Replies

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 22, 2007 07:26pm | #1

   When you sand or use steel wool, you are scratching the surface. That's what sanding is. Sanding with 400 and/or 600 grit will turn a gloss surface into a satin surface. Continue up to 1200 grit and you will get a semi-gloss surface. To get back to a gloss sheen, you have to sand to 1200, then use a polishing compound to polish the surface to a gloss sheen. It's best to use a power polishing machine to apply the polishing compound. Finish off with a swirl remover.

   Wax will not add any sheen unless the underlying surface is already polished.

   Howie.........
1. 
   BG | Jul 23, 2007 12:28pm | #5

   Howard,
   After I read your response I went down and used some 1000, 2000 grit WD on the experimental wood. I can see what your saying that if I continue up to swirl-free compound I'll more than likely be back to where I started. However, where I started is not what I was hoping for as an outcome. Maybe my last coat of varnish should have been a satin...The piece reminds me of my reading glasses and if I had washed then with soap and water, dried them, and then took my thumb to the lens....it just looks dirty no mater how much I rub.

2. 
   mudman | Jul 22, 2007 10:10pm | #2

   I have not heard of leveling or rubbing out a non-evaporative finish. Acrylics are very hard finishes and do not polish well, it is still possible, but very difficult.

   If you are using real varnish (not an acrylic) the hardness is still an issue, but another bigger issue will be that the surface takes a long time to get good and hard. When it is soft the surface will haze, but when it gets hard the surface will show scratching too easily.

   I would recomend that you apply another coat of finish that is very thin. Use 30% or more thinner if it is an oil based varnish to get it down to a whole milk like thickness. Then brush on a very thin coat, dipping only the tip of the brush, and it should level out to perfection. The sanding you have done so far will really make the finish coat flow out nicely. Also do every thing you can to keep dust off the surface for at least 5 hours. Then you can use a #0000 steel wool to remove any dust particles. If you are after a nice "hand rubbed" finish you willl be dissapointed, that effect can only be done with evaporative type finishes (Shellac and Lacquer). You can get close by using high gloss for the first coats and a satin or semigloss on the final finish coat.

   Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 23, 2007 04:59am | #3

   Let me make a couple of points.Any finish can be "rubbed out". Some are easier than others. The harder the finish, the easier it is to rub out. Evaporative finishes like lacquer and shellac dry the hardest, followed by waterborne acrylics and then by oil based finishes. The finishes that will rub out the best as they are the hardest. Arylics also dry quite hard and can be easily rubbed out to a high gloss. Oil based finishes are variable. A short oil varnish like Behlens Rockhard, Pratt&Lambert, McCloskey Heirloom and Sherwin Williams will dry very hard and therefore rub out well. Most difficult to rub out are long oil exterior varnish like marine and spar varnish These finishes are forulated to be soft and flexible so they maintain adhesion under exterior conditions. Poly varnish is also a soft, flexible finish. Because of their softness, they can be problematic to rub out.All oil based finishes need to be allowed to fully cure before attempting to rub out. This can take 3-4 weeks. Even after being fully cured, long oil, exterior finishs can be problematic when attempting to rub out. In general, the highest gloss is that which comes right off the brush. It will never be any glossier than that.Howie.........

1. 
   mudman | Jul 23, 2007 09:09am | #4

   That is what I said.....

   The issue with varnish is that it is slow to get hard. But there is another issue and that is how the finish sands. There are some very hard finishes out there (acrylics for example) that polish out very poorly. When you sand Shellac or Lacquer they shed off as a nice dust, other finishes dont work like that. If you sand a cured Acrylic or a Conversion Varnish and instead of the powdery dust you get lots of scratches that are very hard to remove with the next grit. And fully cured Varnish is a lot harder that Shellac. Obvoiusly Spar and long oil Varnish is softer. It cracks and flakes where Shellac and most Lacquers are softer and flexible.

   If you look at the KCMA and AWI data for these products you will see the hardness differences.

   But regaurdless of all that stuff Polishing out Varnish is definately not the usual proceedure. Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

2. 
   BG | Jul 23, 2007 12:42pm | #6

   Mudman,
   I did sand between the five coats of Waterlox...a progression from 220 to 600 so leveling was not an issue when it came to rubbing out, just the gloss part. I was hoping for a Stickley finish where the shinyness is gone but the piece is clear and smooth.

