I want to start using raised panel bits on my router, however I am not sure if my router is up to the task.
I have a craftsman professional 2 hp router. Will I need a stronger router? a 3 hp or bigger? I want to raise panels on 3/4 inch mdf and cherry/oak. thoughts?
Thanks!
Replies
It all comes down to, how much can you remove in a single pass. I have a 2 1/4 HP router, pretty much equivalent to yours I guess, and I can swing a big bit. But I'll bog down if I try to do too much at once.
So if you're patient, willing to feed slowly and willing to make several passes, you can do it. Even a 3 HP router won't take off 1/2" deep on a 3" bit in hard wood. You wouldn't even want to do it without a feeder on a shaper.
If your panel raising bit has no back cutter, you can lower the bit, and raise it into the work for successive passes. Make your last pass really light.
If you have a back cutter, you can't lower the bit, so you have to push your fence out, then come in on successive passes. Again, make your last pass really light.
John D - thanks, I was looking for confirmation that 2 HP would work, even with multiple passes, sounds like you've confirmed for me!
If anyone else has more to add, please do so.
Hopefully your router is variable speed, you don't want to swing a panel raiser at 20,000 rpm.
Holy crap, I should have added that too. Good catch.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
If you are doing an occasional panel, what you have is probably fine. If you are planning to do more than that, I'd advise a heavy duty router dedicated to your table. I use a PC 7518 which is "3 hp" and variable speed with a 0.5 inch collet. I would not use a plunge router for this application. I like my table, which is the steel top Veritas- it never sags, that can be a problem in other tables.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Your router is really too small for what you want to do. Also, panel raising bits can only be used in router tables so you will need that also.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Agree 100% on needing to put it in a table, but why do you say you can't do it at all? I know it's slow but it's certainly not impossible, particularly for a small run. (Also, agree with the other poster who points out that if you're doing much of this, moving up is a good idea).My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John D,
Originally I had included a sentence in my posting about using the router he had and taking small passes but this is very rough on the router and, in my experience, the Craftsman routers don't seem to hold up to being pushed hard.
In general, by working carefully and intelligently, you can do a lot of heavy cutting with quality light weight machines, and that is how my personal shop is set up. But in this case, pushing a three inch diameter bit with what is probably a mostly plastic router is not good practice, especially for someone with apparently limited machine experience.
This was a judgement call, based on just the few facts given, and I decided to be conservative with my advice.
John White
I was just interested because I've used these bits on my 2 1/4 Bosch, and it took a while but it was fine. You're a very helpful guy here, generous with useful information and very experienced, thus my curiosity about your reasoning. Thanks!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
JohnWW, you are right, the router is mostly plastic. Its been a great router (I got it at a very low price, which is why I bought it in the first place) but I wanted to make sure it would do the job. Also, I am in the process of building a router table, so I'd be using that to raise the panels.
Based on your recommendations, I am going to upgrade to a 3hp router, since I've wanted one but never could justify upgrading, now I can!
I am looking at the PC 7518. Any suggestions for other choices of a bigger router?
My router table hosts a DW625 3HP VAR. PLUNGE. I prefer the plunge over the fixed base. My router has a Crank handle on it, so height adjustment is done from down under. With the crank handle I can make very fine adjustments easily, It's a little more difficult with a fixed base unless you install a Mast-R-Lift from JessEm. That makes a very Sweet combo with the PC7518. When nickles permit I will be going that "route" also. Safety note a 3" panel raiser running at 23-24K the tip speed of that bit is appx. 220MPH. Scarry!!! I generally run my panel raisers closer to 8-9K Yes thats slower than recommended speed but I can use a slower feed rate, I'am in no hurry and get great results. I'am not a fan of backcutters on a panel raisers, If using 3/4 stock I'll make it a seperate operation. But generally I make the panels out of 5/8 stock and have NO need for backcutting.
Just another point of view for you to ponderWork Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
My router table hosts a DW625 3HP VAR. PLUNGE. I prefer the plunge over the fixed base. My router has a Crank handle on it, so height adjustment is done from down under. With the crank handle I can make very fine adjustments easily,
I have this same setup (excellent router) and have very successfully raised panels. I took small increments and roughly six passes.
The PC has been a long standing mainstay for big routers used in a table, but the Milwaukee 5625 is gaining alot of momentum b/c of it's power and features the PC doesn't have. The new Freud FT3000 has some nice features too, but it's an unknown to most of us.
Not 10 minutes ago, I just raised 2 panels on a new 2hp Freud FT1700 using a 3" cove bit. It's the first time I've done them on that router....I previously used a Freud FT2000 3hp and a Makita 3hp. You definitely have to take lighter passes on the smaller router, but it did it. Once I resigned myself to taking light passes it worked out nicely.
I'd forge on with what you've got. If it works, great....if not, you've got a good excuse to get a beefier router!
