Sanding on Sunday, Numb Hands on Monday
I say this every time, “ I’m going to get some Anti-Vibration gloves before the next major sanding session.” Well this time I really mean it. From what I’ve read this is a cumulative problem and it seems to be getting worse. Especially when I use my “choo choo” sander. There’s a dizzying array of products on the market. Full or half-finger, leather, terry, spanex … Rubber, gel, … Brands Viscolas, Tasco, Allegro, Hatch, Gloveworks …
If the nerve damage is confined to the palms and first pad of the index finger then the half-finger gloves would seem to allow the most dexterity. On the other hand if the finger tips are where the numbness occurs then maybe full-fingered gloves would be better. Then there are AV gloves that include wrist bracing for repetitive motion protection and/or tool wrap. I’ve already had Carpel Tunnel release surgery a few years ago because of numbness (no pain) so now I’m wondering if that could come back. Anybody been through this? I will consult my hand-surgeon, but I’d like to hear from any of you with this problem.
John O’Connell – JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It’s tougher if you’re stupid – John Wayne
Replies
You betcha I have thoughts! I had bilateral carpal tunnel release surgery also, and lots of other problems with hands, wrists and arms. First of all, it's important not to assume anything. The location of the numbness may not be (probably isn't) the source of the problem. The fact that this is an ongoing and increasing problem suggests that you need some diagnostic help from someone who knows the body mechanics involved (read: not a GP).
The best source of information and diagnosis I've found for these problems is, believe or not, sports medicine specialists. They are much more likely to understand biomechanics, they are thorough diagnosticians, they do not rush to the knife the way surgeons do, and they usually have excellent physical therapists on their list when needed.
Nerve problems are not something to wait on and try to treat yourself. In the meantime, when sanding, for pity's sake break the session up into smaller segments!!!! (Do I get wound up about this -- uhhhhh, yes).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Actually, the very best source is the PM&R doctor (physical medicine and rehabiltation) they are cross trained in Orthopaedics and Neurology....no knives. They can test the underlying musculostructure inadequaces and often cure through specialized exercise. The problem is often they are hard to find. Usually a call to a rehab hospital will tell you who is on staff that is seeing patients.
I've not seen, as far as I know, a PM&R person, unlessd that was the qualification for the doc that did an exam on a long-ago worker's comp claim. But I have had several of the nerve-transmission tests and such. I'd still see a Sports Medicine doctor or someone who specializes in hands/wrists/shoulders first. Someone who looks at the body as an organic, biomechanical a very practical approach. Just my slant on things after 15 years of troubleshooting and surgery. Learned a lot from the wasted time spent with the wrong people.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
There are 6 recognized specialized areas in Orthopaedics. Sports Medicine is not one yet, however, they are usually quite good with knees and shoulders....hands are a specialty. PM&R are MD's, and in a study conducted by the NY Times about 15 years ago, were found to be more than twice as successful as orthopods with bad backs. I used them on the Ford assembly line for all injuries and to reduce repetitive stress. I also had one that specialized in sports performance...we worked with many elite athletes to improve performance...
I'm kinda pushing the PM&R in this thread because I have some similar symptons that were mentioned. In my case its in the cervical area with an ever so slightly out of line vertebrae and a very thick spine ( from weight lifting) and not enough room for the nerve. Anyhow, my point is it could be many things and PM&R's have some unusual tests not available to the other specialities....non-invasive tests (read: no pain)....lol...I'm a devout coward also...
Weightlifting thickens one's spine?
Charles,
Yes, weightlifting also helps reduce the loss of calcium in the bones...and is highly suggested for the elderly...which of course none of us are yet...lol
Thickens ossiferous parts of the spinal column but not the cord itself. That, I can buy.
I had a follow-up with my hand surgeon Monday to check progress on an infection/bursitus problem. Fortunately that's healing well. The fingers of my left hand are still somewhat numb and the right is pretty much normal after 2 weeks. We discussed vibration injury and gloves. First-off I'm more prone to this problem because the nerves are never going to be the same, even 5 years after carpal tunnel release surgery. The anti-vib gloves won't hurt and may help some. They can't dampen all the vibration so as it radiates up the arm more damage is done. He spoke of patients that had to give up motorcycle riding for the same reason. Bottom line is if I want "to keep my hands" I need to avoid vibrating tools as much as possible. I'll start with the worst offender, my in-line "choo-choo" sander is history, glad I only spent $30 on it at Harbor Freight. Next I'll invest in some gel gloves and some tool wrap and move the Performax ShopPro 25 to the top of the list.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John, I've never used pneumatic sanders -- do they vibrate less? Would that be an option?
With regard to the status of your nerves post-surgery: Sounds like maybe you waited too long to get the surgery? If so, perhaps you could use this platform to encourage others to act quickly with regard to carpal tunnel symptoms. I had fairly severe CT in my right hand in the mid '80's and despite doing some incorrect self-diagnosis, the surgery came well in time to prevent permanent nerve damage.
In those days, it was an open procedure. I hear that nowadays it's done arthroscopically, and therefore much less invasive, with less pain and faster recovery period.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
John, I've never used pneumatic sanders -- do they vibrate less? Would that be an option?
