Sand paper sharpening and using a hon…
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Hello, wondering if anybody out there has an opinion on where to find decent sandpaper for the float glass&sp method of sharpening. I have been using aluminum oxide paper from 3m, and I am of the opinion that it doesn’t cut very fast, and I’m hoping to find a decent adhesive backed silicon carbide roll sandpaper supplier–I found one once on the web, but have since lost the url.
I am also looking for a supplier that has insanely fine grit sandpaper, so I can get that scary sharp edge…I’m planing hard maple.
Also, would anybody reccommend using a honing guide on sandpaper? Would it be harder on the guide than usinging it on a sharpening stone? My logic say’s no, but I haven’t seen anybody use a honing guide with the scary sharp float glass method before.
Thanks,
Jared Heuschele
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The great thing about this sharpening method is that it demystifys the process and makes it easy, so I find it unfortunate that places are now marketing expensive "systems" with all sorts of gizmos to do this. I teach a chisel skill workshop occasionally where showing how this system works is part of the class: every student I've had has been able to "get it" in less than an hour and it makes a huge difference in how you are able to work. You should be able to set yourself up to sharpen for a grand total of $20 or less.
What I have found is this: all you need is some plate glass (doesn't have to be "float glass" or "machinist's plate" or "the glass of the mind of god.") I have a piece of 1/4" about 8" x 30", an old stereo cabinet door. If you dont have it a slab of MDF is fine too. Get some regular sheets of paper, plain aluminum oxide is fine in the rougher grits, silicon carbide in the finer: I usually use 120, 220, 320, 600, 1000, 2000. For the finer grits, any auto parts shop should have them in thier finishing supply section. Rip the sheets in half. With spray adhesive coat the backs of the 3 rougher grits and glue them to your flat surface. This larger surface area makes forming a good edge much easier. I havent seen any reason to look for a higher grit than 2000, but you can track it down in catalogs if you really want to.
Sharpening is in a side to side motion, so a (rolling type) honing guide really wont work. If you do a push-pull movement you will tend to gouge the paper. Just tip the blade forward and back and you will feel it seat on the bevel: holding this is really not that hard as you will find. Moving side to side allows you to keep the angle better and maintain a plane in space. Start on the rough grits only if you need too: on your first time you need to lap the back thoroughly to make sure it is flat up at the edge. Work your way up, doing the bevel and the back on each grit.
After the 320 you can just lay the finer grits on top of the 320 sheet to do the honing. Wipe the edge off between grits, and lap the back on each grit.
The best thing about this is you can leave the system set up and its FAST. Find a spot on a bench or make a quick little shelf to screw to the wall somewhere easily accesible. Taking a new blade or one with a chip up to being really sharp might take 10 mins, but most of the time I just walk over with the chisel or blade, start at 600 and go up, and I'm back at work in less than a minute. This means keeping your blades nice and sharp becomes habitual, which improves your work. Sheets of paper last a LONG time, even in daily use: I probably change sheets once a month at the most. The aluminum oxide sheets probably dont last as many hours, but really they are used only for intial sharpening or nick removal so they dont see as much wear.
Yes, if you are trying to lap a plane bed dead flat you may need a more specialized surface, but for most applications "pretty flat" is flat enough. This really is a system that is valuable for its lack of complication and mystery, and I hate to see it being turned into a "product."
*Jared,I think hotsawdust really said it all, however, I came to a couple of different conclusions in my experience with sandpaper sharpening.Hotsawdust mentions finding sandpaper up to 2000 grit at an auto supply store. I second that, I sharpen up to 2000 grit, its readily available for a few bucks a package, I bought one package of 1000 and one of 2000 (both 3M brand) over a year ago, and I still haven't worked through all of the paper. You may find finer than 2000 someplace, catalogs or wherever, but I could shave with a freshly sharpened plane blade off of 2000 paper. I haven't found the need to go finer, even on maple.However, for coarse flattening and beveling, I use 3M aluminum oxide paper in the larger grits. I have found that I go through this fairly quickly. It seems like the grains on the coarser papers (80, 100, 120) crumble away easier from the pressure of flattening a blade. I was flattening the back of a old Stanley blade, and ended up going through a couple of sheets of each before I got a good flat surface. If you are flattening new blades, this might not be as much of an issue, since they should be less warped.Secondly, I started by free-handing the bevel angles on chisels, and found that I was haveing a tough time keeping a nice steady angle, especially for the microbevel on the final step. I got a honing guide to use for making the bevels, and have gotten very good results. I would recommend trying to free hand it first to see if you have the skill, and then getting a honing guide if you need it.So far I haven't had much problem with the blade digging into the paper, even with the honing guide. I'm sure this depends on how much pressure you put on the blade.Good luck,Jay