Frankly, given the angular momentum of a 3" bit, you should take light passes with any router at about 10,000 rpm. As I posted above, mine is (nominal) 3 hp, and I generally take several passes when raising a panel. A holddown and some feather boards, as well as a sturdy fence are all good ideas as well.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
In my view, a cutter that can't take 90% of its profile in a single pass is too big for any 110 volt router. It was not all that long ago that 1/4 shanks were common and the largest cutting diameter on a 1/2" shank was <2". Your panel cutters were strictly shaper cutters of 4-8" diameter. Reducing these things to router table utility is a compromise and a risk.
I would not use a panel bit in a router or any cutter that swipes as much as 1/2" x 1/2" equivavlent of material in one pass, (i.e, cope & stick bits). I am the contrarian to be sure, but not just for the sake of it. Big cutters beat the hell of themselves and the router and require many passes to complete their profiles.
Many passes = lots of wear, noise, mess and risk. Doors, drawers, and windows common? Consider a shaper; they're designed for all day use and their cutters last 10 x longer than a router bit.
Routers
Routerman - my plan right now is to make about 6-8 raised panels for some wall paneling in my home office. If that goes well, then I'd be interested in making 20-30 more to go throughout some other rooms in my house.
Other than that, I really dont know what else I'd use the raised panel bits for - I dont really have any need to create cabinet doors at this point (although I might in the future).
Would you recommend a shaper for such a short-lived purpose? I like the idea of a router better so I can use it for more projects that would require a router table vs a shaper. What else would I use a shaper for, seeing as I am unlearned in such things?
Also, I'm in no hurry to get the panels raised. If I have to make 3 or more passes to get the panel I'm after that's fine by me.
I'll be the contrarian to Pat's response:
"Big cutters beat the hell of themselves and the router and require many passes to complete their profiles."
This is just not true. A Freud 3-1/4HP router with a Freud 3-1/2" raised panel bit (in a proper router table) will take the full cut in one pass - no problem, no multiple passes needed. Your 2 hp router may or may not be able to run a raised panel bit but none of us can answer that. You will need to check the user's manual to determine the max diameter bit it will accept. A vertical rp bit may be the answer if you are going to stay with the router that you have.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.Edited to add "(in a proper router table)"
Edited 5/12/2006 9:56 am ET by CharlesM
Charles
I'm chiming in here only because many of the guys on this site are relatively new to woodworking, and are going to heed the advice of anybody they think knows what they are talking about.
I've been getting paid to work wood a long time, and have raised quite a few panels with a router table, and now only with a shaper.
Giving the advice of getting a Freud 3 1/4 hp router, 3"+ panel bit, and working the wood in 'one pass' is just not sound advice for anyone, least of all beginners. Your shop tests at Freud America may be able to accomplish this on certain woods in ideal conditions with ideal grain orientation, but giving that advice as a blanket statement for all situations just isn't sound.
Last year, with a 4 hp shaper and a brand new Freeborn panel raiser, I was raising large curly maple panels. We've all done it many times, in one pass. Well, the cutter got to the end of one pass, and ripped a 3" X 5" chunk of maple off the corner of the panel, wizzed it by my head and shoulder, (luckily missing me, obviously, as I'm still here to type this post) and shot it right through the shop wall.
I've also been present when less than new router bits have come apart, and that's not a pretty site as well.
Maybe, just maybe, our advice should error on the side of caution, as John White was doing, and let the new guys raise a few hundred panels with 2 or 3 passes, before putting their lives and limbs in the hands of a hunk of metal spinning at 10,000 rpm's. With some experience on their side, they can then judge how much to push the envelope.
I've never heard of any manufacturer recommending raising a panel using a "router" in a single pass.
My .02.
Jeff
Jeff,I appreciate your words of caution and echo your sentiment: if anyone feels uncomfortable making any cut they should not do it. I would never recommend an operation that is dangerous. I don't "recommend" that the bit be used in one pass, I only make the point that it CAN be done with good results to counter Pat's reasoning for why using one in a router is inherently dangerous. BTW, I have also worked wood for a long time and my experience on this is not limited to "shop tests at Freud". Also, the incident you referred to with a chunk of wood being launched from the end of the cut could have happened no matter how much material was being removed by the cutter since it was most likely due to a defect in the grain of the wood. So if you feel it is safer to make multiple passes then by all means please do so.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Charles
If my previous post was taken as a bit of an insult, then please consider my humble apologies. It was not my intent.
With experience grows confidence, and many of our tools are capable of doing much more than we push them to do. My contention is that for someone new to the craft, to error on the side of caution should be the path chosen, until alot of experience is gained, and he/she can "feel" their way through the process.
I teach a few classes in my shop from time to time, and try to stress keeping all 10 by the end of each day. I'm pretty sure that we'd all agree on that one.
Jeff
Hi Jeff ,
I have to agree with your one pass statement , perhaps on mdf but even on my full size shapers 3hp Powermatic and Davis and Wells multiple passes produce the best results .
My guess Charles feels that his cutters can handle the cut but in the real world that would be the exception rather than the rule .
Imo the op may be better off to out source the shaping of the panels to a professional shop in his area , if he can not justify purchasing a Shaper . He then would not even need to purchase anything . I would imagine a $50 dollar bill would cover his immediate needs .
