Replies

1. 
   MarkRoderick | May 27, 2003 02:36pm | #1

   The theory is that the scraper should be the last tool that touches the wood - no sandpaper needed. You'll be able to tell from how cleanly the scraper cut the wood.

2. 
   JeffKurtz | May 27, 2003 03:07pm | #2

   As Mark points out, there really shouldn't be a need for sandpaper on wood that has been scraped or hand planed. (At least in theory.  We beginners and advanced beginners in the hand plane department don't always achieve the results we desire.)  Wood that has been carefully finished with a sharp smoothing plane produces the very best surface since the wood fibres are cut off with very little tearing.  Using a cabinet scraper results in more tearing (due to the thinner blade and less sharp edge), producing a slightly duller finish.  Regardless of what grit one uses, sandpaper will always produce the dullest finish, not so much because of the production of dust which can be easily removed, but because the wood fibres are literally torn rather than cut.

   However, if you aren't yet getting the results you desire from a hand plane or scraper, I'd say use sand paper to the extent you must, and keep practicing.

   Jeff

3. 
   Kell | May 27, 2003 10:56pm | #3

   FWIW you may also find that a scraped or planed surface tends to be less likely to take a stain, particularly on maple.  That's been my experience but I can't say I know why.  If anyone can enlighten me, I'd love to hear it.

   Kell

1. 
   pauld | May 27, 2003 11:43pm | #4

   Kell touches on an important issue - what kind of finishing you have in mind.

   I generally start sanding at 220-grit after scraping because I want a uniform texture that will consistently take the stain and finishes that will be applied later.

   After planing, and sometimes scraping, the surface is too burnished to readily accept stain and/or finish. Granted, this is a moot point if you plan to use a sanded-in finish.

   Also depends on the wood species you're using: are you using a ring-porous species like Oak or Ash, with their open "pores," or a diffuse-porous species like ebony or maple?

   Best of luck,Paul

1. 
   BG | May 28, 2003 12:57am | #5

   Paul,

   Ya left me a bit hanging....and if your using a ring-porous (Ash, Oak).....

   what happens? Will it take a stain after hand scraping or not?

   Would you still snad the Ash with 220 befoe staining?

   thanks 

2. 
   Kevin | May 28, 2003 01:22am | #6

   Ditto what Paul said. It has always been my understanding that the primary purpose of finish sanding prior to applying the finish is to leave a uniform surface that will finish evenly. Of course much depends on the wood species and what grit one uses, as well as the desired finish. What I was taught years ago was that final prep sanding is supposed to open the wood pores evenly... whereas anything that burnishes the wood closes wood cells and inhibits even penetration of the stain and topcoat. That is exagerated on a hard, tight-grained species like Maple because there the wood doesn't take stain very well in the first place.

   An interesting way to test this out would be to take a piece of something relatively soft like Alder, sand it uniformly with say... 220 grit sandpaper, and using a nail place a small scratch (which tears the wood pores) on the piece of wood, then using the back of your thumb nail rub a streak in so that when you look at it in a sidelight you can see a reflection (ie., burnished wood pores) where you rubbed it with your thumbnail. Then stain it. The burnished spot where you used your thumbnail will stain lighter and the scratch from the nail will stain darker. It's all about how readily the wood accepts the stain. The way I've always used this is to demonstrate how important selecting the proper grit of final prep sandpaper is. Too course a grit and it'll stain dark and show scratches... too fine a grit and it'll stain too light and, if it's a large piece, unevenly because most fine grits wear out quicker... Which is why I personally don't like to use anything finer than 220 to prep sand with. It's easy to lighten the stained color by sanding with a finer grit. But, it becomes increasingly more difficult (on large pieces at least...) to control how evenly the wood is prepped as one goes to finer and finer grits.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   Alan | May 28, 2003 03:06am | #7

   Interesting discussions about a plane or scraper burnishing the surface.  This has not been my experience.

   A sharp plane iron or scraper cuts the fibers cleanly and leaves the pores wide open and clean; it doesn't mash down the grain or burnish the surface.  I suppose such problems could occur with a dull plane iron or a dull scraper.  A dull plane, obviously, will not as effectively cut the wood fibers and could, I guess, burnish the surface.  A sharp scraper creates shavings--just like a plane--but a dull scraper creates dust; perhaps the dust could clog up the pores, as sanding dust can, and create similar problems.

   I've stained such blotchy-prones as pine, cherry and maple immediately after planing or scraping, and the wood has taken the finish more smoothly and evenly than it ever did when I was still sanding.  On every wood with which I've so far worked, planing or scraping has left a surface superior to the best surface I ever got while sanding--no matter how it was finished.

   I'd be interested if you who have had problems would describe what happened more completely.  Perhaps I'm unknowingly doing something to avoid such troubles.

