Replies

1. 
   chamfer | Oct 29, 2007 06:00am | #1

   Chuck,

   Unless the Auburn Tool Company changed their numbering system (which isn't unheard of), according to their 1869 Price List, their No. 180's were regular hollows and rounds. The table planes are included among "Miscellaneous Planes," and are listed as:

   185 Table Planes with gauge, 1/2 to 5/8 inch, per pair ... $1.00
   186 Table Planes with gauge, 1/2 to 5/8 inch, per pair, Boxed ... $1.50
   187 Table Planes with gauge, with fence ... $1.40
   188 Table Planes with gauge, with fence, Boxed ... $2.00

   H&R's do not have a spring angle, though they can be held at various transverse attitudes in order to cut where you wish them to. If your planes are of the table plane variety, the profiles are usually more than a 60 degree arc and tend to be centered in the width of the body of the plane. The profiles of regular H&R's are usually offset toward the escapement side, and usually contain about 60 degrees of arc (width of profile tends to equal the radius which defines the arc).

   In the case of creating the (more than) quarter-round of a rule joint, establishing the fillet, or sinking, first with a rabbet or moving fillister plane is the first logical step. You then may wish to plane a chamfer along the resulting arris, which should provide a good guide for using the hollow plane to create the convex profile.

   The "cove" portion of the rule joint can be formed with the round plane, which can be guided by first creating a rabbet which is wide and deep enough to nearly intersect the desired concave arc near its midpoint. Assuming your round plane is of the appropiate sweep, when the last evidence of the inside corner of the rabbet is removed, you should be very near your desired profile.

   In both cases, the desired profiles are wider than the soles of your planes, so you will need to rotate them transversely as you proceed to achieve the desired results.

   Hope this helps a little.

   Don McConnell
   Eureka Springs, AR

1. 
   ChuckNewcomb1 | Oct 29, 2007 06:28am | #2

   Thanks for the info Don. Your posts are most informative from what Ive read of them. I must be mistaken in thinking that they were table planes. They seemed to me to be shaped differently than my other various makers H&R's. Here are a few others whose purpose I'm stumped on as well. Obviously the one has an integral fence and maker is ?? Wells/Trenton. It seems early, but not sure. Thanks,
   Chuck

   
1. 
   chamfer | Oct 29, 2007 09:07am | #3

   Hi Chuck,Your ? Wells/Trenton plane may be somewhat early. If it is R. Wells/Trenton, it could be as early as 1820, but might be as late as circa 1860. If it is E. G. & R. Wells/Trenton, it could be as early as about 1820 to 1840. Either way, your mark has a three star (very rare, 50 to 100 examples) rating in Pollaks' _American Wooden Planes_.It does appear that your pair of Auburn H&R's may have been modified - possibly for use as rule joint planes? I see yours are marked with the number "8", but am not sure exactly what pattern Auburn followed. However, the 1920 Ohio Tool Company catalogue has a list of "Auburn Pattern" H&R sizes, unfortunately not by number, which may be of some help.Width of Iron, inches...........................1/4.....3/8.....1/2.....5/8.....3/4......7/8
   Size [diameter] circle worked, inches...1/2.....5/8.....7/8...1 1/8...1 3/8...1 3/4Width of Iron, inches.............................1.....1 1/4...1 1/2...1 5/8...1 3/4...2
   Size [diameter] circle worked, inches.....2.....2 3/8...2 3/4...3 1/4...3 3/4...4If you measure the width of the bit of your irons and compare the radius/diameter of the soles with those given in this listing, it should give you a better idea as to whether they have been modified or not.Don McConnell
   Eureka Springs, AR

1. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Oct 29, 2007 07:16pm | #4

   Don, would you by so kind to explain "spring angle" for us iron bound planners who would like to better use the woodies that they own? Thanks, Paddy

