Can anyone tell me about machining soft metals – eg brass – with woodworking equipment? Risks, best techniques, any problems?
I know it’s possible to bandsaw brass (it’s part of my dovetail plane-making technique, and it’s only a meat saw anyway), and it can be tablesawn (although I choose not to, so as to avoid ruining my slider) … but what about freehand or table routing?
Playing with the idea of using small cutters to machine fine decorative detail on tools, and maybe even to cut dovetail joints!
And, while I’m on the subject, what’s the best adhesive, brass to wood, steel to wood?
Malcolm
Replies
Malcolm
My limited experience with fine working of metals such as brass is that stuff like angles (relationship of cutter to work) & speed become important. I think that machining brass is relatively easy with the correct tooling but a bit of a nightmare if you were for example to use a router & dovetail bit on brass (ie: you are entering the ballistics field if the bit snatches). Better to invest some of your ill-gotten gains as representative of the people on a small mill/lathe.
As for adhesives epoxy or polyurethanes (eg AV Syntec's AV 510 or 515) will work, as will some of the woodworking 'super glues' (eg Hafele 003.04.000).
Don
Don!
I'll ignore the 'ill gotten' bit.
It's not about money (OK, OK, everything's about money!).
Seriously, I've thought about this a lot. I don't have the time or the inclination to learn a whole new set of skills. Milling is not something I'm going to learn.
But I have been impressed by how well brass bandsaws, and did have a wee go at trimming dovetails with a router on my nearly-finished No 1 size infill.
So, I'm thinking, stuff spinning and milling, I'll do what I know, and route!
But I'd like a heads up on the costs and benefits!
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 2/21/2006 5:51 am ET by Malcolm
Och Malcolm you represenatives of the people are overworked, under recompensed & blamed for everything - I still wonder why I intend to throw my hat in at the next election:-)
The main concern I have is with 'hook angles' on wood working cutters tending to snatch (in my limited experience turning brass a negative or at the least neutral angle of attack works best, a positive rake turning small items can pull itself into the work with enough force to wrench it out of a chuck - I guess if you took very light cuts it may be OK. Recommended cutter rotational speeds for brass are about a third again (135%) that of mild steel.
Don
... and, what about cutting steel with a circular saw? I seem to recall seeing ferrous metal blades for sale at my local big box retailer ... no sparks!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
http://www.jancyslugger.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.showProduct&productid=41
I've seen the Jancy saw demonstrated and it really does cut steel with no sparks. The demo saw cut a piece of 1/2" cold rolled plate as if it were plywood. Jancy was the first of it's kind but Makita and others make a similar saw. There's also chopsaws using the technology.
I know that if I were to try milling either brass or aluminum, I would try to remove as much of the material with other tools (TS, bandsaw, jewelers saw..) and then use the router in light passes1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Good Tip!!!
Sawdust.'It's not a mistake It's a design feature'
Interesting, that Jancy circular saw. If I bought it, it would be my first handheld 220v tool. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Makita, Milwaukee and some of the importers like Northern Tool sell similar saws. The blades are around $50 and I plan to put one on my tablesaw and see how it works. The other saws are 120 volt. I just picked the Jancy at random as I believe they are the first ones to do the innovation. Saw it demonstrated years ago.
Hello malcolm,
I dont have much experience in the metalworking department but I have routed aluminium and surprisingly it machines very well and my router bit is still going strong to this day.I think if you had the router going in to the brass at a high rpm speed but a slow feed speed there shouldnt be any hazards the leading plane makers use cnc machines to machine their planes which is basically a computer guided router and they don't seem to have problems, but like I say I have know experience in the metal working department so I wouldnt know.I was thinking if you could modify a dovetail jig by taking some of the fingers out to make the joints wider which planes tend to have.On the adhesive side I think that people use polyurethane adhesive for that sort of job.
Sawdust.
'It's not a mistake It's a design feature'
I've done a lot of working brass with woodworking tools. I've been cutting non-ferrous for 8 years with great results. For straight cuts it beats the bandsaw handsdown for a mill type finish.
Negative hook blade on the tablesaw is optimum and it's not going to hurt your expensive fancy table saw in the slightest. A full faceshield as the chip are a bit warmer than wood. The router should be covered on the intake with a breathable cloth to keep the chips outas the chips can cause a short in the motor. Very light passes as it can grab a bit bit it's very doable. Freehand isn't recommended.