If anything I'd guess they probabaly vibrate more because they run at higher UPM's and have less mass to damper vibration than their electric counter parts. On the other hand the are easier to wrap with "tool wrap" because they just have an exhaust port vs. a whole bunch of cooling ports for the electric motor. Hard to say for sure, probably depends on the tool. The inline choo-choo is probably the absolute worst since it's constantly changing direction 180 degrees all that momentum is going straight into your hands. But they are great for sanding linear molding profiles and keeping them crisp.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I suspect that the weightlifting also influences the skeletal parts involved by the tendons and ligaments placing stress on the bone. The bone would probably thicken in response to these stresses. Just a guess.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Your correct. Everything in nature responds to stressors..including those darn trees..
Weightlifting, applied appropriately not only improves and strengthens the muscles and bones but dramatically improves the efficiency of the nervous system...those little synapse shoot off better....improving balance and a whole host of other things...
Your dead on about this. I harp to my fellow workers the same way. Don't assume it is as simple as a pair of gloves.
Over the years I've noticed an increase numbness in my hands and outer two fingers. Numbness when painting overhead and dropping the paint brush.
I thought it just from the constant banging of my hammer and the vibration of tools, part of the job. It got worse.
Went to the doctor thinking carpal but it turned out to be similiar but in my shoulders. Seems my headaches were related. Never thought when I carried that heavy beam and later suffered headaches it was related.
Long story short two surgeries later and I'm almost normal. With care, things like breaking up my sanding sessions, no more heavy shoulder loads and watching how I grip objects I might avoid a reoccurrence.
I don't know if it is related or not, but I will share a story. When I cut dovetails, many at a time, I am frimly gripping the blade with my left hand, aligning and such, and my right for the mallet. Over time, I would get a situation where my hand sort of "locks" up, can't really move it; frozen a bit in the holding osition. Feels really wierd, like I am out of control. I would put the chisel down, shake my hand out, and get back to it. Don't know if others have had this problem or not.
A friend, a nursing professor from Hawaii, was visiting, with her friend, a native Hawaiian (sp?) healer, who was speaking at a nursing conference. As a house gift, of sorts, she gave me a treatment which consisted of a sort of massage, saying that with this treatment I would not have the problem again, even though I had had it for several years. Well, she was right. She was here in about Feb. or so, and no problem since. So you have a native Hawaiian healer in Cal? Just a thought.
(BTW - I normally avoid what I think of a junk science, and would not have gone for this, but to refuse would have been an insult. She was very charming, and very strong as well. I wouldn't have wanted to arm wrestle her.)
Alan
There are lots of hands-on (so-to-speak) techniques that we don't hear much about unless we run into an exceptional practitioner. My physical therapists (yes, plural) are skilled in many of these. Was the massage directly on your hand or wrist? Could be, something was slightly dislocated ("subluxated" is the word, I believe, and a controversial one at that) and was locking up when under constant stress.
The United States PTs, on average, are at least a decade behind the best in the world, many of whom are trained in Canada. It can be a long search to find the really good ones here, but it's much easier now than it was 20 years ago.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sounds like the Hawaiian version of chiropractic or reflexology. Surprised one treatment did it. I keep my eye out for a big polynesian massuse/healer. The best massage I ever had was from a big Samoan guy. His hands were the size of catcher's mits and could probably crush stone.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
There's a condition known in occupation health circles as "vibration white finger". The circulation shuts down in fingers creating a very cold frozen sensation and numbness and the fingers turn pasty yellow-white as the circulation shuts down. At it's worse, the tissue at the fingertips dies and becomes gangrenous. In industry, it's caused by vibration from chainsaws, grinders, sanders, etc. Outside of industrial causes, it's known as "Reynaud's disease". Search google for either.
The medical community has a sketchy understanding, at best, of these phenomenon. They also aren't much help unless there's an organic cause like blocked arteries - then, you've got bigger issues anyway! Drs prescibe calcium channel blockers or prednisone (the miracle drug from heck). Also, avoid vibration and cold using gel gloves, mittens, and hand warmers. People report limited success with biofeedback - I try to envision warm blood coming back into my left hand fingers - does it work? I hope so!
Good luck, if you find a real solution, please post it on Knots!
I have never posted or replied to any thing on this forum before, but I was just passing by and I had to reply to this.
I am a neurologist and it really sounds like you need a test called an EMG. Numbness and/or tingling is always caused by a nerve problem. This can be either a temporary nerve dysfunction or a more persisent problem. As has been mentioned, one can't assume that it is such and such a cause, such as a pinch at the carpal tunnel. That is only asking for trouble, when you assume (insert your own comment). My personal opinion is that any failed carpal tunnel release surgery is usually because the person didn't have carpal tunnel syndrome in the first place. There are many other places of possible nerve comprimise, not only at the wrist. The very first thing to do is to diagnose what the problem is. It is useless to talk about treatment before that. That would be like trying to fix a bad finish without knowing what was used for the original finish (that is my obligatory link to woodworking - not a perfect analogy).
Neurologists and PM&R docs are the only ones who do EMGs (not all of them do it). Unfortunately there are a lot of bad EMGers out there. This includes both types of docs. Your best bet would be to make sure they are board certified by the AAEM (American Academy of Electrodiagnostic Medicine), although even this does not ensure that they are good. I will warn you that the test can hurt a little, but it is the ONLY way to diagnose peripheral nerve problems with any certainty.
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