Rust removal by electrolysis, is it hard
GregV
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I have been given a couple of old Stanley planes and am in need of removing the rust from them. I have heard that using electrolysis is the preferred method for removal. Anyone out there have first hand experience and is willing to share the procedure? Does this have a detrimental effect on the jappaned finish? Thank you very much.
Greg Alexander.
Replies
do a search on "electrolysis" or contact planewood (i think) as he uses this method to fix up old planes as a business. i think i'm going to give the method a try using an old battery charger i've got laying around. do a google search as well, a while ago i found an informative site that a college researcher had put up with extensive detail on using electrolysis to gently remove rust from iron-age tools found at archaeology dig sites. the technique is the same that people use on plane bodies.
I tried it once, Greg. I works but for me it seemed to take quite a long time. You need to find the right kind of material to put into solution in order to induce the current flow - I read that washing soda was best and finally located some in one of our local grocery stores. I forget the proportions - soda to add to x amount of water.
I'd suggest not doing the plane iron, though since the process seems to erode sharp edges quicker than large flat areas. It leaves quite a jagged edge on the sharp edge of the iron.
I used my battery charger. It's kinda whimpy so perhaps a larger one with more current capacity would work better/faster. But be careful with that DC stuff!
GregV
I used it a few times. It is slow. Only tip I have is to use a large piece of metal for the sacrificial iron. Also. as soon as you are done, you need to put some protective coating on it or the "new" surface will re-rust pretty quickly. The new surface isn't necessarily smooth, either.
Depending on how rusty, physical removal might be better?
Check out my shoulder plane resurrection photos. Sanding flat surfaces, and steel wool in the places you can't sand, produces an OK finish.
It won't 'restore' a plane, and if you've got japanning to conserve then I guess any abrasive is a no no.
'Conservation' is quite another story. Remember the appraiser's lament - any alteration of heritage surfaces greatly degrades an item with heritage values.
But if you want a smart-looking workable tool, then forget 'original' and re-make!
Malcolm
This is a timely question...I picked up a nice vintage Disston crosscut saw at a swap meet last weekend (for $4!) and I've been thinking about using electrolysis to remove the fairly minimal rust on the blade. The thing I'm wondering about is whether the treatment would damage the Disston logo that's etched on the blade, which is still in pretty good condition on this saw.
Stuart
Another suggestion - some coarse wool cloth (an old blanket) and wax polish - rub vigorously. It will diminish the rusty appearance, won't take away anything you want to keep, and will render the saw useable.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Nice buy. I'm not sure how the Disston logo was etched, but I've unfortunately found that the black color to the etch is easily removable! I wouldn't try electrolysis unless someone with real experience said it was safe. Some of the folks over at owwm.com are near-gurus on electrolysis and there's a good FAQ on it.Pete
I used electrolysis on a couple Disston saws I picked up at garage sales. Used baking soda and a car battery charger with a piece of rebar for the sacrificial anode. It worked pretty well and didn't take the etch off.I don't think I would bother with the electrolysis if I had to do it again. Maybe just some mineral spirits and steel wool to get the worst dirt and grime off. Then sharpen her up, wax it and start sawing. The act of using the saw will take care of any remaining rust.Steve
Edited 10/26/2005 11:16 pm ET by Schulz
Greg -
24 hrs is sufficient if you can get the current up to about 0.1 amp (100 milliamps) per square inch of total surface area (25 amps for a #8 plane). That's counting both the inside and outside of the plane. That rate will strip off the Japanning. Any electrolysis will loosen the japanning. If your running 50 milliamps per sq inch, then double the time. I use 1/2 cup of baking soda per 10 gallons of water. The anode should totally surround the plane at an equal distance away(3-6 inches).
If you don't want to mess with it, then that is what I do! :)
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
24 amps for 24 hours? What is your electicity bill like?
That's on the low voltage DC side. On the 120V AC side it is only about 3 amps. Or, in 24 hrs it amounts to about 10 Kilowatts which equates to about $1 per day.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Guys: Doesn't this process create hydrogen and oxygen gas'? Someone mentioned ventilation but what about sparks from connecting/disconnecting the power source?
Not paranoid just cautious.
DukeKenneth Duke Masters
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Oh yeah, electrolysis should be done outside due to the hydrogen gas released by the process. :) I thought that was understood!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
24amps at 24 volts =576watts or.576 kw
24hrs at.576kw=13.824kwh
invirginia, where I live 1kwh cost about 7 cents for a total cost of about 98 cents- not too unreasonable!
