money by forgoing the lift and I will only be using the table on weekends. Any more advice?
- Lyptus
I did the same comparison with the same two models. I think either would do well. Jessem, had a lot of good feedback. I went with the PRL because of the chain drive .vs. the rubber belt, and the metal top versus plastic. I am not knocking the jessum at all, it was just a personal choice. The PRL comes in two models a 16 and 32. The difference is the thread count. I went with the 32, so I could have the fine adjustment. It comes with a short and long crank. The long crank comes in handy with a fence up close to the bit. It does take a few cranks, but the action is so smooth, it's not been an issue for me. I also really like the brake on the PRL. You have to push in on the crank to get the lift to go up or down, so it will not walk up or down on you. I saw someone somewhere had been using a hand held electric screwdriver to raise and lower to speed it up. Sounds like a good idea. I'm sure the plunge would work, they have a model for plunge rounters, but for me the fixed permanent install fit the bill. I use my PC 890 combo for hand held stuff. Good luck on the decision. If you do decide to go with the PRL, go to the web site and register. They send a sale flyer by e-mail every friday with sales and discounts. Some times they have good discounts on the PRL.
I'll second the Veritas (from Lee Valley) suggestion, but with a twist. If you want to keep the tradition router table design, I'd strongly suggest you consider the Veritas insert plate. (click for info)
Note the universal mounting system. This is what I love about my Veritas table top. Any router will fit, without having to change out plates and such. And this puppy won't ever sag on you!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forestgirl:Thanks for your input! If memory serves me, didn't you set up your router table on an older model (blue) Jet table saw? Or was that your new blade guard? I remember you posting some pics, definately the blade guard, and possibly the router table. If not, what is your router table like?
Hi, SD, actually I posted pics of both I believe. The router table pics are from quite awhile ago, before I put the cast iron wings(!) on the saw. Can be seen here I hinged the table to the saw so I could fold it down for extra floor space. Will probably make a more permanent arrangement this summer, since my floor space situation is somewhat better now.
The LV links are old, sorry. Click here for the Lee Valley woodworking index.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 2/26/2005 7:55 pm ET by forestgirl
Thanks for the refresher. Your floor space situation is better? Add on to your shop? Sell some tools? A magic formula you care to share? That's why I was considering the Benchdog cast iron assembly - to save space. The more I think about it, I am leaning towards a router table top and cabinet, all on wheels. The floor space the cabinet takes up will free up some storage space that my router accessories currently occupy, allowing me to acquire more stuff, and effectively diminish my available space. It's a vicious cycle!
"A magic formula you care to share? " Yep, I cleaned some stuff up, ROFL!! Put some shelves in an already-existing cabinet or two. Got rid of the inside firewood bin. It's an ever ongoing process.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Why would you want a round baseplate? Isn't the rectangular one fine?
The "rectangular one" isn't a basplate, it's a router table top (16" x 24"). The new Veritas baseplate (round, 12"D) is for people who want (or already have) a more traditional router table.
Here's the Veritas Table Top, shown with the fence and mounted on a simple benchtop stand. Here's the Veritas Insert Plate.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
My mistake. I looked briefly at the Veritas Table and thought it was a baseplate. Could you just drop the table into the spot to the right of your tablesaw? I don't know if there would be an advantage to having that big of an insert. Maybe using magnetic featherboards. One problem would be access. The round one you can flip to get at. I'm not sure how easy that would be with the table.
"Could you just drop the table into the spot to the right of your tablesaw?" The table-top is designed to extend beyond the edge of it's base, rather than be "dropped into" a surface the way an insert would be situated. Take a close look at the various pictures on the Lee Valley site.
Also, if you look at my web pages (click) you'll see how I chose to mount it on my table saw. This hinged arrangement isn't permanent, will probably put it on a full-fledged cabinet base, but it works well for what I'm doing now.
"I don't know if there would be an advantage to having that big of an insert." Hah! You're still thinking of it as an insert, eh? That's OK, but it isn't one. I bought mine used from someone who actually did make a top to "drop" it into and then added a regular fence to it. Follows the principle of "why have something that's simple when I can make is so complicated?" ROFL!
"Maybe using magnetic featherboards." You bet! I love 'em.
"One problem would be access." The table is meant to be tilted up when you need access. Actually, I bought an extra base for my Porter Cable, which stays mounted to the table. I slip the motor out from beneath when needed. Yes, the round insert plate provides the more traditional lift-out approach.
My take on the Veritas design, which has been around for quite awhile, is that it was the first(?) to offer two huge advantages: a universal mounting system, obviating the need for a different base plate when you change routers, and a no-sag, perfectly flat material without the weight of cast iron.
