In California, we cannot get denatured alcohol. Will it work to use isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) as shellac thinner?
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Personally I wouldn't the water content is too high.
If you can get the 99% stuff it works. I recall some authority (Jeff Jewitt?) mentioning that it dries slower than denatured, which you can use to your advantage.
I've used it as I bought a lot of 99 (or 95%) isopropanol just prior to Covid for disinfecting and am trying to use it up. Have made some shellac from it. Takes a bit longer to dissolve up and to dry. Not horribly so. Mostly now use the IPA to clean the shellac brush.
Read somewhere DNA is still stocked in border states.
Try some Pure grain alcohol from your local liquor store.
Can't get 190 proof in CA. Illegal.
1. I've used 99% isopropyl seems to take longer to evap.
2. Everclear at the liquor store, expensive but works really good, especially on flakes, evaps quickly.
3. Call Mohawk and see if they will ship Shellac Reducer to you. It's an excellent product if you can get it.
4. Smuggle it from a border state.
Agree with Mohawk recommendation. No methanol. The SDS says CA compliant. The Mohawk web site has a good zip code based dealer locator. I have been using it for years with excellent results
We don't have it in Ontario either, so I use e-NRG Bioethanol Fireplace Fuel. It's for decorative, unvented fireplaces. Labelled as 100% alcohol blend of ethanol (ethyl) and isopropyl (isopropanol). It comes in a gallon jug for the equivalent of $30USD here.
It’s available in Ontario, it’s called methyl hydrate and I have been using it for a long time. https://www.homedepot.ca/product/solvable-professional-grade-methyl-hydrate-946-ml/1000130947
I looked up methyl hydrate' MSDS it is just another name for methanol. Methanol is the only ingredient listed (99.9% pure), so compared to Denatured Alcohol this is pure methanol no ethanol and should be more hazardous than Denatured Alcohol.
Methanol can be toxic by inhalation. You have to get a lot so in any reasonable use it's unlikely to be a problem, but I'd be leery of using pure methanol. It's much less of an issue with DNA. No reason why it would not work for shellac though.
It has worked for me and for others for as long as I can remember, I tried a pint of shellac thinner from a art store once and could not tell the difference other than the price. Ethanol also has some toxicity and on a scale of 1 to 4, 4 being the highest , it rates as 2 where methanol rates as 3 but there is more to the story as this is a general rating. Reading the MSDS made me realize that I should wear gloves when using it and I just got a 3M mask with cartridges for organic vapors that I use for mixing epoxy, I will now wear it for methyl hydrate too. Most of the shellac I use is made by Zinsser and the msds states ethanol as their solvent with less than 3 % methanol so that is a relief.
In regards to gulfstar's comments I would agree with his protective precautions, but interestingly when I asked 3M about organic vapor cartridges and methanol their response was to use supplied air respirators as the organic vapor filters were rapidly made ineffective. 3M has a site (https://sls.3m.com/) to determine the time a cartridge will last for a given hazard under several different conditions.
While accidental inhalation toxicity does occur, it does not appear to be common. I agree that denatured alcohol (though the concertation of methanol is highly variable in DNA) when used with good ventilation is not likely to be a problem. There are a few reports though of environmental exposure in industry and laboratory settings that were toxic. Unfortunately, what the concentrations of methanol or time of exposure were not available. Some case's exposure were over a long time period. There is one documented instance of someone making at home (not using) perfumes made with methanol having illness. I did not see any reports of illness in people using it in furniture finishing.
I requested a copy of the MDS for e-NRG Bioethanol and below are the contents:
Section 3: COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Ethyl Alcohol (CAS #64-17-5) 80 - 100% Concentration
Isopropyl Alcohol (CAS #67-63-0) 1 - 20% Concentration
I have used it with excellent results.
There have been several posts on this. Apparently it is still available, but not in the big box stores? Look up those posts.
I rarely do this, but I spent way too much time on this post to not mention it.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2022/03/21/where-to-buy-denatured-alcohol
Thanks Ben. There's no sense reinventing the wheel.
I wish that article would have helped me. I did read it, because I started by searching the FW website. Unfortunately, DNA is not available anywhere in my area and anyone who still has some will not ship to my ZIP code. I am currently removing badly damaged finish from an Chinese piece made for export in the 1930s. I have found that isopropyl alcohol does well for shellac removal. I still have enough DNA to cut my shellac for spraying or using in an air brush. I think I will buy a quart of 99% isopropyl alcohol and cut some SealCoat in the future and see how that works. If anyone has already done that, please let me know what your experience has been.
I used isopropyl with good effect. Just experimenting to see if it gave a better result, but it is more or less the same. I did not notice a longer drying time but did not compare.
Check out Amazon for
Ethyl Alcohol 99.5% Denatured 40-B 200 Proof Alcohol by Natural Cosmetic Labs | Made in The USA | Gallon
Cost is $40/gallon; cheaper than just about anything else and, while denatured, is very nearly pure ethanol.
This is available for shipment to CA, at the moment at least.
Mixing shellac is chemistry. If you don't have good ingredients, the end product won't work as well.