I am more concerned about the rounding and the uneven surfaces.
Holy Cow! Here in Houston this summer I've been paying 13 cents per KWH.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
That's 24 amps at 12 volts, about 300 watts, not the 3,000 it would be at 120 volts.
John w.
You have heard well. It is a gentle ,non mechanical way of removing rust without etching the surface. It works well on items like plane bodies, saws, castings i.e tools made from one piece of metal. The japanned finish will be safe only if it is in good condition-same applies to nickel platings.
You require a 12 volt car battery charger, a plastic bath big enough to submerge the parts in , a piece of stainless steel for the positive electrode, some water and some sodium carbonate aka washing soda powder.Your electrolite is a 1% solution of H2O and the soda.Item is submerged in bath, having attached the negative lead of the charger to it. At no time should the stainless steel and the item contact each other, and be sure to connect the correct way round.Fire up the charger and if it has an ammeter you would like to see a reading of 3 to 6 amps or so. You can vary the current by changing the distance between the electrodes. It is quite safe, but be sure of good ventilation, wear eye protection when fiddling with the electrodes and only make changes when there is no current-in other words use common sense sans paranoia.
You cannot overdo it-usually an overnight session does the trick. You need to ensure evenness by rotating the item about half way through he process.
The beauty is that this process gets into difficult to reach areas, and also does small parts which may be delicate.
It is cheap to run-12 volts at 4 amps for 24 hours is nothing....
Edited 10/22/2005 3:16 am by philip
Never heard of that procedure -- do you mean you pay for your wife to have electrolysis done to remove unwanted hair, while you use steel wool to clean off the rust?
Electrolysis won't undo pitting caused by rust, you will have to flatten the tools. Might as well remove the rust at the same time. I would use sandpaper on a flat substrate (glass, or TS top) and sand away the rust while flattenning the sole and sides.
Pondy, one of the many useful attributes of the process is that it gets where your fingers and other tools cannot reach. Also rust can be very hard sorry I keep forgetting that some folk just love sanding things.Philip Marcou
Reaching nooks and crannies is a reason to use electrolysis, sure. But the working parts of a plane include the sole and sides; electrolysis will not fix the pitting caused by rust and you will have to resmooth the sole with some abrasive means.
Also, rust is iron oxide, which is rather soft and easily friable; I would not call rust "hard."Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Pond, I am not referring to flaky, superficial rust-obviously that is easily handled by abrasives, steel wool etc.With well advanced rust the whole job is simplified by using electrolysis or other means such as chemicals, followed by then superficial sanding.
The questions were: is it easy-answer -yes and could a description be given-I have done so, based on experience.
If you think all rust is soft, try machining it....Philip Marcou
Unlike steel, cast iron is porous. Rust will be down inside of the pores. The average pore size of cast iron is larger than that of a water molecule.
There are many ways to remove surface rust. But, IMO, no method but electrolysis will remove all the iron oxide on, and in, cast iron.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Indeed sire, indeed. So enthusiastic was I too extol the virtues of this most convenient process that I forgot that very point you raised.For what is the use of removing surface rust when the real culprit is still lurking down below, alive and well?Philip Marcou
Thank you google.
http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php
I have used electrolysis to remove rust from tools. I use a battery charger, but keep one thing in mind. After a few times using it, the alligator clips on the electrodes tend to get eaten up. I now attach wires to the electrodes and wrap them around the sacrificial piece and the tool I am derusting. The alligator clips don't go into the solution, only the wires, and the clips don't disappear.
I may be on the wrong forum, but I need an answer. I can't get the type size smaller then what you see. Original post was on Breaktime. On this forum size, paragraph, font, and color work better, but still not right. On Breaktime, size can go so small that you can't read it, after that it will go too large, no in-between, paragraph, font, size, and color don't work. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks.
Use the default settings so us old farts with bifocals can still read it. There is lots of space on the board, don't be afraid, you won't use it all up. ;>)The Professional Termite
Not hard just a REAL mess! I thought I had a link but I can not find it.. Methods out on the web... Use care but it works!
You can even replate with metals if you want to go that far with it..