1. 
   mudman | Jul 23, 2007 09:04pm | #7

   Right, sanding between coats is allways a good thing, that is why you have a nice level finish. Try applying a final very thin and light satin coat and I bet you will like the result. It will have the clarity because only the top thin coat is diffuesed by the flattening agents.Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

1. 
   Yersmay | Jul 24, 2007 03:45pm | #8

   BG,I wonder if you've been a bit aggressive in your attempts to flatten the finish, both between coats and in your rubbing out process. 400 is a pretty aggressive grit to be using on a finish, and I notice you said you built up 'thin' coats of Waterlox. (Waterlox, by the way, is a phenolic varnish and it should cure nice and hard and buff up great.) My suggestion -- sand very lightly between coats using 800. All you want is to knock off dust particles and nibs. Between coats, it isn't necesary to really flatten the finish evenly. When it comes time to buff out (at least a month of cure time) begin with 800 using water is a lubricant. Go easy using a light touch, using long strokes that go with the grain... dry off the piece frequently to take a look at how evenly you've dulled the finish. When you have things evenly dulled, step up to 1000 grit and polish with that... again long strokes lightly and evenly, still using water as a lubricant. Sometimes the surface can get so smooth that suction will grab the paper. If that happens it helps to use a bit of wax and oil free rubbing lubricant with the water, a thick soapy-like solution you can get from a finishing supply house. Then I would use an Abralon disc... a pad made of microfiber that sticks on your random orbit sander. If you'd like a satiny sheen, use a 2000 grit. Spray the piece with water (the disc needs a lubricant) and polish. This will polish out your linear scratch pattern and replace them with tiny, random scratches. Don't over-do... keep drying and checking... While it's true that any scratch pattern will 'cloud' absolute clarity, it shouldn't make your piece look murky. As always with finishing, use a test piece first to keep blood pressure under control. Good luck!

1. 
   BG | Jul 24, 2007 05:33pm | #9

   Yersmay
   Thanks for the routine, I'll try it on the test piece.It's fairly similar to what Howard was suggesting.
   I did sand lightly between applications, realizing I was not dealing with shellac and afraid of sanding through a finish layer.
   I don't know what the different kinds of varnish are or what they mean in terms of process or outcome. I like using a wipe-on, I don't have spray equipment so my choices are quite limited. Perhaps I need to hit the books a bit.

2. 
   Yersmay | Jul 24, 2007 07:34pm | #10

   BG,A wipe on finish is nice but there is a disadvantage, particularly when you're planning to rub out. The layers are quite thin and you run more of a risk of a 'witness line'... a visible demarkation between coats. If the landscape of your piece is flat -- meaning there aren't a lot of tough details, and it's the type of piece that would accomodate a higher build -- then you might consider brushing the varnish. That takes practice and technique but it's very satisfying. It's worth buying an expensive brush made just for this... probably have to hunt it down on the internet. If you rub out with the wipe on, thin layered version of your finish, I'd do a little research on something if I were you. As I think about it, I would be cautious of using all that water I described earlier as a lubricant. With such a thin finish, I would be afraid some of it may migrate through the finish and you'll end up with milkiness, a symptom of water penetration. This may be a needless worry, but I think it would be a good question for someone like Jeff Jewitt. Google him and find his forum. He's a real expert.

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 24, 2007 10:03pm | #11

   I have been using wipe-on varnish for 20 years and never had a witness line issue when rubbing out. If you re-coat with an oil based finish and apply it within 4-6 hours, you will never get any witness lines. While the thinners have evaporated and the surface is dry, the real curing is just beginning. A new coat applied before the curing gets fully underway will result in the melting together of the films. However, if you wait more than 12 hours to re-coat, then witness lines are possible.The proper way to apply a wipe-on finish is to re-coat as soon as the prior coat is tack free.Also, final rubbing out should not need to be agressive if you have properly applied the coats of finish. Apply the first two coats and let them fully dry for 24-48 hours. At this point, sand with 320 paper mounted on a flat sanding block to flatten the surface. If you go through the finish at this point don't worry about it. The objective is to get the surface flat. Now apply 4-6 additional coats of wipe-on without letting more than six hours go by between coats. Now, if you plan to rub out--and rubbing out shouldn't be necessary unless you want to reduce the sheen--let everything dry for at least a couple of weeks (four is best particularly if you use a poly varnish).Howie.........