Instead of using just any alcohol solvent, you might want to try one made for the specific purpose.
https://www.shellac.net/solvents_thinners_reducers.html
California legislature is deeply effected by wokeness and many, many products are not available for shipment to California. I ran into it over a fuel pump! for my truck. I could get it from Chevrolet for hundreds of dollars more but they were back ordered anyway. The after market part I could get was of dubious origin and I've been burned on that before so that's out! Every website said " can't ship to California" so I hunted by phone and finally someone said "we're in Texas and we could give two s** ts!" and sent it to me. Find yourself a Texan!
One of my favorites here is I'll go to by a gallon of something and they aren't allowed to sell me a gallon so I ask for four quarts, no problem!
If you search Amazon if it can't ship to California they comply and no out of state site using Amazon will ship if you do it through a website....but by phone?
I don't want to get political, but it's not what I would call wokeness.
It's California Air Resources Board or CARB and other state regulations regarding toxic chemicals. Unfortunately, we need regulations because some people and companies can't use or dispose of chemicals properly.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like clean water and air. So if I have to shop around a little because of some idiots, it's worth it to me.
Just my personal opinion
DDT and leaded gas worked great!
Clean water and air aren't "woke." They're smart and sensible.
Interesting, Merit industries that supplies everything shellac( from ewebers post) has a home address of Napa CA! Problem solved! Can't get it in California--- but then you can! Pretty typical!
Regulations in California that are supposed to be protecting people are really just geared to make it difficult for the people they CAN have power over. Like mooches such as myself! I can't buy a pound of plastic resin glue but if I want a 300 lb barrel I can just buy it. They beat up the couple of hundred people in this county that actually do heat with wood and do little to nothing about the Tosco refinery. I can't get a rat poison that kills rats but they are literally bombing the Farallons with it. It is all for show or money. This week I'm doing a Woodcraft order..Arm r Seal "cant ship to California". I go to a local store and there it is on the shelf! We,the town,want to remove some dangerous eucalyptus trees . $200,000 in studys and permit fees ! It's like a dozen trees that never should have been in the first place!
Seems to me like you ought to be working to make sure those with deep pockets should be made to comply with the same intelligent regulations as rest of us, rather than eliminating the regulations entirely.
In my lifetime I've seen rivers so badly polluted they were literally on fire. I've seen air in cities so choked with smog that people couldn't leave their homes for days at a time. And people slowly dying of cancer from chemicals they couldn't see or smell.
Regulations have made all our lives immeasurably better. If that means it's a little harder -- or even impossible -- to get my first choice for a wood finish, it is still absolutely worth it.
Being unhappy or inconvenienced by progress doesn't mean it isn't still progress.
“[Deleted]”
Back to the OP's question, the reason/s you shouldn't substitute rubbing alcohol are.
1. it can contain water, dissolving and evaporation will take longer
2. It is not as high of proof as DNA, which can cause the flakes to clump and not fully dissolve.
Rubbing alcohol DOES contain water, 30% worth. Water and shellac don't like each other !
Rubbing alcohol is typically 70% isopropyl alcohol (some 65%) and the rest is water. They can't go much higher as it would damage tissue.
DNA is typically ethanol with some amount of denaturant, usually isopropyl added to make it undrinkable. Without the denaturant it is taxable as drinking alcohol. They used methanol in the distant past, but its much more toxic than iso. Some brands add a compound to cause a bitter foul, taste. The ratio of eth to iso can vary, probably according to the relative price.
Methanol is quite toxic, isopropyl is somewhat less toxic. Ethanol can be either nontoxic or toxic - depends entirely on the dose !
For the record, I have a gallon of 99% isopropyl coming Saturday. I will see how it works out. Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions.
in NC - I can still get DNA in big box stores. I, however, switched over to Diesel 190 grain alcohol. I enjoy whenever a project gets to the finishing stage.
I am not familiar with Diesel 190 grain alcohol. Where do you get it?
ABC Stores
So Diesel 190 is the brand. In Florida the liquor stores I have tried only have Everclear 151. Thanks for the info. Next time I am in NC I will get some there.
Diesel 190 would be 95% ethanol, 5% water.
Everclear 151 is 75.5% ethanol, 24.5% water.
I never understood why the booze industry chose to use the proof system rather than simple percentage...........oh, yes I do - marketing. Twice as large a number must be better!
In NC you might also find Everclear 190.
I’m in SoCal and struggled to find DNA, until I began looking in pro paint shops.
I buy mine at a number of different places. Ben Moore and Sherwin Williams are my go tos.
But, I use 99% iso alcohol when I need to rush the drying time.
In the Atlantic provinces of Canada, drug stores sell 99% iso for about 30% more expensive then the 70% stuff. It is about a 3rd of a gallon or a bit less for about 10 bucks. The 70% stuff is useless, but the 99% stuff worked fine for me. It did not dissolve flakes as fast as straight EtOH but it dissolved them in about double the time when I use it. Some folks up here have been known to use Coleman fuel but I have not tried that.
Don't use Coleman fuel to thin shellac:
Historically called white gas, it is a liquid petroleum fuel (100% light hydrotreated distillate), composed of cyclohexane, nonane, octane, heptane, and pentane.
Old thread revived by spam.
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