I can't imagine why you would think it would hurt your slider. You have a totally enclosed motor so that's not an issue. The chips will not get into your bearing or hurt the belt. It's not even a fire hazard as the chips are warm but not even close to hot. I have used the junkiest saw to a slider for cutting brass and prefer to use the better saw for accuarcy. I use an indicator and dial caliper and can cut within a few thousandths for accuracy.
Brass can move more so than wood so it has to be fixtured a bit different when shortening the leg on right angle stock. I typically put a spacer on the fence and work from the inside of the angle. Kind of hard to describe without a photo but when I get home I have some pics of the set up.
Silver brazing is the preferred method of sticking brass to brass or steel. Epoxy is the best wood to metal I've found but it can't beat a mechanical fastener in the long run. Done a lot of brass inlays in table tops with epoxy and always try to provide a toothed edge for extra strength. Silver brazing is stronger than any glue or soft solder. I've repaired broken castings with silver brazing and you would have a hard time finding the repair. It's a bit of an art to master. The solder with cadmium flows better and fill gaps but is deadly without proper ventilation. The flux must be removed with an acid pickle wash.
Edited 2/21/2006 8:05 am ET by RickL
"Kind of hard to describe without a photo but when I get home I have some pics of the set up." Rick, I for one would be greatly appreciative if you could do a thread with info on your brass-milling techniques. I would like to use brass and maybe aluminum in some of my display designs. I realize a table saw with the correct blade will work well, but am more in the dark about router applications.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm not use I understand your sign application. Personally I would avoid using the router if you can buy off the shelf stuff. You can get brass strips you can just cut to length and epoxy in a routed groove. http://www.smallparts.com will sell in very small quantities. I guess that's more what I evision to add to a sign. There's boulle marquetry using metal mixed with woods. Silas Kopf's DVD for $25 covers that pretty well at least for an introductory of various styles.
http://www.lewisbrass.com has a lot of interesting shapes but you need to buy a full 20' piece.
Come to think of it. There's some great metallic paints. Craft stores sell all kinds of leafing type products and http://www.outwaterplastics.com has a lot display trim. Anyway I don't quite understand the sign need and what level of quality or time you want to spend on the project.
Edited 2/23/2006 8:55 am ET by RickL
Qeustions of supply are interesting to me as well!
I've trawled through my 'local' recycler (at Dunedin, 200kms/2 hours 20 mins away) and come home with odd-shaped sheets of 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and 6mm brass, and some nice threaded rod and some finely threaded bolts (for lever cap screws), all for $7 per kg.
I'm shopping around the internet looking for a supplier of small amounts of 3/4 by 3 by 4 inch brass or bronze for lever caps, and so far having limited sucess! From which you can conclude I'm going to try to make my own lever caps
I have managed to find a New Zealand supplier of guage plate steel who will courier to my door (but it's expensive).
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
If you machine brass, be certain of the alloy and other properties. Some is soft & machinable, some hard & abrasive to cutters. Guard your hands as well as eyes. Hot shavings can cause movements you don't intend to make.
Cadiddlehopper
What about shaping brass with say a Lie-Nielsen beading tool?
Anyone tried that?
Malcolm
I know you said that you don't want to have to learn new milling skills but there are drill press vises which clamp the part and have a moving mechanism for advancing the piece for repeated drilling or, with the right cutter, light milling. The cutters are usually high speed steel and have many points around the perimeter. They can be made to whatever angle you want and although drill presses aren't really made to have a side load on the cutter, if there's not a tremendous amount of pressure, it should work for this. For heavy milling, a small milling machine would be better and it's not much different from a drill press with the moving table already installed. Small mills aren't terribly expensive and there's usually something used floating around.
Hmmm - I sort of like the idea of being able to spin metal and mill to shape and dimension, but I'm not sure how much metalwork I'm going to be doing!
I'm getting an enormous kick out of fabbing planes, and the No 1 size Scottish style infill is a wee beaut (photos this coming weekend). I will be making a low-angle mitre and a big panel plane this summer (as long as I can hang onto my workshop - house re build also scheduled), and have some concept sketches for 'the ultimate palm plane'. But then? I won't need any more.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
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