Add to that the amazing simplicity of the design, and you have a unique solution to the router-table problem. And it's reasonably priced to boot!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
sawdustmaker,
That scares me...I just swapped out my bench dog for the Rockler 1/4" plate because of sag in the bench dog. I just have a little Dewalt #621. the bench dog was a plastic insert.
If the Rockler doesn't hold up...I'm switching to a sled...and bypass the sag....
BG:I had the Rockler table with my Porter Cable 690 (1-1/2 hp) mounted permanently in it for about two and a half years with no sag. The 3-1/4 hp router was the proverbial "straw".
I had the same problem with my Rockler plate & table. Took it back, they replaced it, now have the same problem less than 6 months later.
I think I will be upgrading to the Benchdog aluminum plate & making my own top.
Edited 2/26/2005 2:29 pm ET by craig
craig:I've had this top for almost three years. Never thought about taking it back or calling. I see they have a larger insert plate now for the bigger routers, but the thickness seems to be the same 1/4 inch.
If I recall correctly, they used to offer a 3/8" aluminum plate a while back. Try taking the unit back or talk to the manager. They will stand behind their products 100%. Its worth a shot. I braced my table top like the manager said, and it is still sagging with a PC8529 under it. A 1/4" aluminum plate should handle the weight w/o deflection if it is of decent quality.
Curious if you used the old plate for the 690? I'm the process of setting setting up a Rockler table and plate for my 7518. Their plate for 7518 is still 1/4" but it's 30% larger (9"x13") vs the one for the 690. May or may not make a difference- I'll find out soon.
jc:Yes, I used the old plate. I did, however, have to drill and countersink some new holes in the aluminum plate. The mounting screw pattern and spacing is entirely different. You have to watch the orientation of the router base, specifically the handles. If the handles are not lined up to meet the diagonal corners of the plate, the plate and router assembly will not lift in and out of the table. I assume that is why they have a larger size plate available. I simply used the router base as a template, drilled the holes, and countersunk each hole from the top side to accept the mounting screws. It's a tight fit, but works. A buddy of mine cut the handles off of his router base to fit in his table. I agree with him in not anticipating using that heavy, powerful router for hand work. I kept my 690 with fixed and plunge bases for that type of work.
Well I'm using the big baseplate; maybe that's the difference? I have the 3.5 HP Milwaukie, which has the same bolt hole pattern as the 7518.
I think the larger plate size may also help spread the load (weight) around..... I hope. Your experience has me a little nervous- hope I didn't waste $120 on the tabletop and plate.
I have the Lee Valley metal router table with a Milwaukee 5620 3.1/2 HP router under it. This router may be the heaviest on the market. I'm not positive of that but it is a hog. I never turn my table over unless I'm cleaning the router or something of that order. The LV table never sags. It was designed not to. Take a look at them. Here's the link;
http://tinyurl.com/47e2o
I also made my own table as well. Good luck.
Phillip
You weight your Milwaukee, I'll weigh the Freud 3-1/2HP sitting in my cabinet! We'll compare pounds.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi, Jamie -I wanted to do just that before I made my comments, but don't really have a way to do so. Ok! I'll take it out of the table tomorrow and weigh it. In truth, I have the table upside down as we speak because I want to clean it tomorrow. The height adjustment is a little sluggish so I'm quite sure it needs a little maintenance. So look for the weigh-in tomorrow. How many rounds is this heavy-weight bout? Ha!I did read somewhere that you have the Veritas set-up as well. How do you like it?BTW, how did your carver friend make out? I don't know if we ever heard.Take care.Phillip
Hi Phillip. See my post above about the Veritas set-up (click here). I still haven't gotten the fence and sled though; using a home-made fence.
Let's see, 25,000 RPM, I guess a bout runs about 250K revs, LOL!
Hmmmmm, let's see, my carver friend. Has to be Ron, but which adventure are you asking about? Oh, the carving tools? Well, he's stuck on power tools right now -- we went up to the Grizzly Showroom in Bellingham last week and he got his band saw and jointer. I'm collecting info for him on the 13" planer/moulder combo. They were "out of stock" on several items, including the belt/disc sander combo he wanted, a work table and a wheeled table.