The one pass statement may be out of context , as far as the thickness of the panel i.e. 9/16" or 13/16" that can make a world of difference .
Typically you get a lot more burns and some other poor results from a heavy single pass , usually .
regards dusty
Dusty
Pretty much all that I was trying to say is being confirmed by the responses here. The guys who have responded with single pass solutions are also the same guys who have experience with raising panels. The original poster stated he was new, and I just don't think anyone unfamiliar with the process, or the potential hazards, should be banging em' out in one pass.
Besides, I think that the finished product will be greatly improved with alot less pre-finish prep work if a second light pass is taken to clean the panel up.
Jeff
The guys who have responded with single pass solutions are also the same guys who have experience with raising panels.
Haha, you're exactly right. I'm very new to this so I'm much more comfortable working in multiple passes. I never feel like I'm risking kickback etc. With experience, I'm sure, will come efficiency. I only kicked in to let the OP know that even a beginner can raise panels with a 2 1/4 HP router, with care... and I know it because I've done it.
Put it this way, by the time my advice will be wrong for him, he'll already know to ignore advice from beginners. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John
I raised panels with a 2 hp PC router for about 10 years, incident free. It's what I had, and I made the best of it. However, I don't recall ever doing them in one pass.
Now, even with the 4 hp shaper, with larger (5 1/2" and 7" panel raising cutterheads) I still save the last 1/8" for a final cleanup pass, which gives me the cleanest cut with no burning.
Jeff
With the 2 1/4 I have no choice but to take multiple passes. If I had the equipment you do, I'd follow your example.
But for now I'm happy to stay in the Amateur power class. I might buy a 3 HP, but I won't be moving up to a shaper any time soon. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Jeff
I understand what your saying in the name of safety but I have probably raised just last year alone, maybe 250 panels with my router table.
I use the PC 7518 VS, and I did almost every one of them with one pass. A lot of alder, very soft wood, some oak(white)and quite a few MDF, a few other spieces as well.
At most I'll run the blanks through the cutter and move it maybe 1/64th to 1/32nd to clean up the cut, but thats it for multiple passes.
I have a shaper but I prefer to do them with the router table, just my preference I guess.
Doug
Hi Doug ,
I think some clarification is due on this topic . The main point is a Raised Panel router cutter with a diameter of about 3" compared to a full size Shaper cutter with a diameter of perhaps 5 1/2" - 7" creates a much smaller detail and removes much less material to do so .
The profiles may be shaped the same but are scaled down versions . So with that in mind , with the correct size router a single pass is doable , a light cleanup pass may be all that is needed .
The full size Shaper cutters may remove twice the material , and for best results require a bit more power to create the profiles in a way that it won't burn your machines or cutters up .
In summary : if you like the smaller profiles produced by Routers cutters even though you may own Shapers , then by all means that is the way for you to go . What customer would know or even care what machine we used to do a particular task .
regards dusty
Lifetime woodworker or done after the 30 doors?
Lifetime woodworker who plans woodworrking on your scale shoule have a small shaper. Safer, power to run all day and cutters that can take "it".
Routers or Shaper
Routerman, thanks for the link, definitely interesting reading. The shaper idea sounds great, but at this point I'm only looking at the 20-30 raised panels, so I'm not sure a $1500 investment in a shaper is for me right now. Are there good shapers for considerably less (say, in the same price range as a powerful router)? If not then I'm probably more inclined to go the router 'route'. : )
That being said, I do plan to continue woodworking after the 20-30 raised panels, its just that I'm not sure how many more raised panels I'd be making after that point...its possible it could be 20-30 more per year, or 20-30 more in my lifetime, just can't say at the moment.
I have a honking big Porter Cable router on a Jessem table, and even that can stall on raised panels (one cut) in maple.
I have taken to making a rough cut with the table saw which removes most of the waste. Because the chips (more like shavings) which come off the Freud panel bit I'm using, a quick first pass with the table saw is not only easier on the router, it gives a cleaner result and a lot less mess.
IMHO,
I would use your current 2 hp router, in a homemade table set up for your particular need. If I have alot of profiles like that to do, I run them through the table saw first, or depending on your profile, you could make a nice clean rabbit with a jointer, and then make a few passes on the router. By the second or third panel, you'll get a feel for what feels comfortable. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A VARR SPEED ROUTER, 1/2 COLLECT WELL TIGHTENED.
At this point, you will know if you need to upgrade. I use a hitachi 3 hp in my table, and I always have taken 2 passes if not more, depending on the material. Remember, your last pass should be light.
IMHO joe p
Edited 5/13/2006 1:38 pm ET by joepez
I have been using a PC 3.25hp router to raise panels for about 15 years. We bought the router because at the time we could not afford the shaper. In the past 15 years we have built many kitchens, mantles, ET centers, and furniture with raised panels. An earlier post stated that router cutters produce a scaled down profile. While this could be the case with some cutters; the cutters we use (LRH)produce a full reveal and full cope and stick cut. So to answer the question, yes, a router can cut good raised panels. I would however consider a 3hp or larger and you must use a table with a good guard.
Thomas
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