*Guys, I already have a honing guide(veritas with the bevel setter), and for me, that is the way to go...I too have not had a gouging problem, and I find that my instant gratification personality doesn't hold much patience for the skill and guess method of bevel honing. I just didn't want to hork up my honing guide with alumoxide particles if anybody had a bad experience with it.As far as a side to side motion goes, regardless of dunbar's technique and hotsawdusts' emphasis, I totally disagree. Take a look at some of the photos in Lee's sharpening book of the striations in the edge of the blade taken at 400u or some ridiculously fine magnification--there's a section that compares an edge sharpened via side to side vs perp to the blade edge, and one is definately sharper than the other. From a physics point of view, regardless of the fineness of the granularity of the sharpening medium, you are better off with a bevel sharpening action that is perpendicular to the blade edge. At least, that is what I would conclude with what little critical thinking skills I have. I would think every little bit counts when you're cutting hardwoods and stubborn grains.Unfortunately, I have practically zero hands-on knowledge of the subject, and too much book-learnin'. I'm new to hand work, and lately, I've had too many honey-dos around the house to finally get to the maple racked out in the garage. Soon, Soon, I hope.I have a 3/8 thick piece of plate glass, 12x36", and I know the technique. Again, not to be redundant, but what I'm really looking for is a suplier of adhesive backed rolls of siC paper, and preferably on the web, mail order. I'm just too impatient to spray and cut sandpaper. I just want to slap it on there and get to work. Isn't that the spirit of the method, in a nutshell?Thanks for your input guys, much appreciated. Where does Mike Dunbar get his sandpaper, anyway??
*I use the same method to sharpen tools in my shop, and I use a Veritas honing guide for most of my initial sharpening. It does take a light touch, seems to work ok for me. 1600 grit is the finest paper I use, and seems to be OK, but I don't do this for a living, so probably don't really know what super sharp really is.
*I have a piece of 3/8" x 10" x 12" glass that works great. Maybe I'm crazy, I bought a fine sandpaper kit from Woodcraft that goes up to 12000. I think the edge produced would split atoms, but it's not too durable. I should probably lay off at 2-4000. I use a Veritas guide, works fine, no paper gouging. It has a built-in offset for getting a one or two degree micro-bevel. The only drawback I see is one common to any flat sharpening system vs. hollow ground: you end up sharpening the whole face of the bevel instead of just the edge and heel,as you would if the face were ground concave. This adds a lot of work to the process, when all you really need is a sharp edge to do the cutting. Maybe the ideal would be a coarse hollow grind followed by sandpaper honing of just the edge.
*Lee Valley has aluminum oxide in 2 1/2" adhesive rolls up to 22 grit http://www.leevalley.com. I can't imagine a SiOx roll that would be cost-effective next to sheets. Laying a sheet on top of an adhered 320 grit can't be any harder than using a self-adhesive roll.
*Jared-I think this is what you were asking for.http://klingspor.com/default.htmhttp://www.industrialabrasives.comPeace.-Rob
*Thanks Robert, that's the ticket.Roger, I will only be buying rolls in the first three grits, 80,180, and 220. I'll use sheets as you reccommend.One more thing, everyone: aluminum oxide versus silicon carbide(whoops, i've been calling it silicon oxide...)...I was under the impression that AlOx would be a slower cutting abrasive than silicon carbide.....but a tech spec on the klinspor page (http://klingspor.com/abrasivegrains.htm) reccommends alox for ferrous and non ferrous, and probably even better, aluminum zirconia, although I bet it's pricier. Anybody have any hands on experience with any of these in respects to speed of cutting? particularly, 80 grit? The alox paper from 3m seemed to wear out rather quickly when I was lapping the back of various blades.Thanks,J
*Jared,I haven't tried the Alumina Zirconia but I have heard other people say good things about it. If you go to http://www.rusty2l.com, choose "Quick Lap" under the topic chooser, you will see an article posted about Alumina Zirconia vs. SiC and AlOx. Even includes who makes it, where to get it, etc.Jay
*All I can say is making it more complicated will lessen your likelihood of keeping your tools sharp. If all you have to do is walk over and hone the edge, no guide, no worries, you'll do it more often. If you are sharpening instead of working, it doesn't really matter what a microphotograph of your edge looks like. I can keep an edge polished up like a mirror and super sharp with little effort, and you can learn to do the same with no gizmos in less time than you have spent thinking about where to order sandpaper. Theres no guessing involved, you'll figure it out quick, you sharpen up and go. I admit to losing my patience quickly with these "ultimate way to sharpen" quibbles. Abrasives are abrasives. A sharp tool is a sharp tool, and the easier it is to keep it as sharp as it needs to be (not as sharp as it POSSIBLY can be) the better off your work will be.
*Look in the Index of Advertisers of i Fine Woodworking.You'll find a company called EconAbrasives. They don't have a web site, just great prices, good products, and good service. They'll send a free catalog on request through their 800 phone line.They also produce custom sizes of belts at very low prices. Try 'em and I think you'll like them.