Edited 10/22/2005 2:44 pm by WillGeorge
I tried this a few years ago on a few old Stanley Bailey planes... I don't remember the proportion of baking powder to water, but what I did with the setup was use a 5 gallon plastic bucket and rather than one piece of sacrificial steel I used pieces of rebar arranged vertically around the inside edge of the bucket so that I could surround the tool. Otherwise as someone else mentioned you have to turn the tool from time to time. I connected the pieces of rebar to each other electrically using some thick copper wire (on the top, above the surface of the water). One last think to keep in mind is that the anode lead that you attach to the tool and submerge will corrode a bit as well... Overall I was pleased with the results.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael -
The anode is the sacrificial iron you are using. (+) goes to the sacrificial anode, and (-) goes to the tool.
For grins one time I hooked up a trashed plane backwards. It really did a number on it!
ps - hooking something up backwards like that is a good way to get the scale cleaned off the sacrificial anodes. Just don't do a #1 plane that way!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Whoops -- You are correct, sorry that the terminology was backwards. My point was that if you are using a battery charger and you attach the red (+) clamp to the electrode, in the solution that clamp will be eaten away along with the sacrificial electrode. Best bet is to have a scrificial anode that protrudes out of the solution and attach the battery clamp to that. As you said if you reverse the polarity, you can chew up that tool pretty quickly :-)
Greg,
Sometime ago I posted this,
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=19526.1
It is about a chemical I have been using to remove rust. It works great and I have had success with it. It's non toxic. Down side is it can be pricey.
Now if I only had time to finish that bandsaw.
I've done it. Its easy. It works great. I wouldn't do it any other way.
Todd
ShopNotes < shopnotes.com >had an article on this last year or the year before. You might check their web site. I have had friends that used the method and tell me that it worked great but it did take a few hours. Also make sure to rince the plane completely and protect it with oil afterwords. I would suggest using an air hose to help dry the folds in the parts.
This may have been mentioned above, hope not. You might want to try a product called Evapo-Rust. One of our members brought it to our attention some time ago, after using it to help restore an old bandsaw. Here's the link to some before and after pictures he provided.
Here's the product web site. Note especially this sentence, which Leonard confirms via his experience: "It is non-corrosive to steel and does not harm brass, copper, aluminum, gold, lead, titanium, steel, cast iron, solder points, vinyl, plastic, rubber, silicone, glass, cork or wood."
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 10/25/2005 11:12 pm by forestgirl
That thread is pretty impressive. Bookmarked now, Thanks!! ;-).
Any idea if Evapo-Rust has a shelf life to keep in mind? How do you dispose of used portions?
-robert
Here's the page where you can access the MSDS for the product. Note: It might download as a .dot document. Minor(!) typo on their part?! Change the extension to .doc and you'll be able to open it.
No protection needed for skin or respiratory system, but they recommend goggles for the eyes. Only precaution is to store it in a "tightly sealed container in a cool, dry place." I didn't see anything about disposal. I'll ask Len when I talk to him tonight.
As long as you're there, note that they have a map with sources plotted on it. I found out the hard way that trying to Google to get a source is a waste of time!
If you'd like more info from Len (the bandsaw owner) I can nudge him to check in here. LMK.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Cool. Thanks again! I never read an MSCS before. Looks like the relevant section is:
No chemist I, but this looks benign, except possibly "oxides of carbon" decomposition products. Oxides of nitrogen refers to NO, NO2, NO3, etc. I wonder if there is a possibility of CO outgassing? Just curious, this stuff seems safer than the vast majority of what wws routinely use for finishing.
"this stuff seems safer than the vast majority of what wws routinely use for finishing." No kidding! I can't wait to get some -- there are so many rusty things laying around our Great Northwest yard.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie -"there are so many rusty things laying around our Great Northwest yard."How much would I need to restore a '74 Land Cruiser? (grin)
More than the 1 gallon I sent you an email about this morning, ROFL. Check your email, dude, I have a line on a 5-gallon unit for wayyyyyy discount.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
ridiculous amount of info here...
http://www.rexmill.com/
electrolysis
refinishing
sharpening
handle repair
you name it..
Whoa, awesome link. Thanks for sharing this. My dad gave me an old Stanley to use. He got it at a garage sale, and if I can fettle it it'll be a nice addition. This link will help!
I like to get my rust removal products from http://www.theruststore.com I have used thier products on my planes. Great products and great service.
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