I guess he'll get back to the carving tools next week!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi, Jamie,25, 000 rpm ... that sounds "a bout" right. Ha! To be honest, I can only go 22K rounds per minute. So, you will have to put up with a slow-poke. Due to lack of training no doubt.OK! I just "weighed in" on the dusty bathroom scale and came in at 12 pounds. I decided to check the Milwaukee website to see if I could pick up a few pounds. They had the 5620 3.1/2 HP listed at 11.8 pounds! I just knew that the bathroom scale was off on the "heavy" side. Ha! Gonna have to back off of the Corona. Darn. So, I guess that just makes it a "mean, lean, routin' machine", wouldn't you say?BTW, I have the Veritas fence and x-sled. One accessory which I find invaluable is the "Micro Adjust" which is not listed in the latest LV catalog. Too bad. There are times when this comes in very, very handy. IMHO, this is superior to making pencil marks on the top and adjusting from that. I have Pat Warner's "The Router Book", which shows a dial indicator used for the same purpose. I use mine on either side of the fence and also to push the x-sled. This works great when setting up to cut finger-joints (or whatever). By "pushing" I am referring to moving the x-sled perpendicular to the fence to get the x-sled exactly where you want it. I'm sure this would work with your fence as well.I took a look at your router table set-up. Very nice. I made my bench very similar to what LV offers except I installed drawers on the lower half rather than doors as they have done. What is that blue material that you use on your TS. It looks like plastic of some sort. If it is that's a great idea because the frictional coefficient is very low on those materials making them ideal for that use. Let me know about this, please.The attached photo shows the "M A" in use on my table. I apologize for the photo enlarging as it does. I have "constrained" it to 4x6 inches but this never works. Nikkiwood gave me a site to go to which would help in this regard but it is out of service as of this morning. This is aggravating, but there is nothing I am aware of that will help.Take care.PhillipP.S. You were only supposed to get one photo but I inadvertently lost your first message which had the photo already attached. So, I started again and attached again, thus the extra photo. I tried to remove one but could not. Do you know how to to this?
Edited 2/27/2005 1:21 pm ET by PhillipB
Phillip, Phillip! I appreciate the effort to attach the photos, but 3MB is way to big for me to download via a dial-up connection! Looks like you forgot(?) to edit them. <grin> See this thread for basic directions. My post is #3.
I gotta run to work. Will reply to the rest, and post a router weight in a little while! See ya!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie, I took some new photos of the Veritas Micro Adjust accessory. And, these are much smaller than what I sent earlier. Sorry!Anyway, you probably already know about this but if you don't I think you'd appreciate what they can do for you.And, BTW, Infranview is not on line. I believe you made reference to this site. Nikkiwood was kind enough to give it to me. I "constrain" my photos to 4X6 but it never does work.Take care,
Phillip
Gotcha! I was hoping it'd just gotten left out of the printed catalog accidentally, but I don't see it on the web site either. Bummer. I might write and ask why they discontinued it (although I'm sure we can guess). Here's the photo reduced to 65 KB. I cropped it, resized it and saved it with a slightly higher compression ratio. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I cannot even find my receipt for the Micro Adjust, paper or electronic. That is so strange because I'm well organized or thought I was anyway.I already emailed customer service at LV, but you're probably right - it's been discontinued. Too bad. I'm glad I have one. I will let you know what they say.Take care,
Phillip
Hi Phillip. I emailed 'em too. BTW, my postal scale was at work, and I forgot to take the Freud with me. Not surprising, since my work has nothing to do with WWing, LOL. So, brought the scale home. Later!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The Freud weighed in at 12 lb 2oz. Whoa! No wonder I don't want to use it "hand-held." Between the weight and the torque, I'd probably go flyin'.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You win! That also means we win since we both have the Veritas top which won't sag under router weight such as ours. Good choice!I have not heard back for LV yet. They are usually pretty prompt. We'll see.Take care.
Jamie,Here is what LV said.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From:
Lee Valley Service <[email protected]>To:
Phillip Anthony BrilesDate:
Mon Feb 28, 2005 04:35:37 PM CSTSubject:
RE: Veritas Micro AdjustThank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, we do not offer the Micro-Adjust for sale as a separate item from our Veritas¯ Router Table Fence, as the Micro-Adjust is calibrated to this set-up to give the amount of movement at the bit, not the fence, when used with our system. It is available to owners of the Veritas¯ Router Table Fence as a replacement part.We hope this answers your question and we look forward to hearing from you again. Sincerely,Dennis Stimson
Internet Customer Service Representative
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Talk to you in a week or so. We're going back to NM to get some good beans and chili.Take care.Phillip
Yep, I got a similar reply.
So, it's standard on the fence. that's great!<!----><!---->forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I too have an aluminum plate(same thickness) on a 1-1/4" MDF but it would be best to build a cabinet to support the weight so it doesnt sag. Good luck.
I have the Veritas insert plate (not the metal table top) and fence and I'm totally satisfied with it. User friendly, adjustable and ¨cheap¨. Plus, it will let you make your table top the size you want/need.
I'd buy it again. I actually changed my Freud SH-5 complete system (top, plate and fence) for this one.
Fred
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