*I have to use a honing guide, cause I don't have the patience to learn how not to use one.Actually, I use a sharpening guide and a honing guide. I sharpen on diamond laps (3 different grits) then hone on sandpaper. If I get a really bad nick, I use my vertical belt sander. I have the paper stuck to the back of the diamond laps. When the paper get worn, I soak the whole thing in paint thinner to get it off. I bought 100 sheets of PSA 600 grit w/d silicon paper on Ebay for a song. Really heavy industrial stuff. Somewhere along the line I picked up some sheets of PSA 1200 grit w/d paper too, but don't remember where?? After the paper, I use two different pieces of belly leather glued to wood blocks. One is impregnated with white rouge, and the other (used last) is not.I HIGHLY recommend PSA paper. I found that trying to apply the glue yourself negated the idea of having a flat surface.My diamond plates (1/4" steel) are flat on the back side. I also have some 1/2" aluminum plates that are flat. I don't think that float glass is an absolute necessity.
*Jared,Concerning your original question, you may like to try some of the 3M mylar-backed abrasives I buy from the Japan Woodworker here in the San Francisco Bay area. They go down to .5 microns and are pretty durable. I use water as a lubricant/"dust" remover. They have a website and a stunning catalog.I was recently up at the College of the Redwoods and spoke to a student about the methods taught there. He goes without guides, but uses thick irons in his hand made planes. They aren't as prone to rocking during a stroke. On thin ones such as Stanley-type, though, he will still sometimes use a guide. I use an eclipse-style guide, rather than a Veritas on plane irons, as I crown the blade as discussed in another topic in this area. It is entitled, MOVED POST: Sharpening Handplanes. There are currently 41 posts there, some of which you may actually find interesting.
*Just so long as you guys don't start getting all obsessed with achieving mirror bright reflective surfaces on every edge and face, then that seems fine. Me? I'm just a working hack furniture maker, and I gash the blunt tools over a 700 grit ceramic stone and get back to hacking. I've also been known to use a carborundum stone, a Japanese stone, a bit of abrasive paper, and a concrete step at a real push. If I want to see my face, I'll look in a mirror, which means I don't look in mirrors much. But for planing and chiselling timber, a sharp plane or chisel works just fine. I've always been of the opinion that you can get it as pretty and reflective as you like, but the first cut is in the general direction of blunt, and you might get an extra five strokes out of your mirror bright plane iron before it's as blunt as mine, but my sharpening process takes about 2 minutes, and yours might take a quarter of an hour, or more. I can't see the benefit, because I'll be 10 planed boards ahead of you by the time you've got the lever cap back on. Slainte, RJ.
*Exactly.
*Sgian & Hotsawdust,Do either of you ever use a strop with a little buffing compound on it after sharpening? It seems that carvers like to do that with their gouges, but I don't see a lot of people doing it for chisels. I do it because it seems to remove that last tiny bit of burr, but this may all in my imagination.To your point about getting back to work, it would mean one more step and I guess I am wondering how effective it is for those of you who make your living at this.Tim
*No Tim. After the stone I flip the iron or chisel back and forth on the palm of my hand a few times as I move back to my work. I learnt this trick from a chain smoking, crusty, curt old Jock with a secret heart of gold who put me through the 'learning how to sharpen' mill one afternoon during the first week or two of my training in the early seventies. I guess the palm is a bit leathery, and the wee bit of sweat and wood dust is the abrasive. It seems to work, because I'm still doing the trick some 25 years after that fiery initiation. Slainte, RJ.
*I just bought a bunch of sheets of silicon carbide from 220 to 400 grit. It is "lubed" Questions:- Is the lube likely zinc stearate, as in "stearated" paper?- Is this an appropriate paper for sharpening, or should I stick with the non-lubed wet/dry variety?cheers,Roger
*About the same as Skidoo...I always meant to get one to have around but never have. I'm sure it works fine and would only add seconds I tend to use my pants as a strop rather than my palm, much to the chagrin of the appearance maintenance officer of this household. (P.S. after a lousy, everything going wrong, equipment breakin' day like today, I momentarily question the profitability of my line of work....)
*tim, i keep a small piece of mdf next to my stones charged very lightly with veritas honing compound. a few dragging strokes on the bevel follwed by a few on the back make a noticable difference to me. i think this is especially true if you are still using oilstones, rather than waterstones. just my two cents
*I just bought a honing guide yesterday and sharpened my chissels and hand plane last night using 220 600 and leather and that is the sharpest I have EVER had either of them. I guess I don't have the nack for doing it freehand although I would think it should be easier to keep them sharp freehand after finally getting them sharp. It is very pleasing to get tools that sharp by doing it yourself.Tammy
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