   Alan

1. 
   Kevin | May 28, 2003 08:20am | #8

   Alan, let me backtrack here just a bit. What I was keying in on with Paul's comments was the issue of burnishing. I've never actually stained wood after scraping it. The importance of prep sanding was so thoroughly drilled into me that it's actually somewhat hard for me to conceive of why someone would want to not sand prior to staining. That's not to say that you're doing anything wrong... It's more a testiment to the level of my indoctrination as an impressionable teenager. LOL

   I haven't even used a plane in years. But, I do use veneer scrapers from time to time. In my experience they loose their edge quickly enough that when Paul posted his comments they made perfect sense to me. Perhaps I've been using sub-par scrapers? I dunno. I do know that it is my habit to prep sand after using a veneer scraper, though. It never occurred to me to do otherwise.

   You point about a clean cut is a good one. Good quality sandpaper of an appropriate git and which has been used properly should leave a clean cut. Somewhere on my desk at work I've got some pictures of properly and improperly sanded wood under a microscope. The properly sanded wood sample photo shows only barely discernable tearing. It is a stark contrast to the photo of the improperly sanded wood sample.

   One thing is for sure... I'm now going to have to go try staining directly over a scraped surface just to satisfy my curiosity. And for that I thank you because satisfying my curiosity is one of life's greatest pleasures in my experience.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   JeffKurtz | May 28, 2003 10:31pm | #9

   The importance of prep sanding was so thoroughly drilled into me that it's actually somewhat hard for me to conceive of why someone would want to not sand prior to staining.

   FYI,  sand paper was invented June 14, 1834 - man's name was Fischer.  Clever chap.  Don't know when its use became widespread.  My books written in the 1860s make no mention of it, while those written in the early 1900s do.

   Point is that a whole lot of very nice furniture that was nicely finished was made before the stuff was ever invented.  (In fact, given that most good furniture was built before the Victorian period and mass production, one can say that most good furniture was made before the invention of sand paper.)

   Jeff

2. 
   Alan | May 29, 2003 02:01am | #10

   Kevin,

   I've not heard the term veneer scraper before (my ignorance is once again on display).  Is a veneer scraper what I would call a card scraper (just an index-card size piece of spring steel) or some kind of scraper plane or what?

   Thanks for helping to remedy my tremendous ignorance (you've got your work cut out for you).

   Alan

3. 
   Kevin | May 29, 2003 04:46am | #12

   Is a veneer scraper what I would call a card scraper (just an index-card size piece of spring steel)

   Bingo! That's it. Although, the ones that I've seen and used had one machined edge which produced the cutting surface. The first set I ever saw were supposedly each a different sized (depth? I'm unsure of the proper terminology here...)cutting edge so that one scraper would remove wood more aggresively than another. It was a dozen or so years ago but as I recall the guy had a kit of like three or four of them, each with a different edge. I've heard of guys making a quick, cheap one by simply running a fine file across one edge of mild sheet steel to produce the cutting edge. I've also heard of guy using these cheap ones as a way to finish the edges of plastic laminate instead of using an angled router bit and finish file. Seems a bit insane to me. But, hey... different strokes...

   Maybe the difference in terminology is a regional thing? I'm in the Pacific Northwest and have always heard them referred to as "veneer scrapers."

   Regards,

   Kevin

   Edited 5/28/2003 9:57:09 PM ET by Kevin

4. 
   Alan | Jun 01, 2003 02:57am | #13

   Kevin,

   Maybe I'm unusually dense today; but I think we must be talking about different things.

   What I call a card scraper, or a hand scraper, come in various sizes and thicknesses.  But they all are sharpened by burnishing a hook on the edge (after some preliminary preparation).  This way you could get eight cutting edges on each (rectangular) scraper.  (They also come in various shapes where there is no straight edge.)  The hook is what cuts the wood cleanly and produces plane-like shavings.  Within limits you can put on different size and different angle hooks  for rough or fine work.  But I've never heard of producing a hook with a file, and I don't see how it could be done.  A good burnisher, for turning the hook, is smooth and hard; file is hard, of course, but not particularly smooth.

   So my card scraper, or hand scraper, doesn't seem to be the same tool you're describing--again, unless I'm being dense.

   Alan

4. 
   stancalow | May 29, 2003 04:04am | #11

   FWIW

   In "Hand Applied Finishes" by Jeff Jewitt, he recommends sanding with 180 or 220 after scraping, to even out any surface irregularities.

1. 
   timberrattler | Jun 05, 2003 06:02pm | #14

   That makes me feel better. Because on the best hand planed surface I've ever achieved, when you hold the wood up to the light the freshly shaved surface is shiny but I've never been able to get rid of all the overlap marks so I've always lightly sanded with 220 on a sanding block to even it out.