1. 
   chamfer | Oct 30, 2007 06:04pm | #5

   Paddy et al,Sorry I've been so slow responding to your question concerning "spring" or "spring angle" in the context of moulding planes. In brief, some moulding planes are intended to be held at a lateral angle (rather than straight up and down) while being used to stick a moulding. Such planes are said to be used "on a spring." Typically, they are marked on their toes with a pair of crossing scribed lines ("spring lines") to indicate the orientation at which the plane is intended to be held during use. I've created a couple of drawings of two different types of moulding planes (ogees and ovolos), in which the plane on the left does not work on a spring, while that on the right does. The spring lines are indicated by the crossed lines on the toes of the planes.http://www.planemaker.com/photos/spring1.gif/http://www.planemaker.com/photos/spring2.gif/Obviously, the question arises as to what this accomplishes. For one thing, a sprung plane will tend to have a more uniform mouth opening across the profile. Considering the fact that the bed and breast surfaces of the wedge mortise and escapement converge as they descend through the body of the plane, the farther up any portion of the cutting edge is, the more open the mouth will tend to be at that location. If you look at the two drawings with this in mind, I think it will become obvious that the two unsprung planes have more variaton in the "height" of various parts of the cutting edge.Another consideration is the cutting geometry of these moulding planes. The portions of these mouldings which are vertical, or nearly vertical, tend to result in a cutting geometry which more nearly approximates a scraping cut. Holtzapffel describes this as having a "drag" or "drag effect," and suggests that a plane working on a spring will tend to overcome this to some extent. Until I began working on this reply, I tended to accept Holtzapffel's explanation, but, now I'm not so sure. After looking at my drawings and thinking about the cutting geometry, I'm just not convinced that the spring actually changes it all that much. I'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.A related thing the spring accomplishes, though, has to do with maintaining the profile of the iron during sharpening and the effect of adjusting the iron for various thicknesses of cut. If the wedge and iron are perfectly vertical in the plane, and the plane is not sprung, any sharpening of the portions of the cutting edge which cut the vertical elements of the moulding will have to be done with extreme care. Go too far, and you will have to shorten the entire cutting edge far enough to create a new edge at these locations. In line with this, any element of the moulding which is truly vertical (such as the sinking, or small fillet, at the top of both the ogee and ovolo mouldings), presents a specific issue when it comes to adjusting the iron. The depth of cut of these vertical elements won't change as you adjust the iron to take a deeper cut along the rest of the cutting edge. A leaning wedge/iron would help with this, though.Sprung planes make it somewhat easier to sharpen such irons in the sense that a small discrepancy in sharpening any port of the cutting edge will only require a similar adjustment of the rest. Also, when adjusting for depth of cut, the impact of such an adjustment will tend to be more uniform across the entire cutting edge.Not all profiles lend themselves to planes which work on a spring - beads and nosings come to mind. If you have any doubt, though, check for spring lines on the toes of your planes, and/or check the orientation of the fence and depth stops for clues.Hope this helps a little.Don McConnell
   Eureka Springs, AR

2. 
   mwenz | Oct 30, 2007 08:30pm | #6

   Thanks for the drawings, Don.

   In addition to the plane construction and sharpening issues, I think Don's graphics also illustrate use issues of sprung and non-sprung planes.

   As for scraping cuts, I think mainly it is the edge of the iron that forms the fillet (in both graphics). This can be taken care of by beveling that edge, but I think that is the only scraping cut on the illustrated profiles.

   Using either of the graphics, the sprung planes have an inherent design feature--keeping the plane evenly pressed into the stock. Complex molders such as these would be more difficult to maintain contact while in use without being sprung.

   fwiw, I have always thought an unsprung plane of working from the edge of a board as opposed to from the face of a board.

   Take care, Mike

3. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Oct 31, 2007 02:09am | #7

   Don, many thanks, your explanation is crystal clear. I checked my woodies (all compass, skewed fillisters, dovetail and h&r's) no marks of course. You have re-greased the slope as I will look for a nice ogee. Who knows , I may retire my herd of #45 & 55's. All the best, Paddy

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

4. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Oct 31, 2007 04:56pm | #8

   Paddy,

   If you do retire them, let me know about the 45 & 55's!

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

5. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Nov 01, 2007 05:28am | #9

   Bob, would you sell or abandon one of your children who you have nurtured for decades? I do have enough parts to put together a few of each as users but the kids will go to my middle daughter. I have a few set up to do  fixed tasks(they ARE a PITA to set up).

   Funny that this has come up as just today(I am in Tenn for the holidays and setting up the lathe, jointer, tool organization  and I did bring down two pots  and my small kitchen mandolin on this trip) I realized that to replicate the screen moldings on the very old country screen door that I am rehabbing, I only have #104 from the #55 set that comes close-- a #114, a 3/4 "wide  1/4 round with bead might be better. but I will try mine out or try a multiple pass of cutters -for the first time- if  nothing looks decent. I was NOT going to put a high tech screen door on a cedar farmers ranch house so I found a door (? circa 1920?)  for $25. It is solid as a rock with 2/3 upper screen and lower broken into four 9x11  screens with another full stile. All this means is that I need a raft full of old style screen mouldings. All the best, Paddy

6. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Nov 01, 2007 03:16pm | #10

   Hi Paddy,

   would you sell or abandon one of your children who you have nurtured for decades

   No way man!  I hear you loud and clear on that one.  I have some planes that I think of the same way, especially my #45, the #78, #98 & #99 and some transition planes that I've been rehabbing.

   Some others were given to me and those are in my will to be returned when I pass on to Woodworking Heaven.  As to the rest I'm not sure.  I've thought of donating them to the local school but they, in their infinite wisdom have decided to eliminate the woodshop course(s).

   Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!