Replies

1. 
   Clay | Apr 06, 2003 01:02pm | #1

   A sanding sealer is a quick drying varnish.  Usually it has silica flour or similar additives to soften the surface and make it easy to sand.  It is most useful when dealing with soft fuzzy woods that are kind of roughly machined.  It is sometimes used as a stain conditioner too (usually a pretty well thinned application).  Personally, I generally use thinned varnishes intead, but I have found the commercial products useful when doing rough finishing in a hurry on site.

1. 
   WorkshopJon | Apr 06, 2003 04:33pm | #2

   "A sanding sealer is a quick drying varnish."

   You are right, it can be but,...  they can also be lacquer based(or other). Also, they contain fillers like you said, and I believe sterates to aid in sandability. They have little place being used outside a production environment as they tend to cloud (ever so slightly) a finish. Their main purpose is to speed buildup of a smooth subfinish for a final topcoat. But I think you where alluding to that anyway. Multiple topcoats can achieve the same thing with better (clearer) results, at the cost of more time. But this is a hobby right?

   Jon

   Edited 4/6/2003 9:35:43 AM ET by WorkshopJon

2. 
   DennisS | Apr 06, 2003 05:49pm | #3

   Thanks, Clay.

   I'm about to embark on building some cabinets with ash frames. Was curious if it would be advisable to use a sanding sealer on this type of wood before spraying with laquer or perhaps varnish. I'd like the end result to be a nice level finish with moderate sheen. Don't want something that looks like the wood was encased in plastic but still want a good build on the finish to provide a level finish.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Clay | Apr 06, 2003 07:50pm | #4

   I don't think you'll need it for ash.  proper sanding and sanding between coats should take care of anything that the sealer would have helped with. 

1. 
   DennisS | Apr 07, 2003 07:02am | #6

   Thank for the input, Clay. This job is a ways off so since the excavation for the new shop isn't scheduled until Wed this coming! (grin). But I have a 'warm-up' exercise - building the laundry room sink cabinet - slated for completion in my current shop .... the one my wife insists should house her car! (hehe)

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 07, 2003 02:25am | #5

   Dennis - Jeff Jewitt has an article on sealers/sanding sealers at this link - http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00001.asp

   Depending on the look you want (e.g., open pore, semi-filled, filled), the sanding sealer can make the job easier. I always use vinyl sealer under lacquer - it has very good water vapor resistance, sands well (the brand I use), and provides a semi-filled look with one coat. With vinyl sealer, you want to keep the coat(s) thin. I usually use one coat of vinyl sealer and two coats of lacquer.

   If you're going to spray regular varnish, use vinyl sealer or a sanding sealer made for the varnish. If you're going to spray lacquer, use vinyl sealer or lacquer sanding sealer. Don't use more than a single coat of sanding sealer - see the article for an explanation.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   DennisS | Apr 07, 2003 07:05am | #7

   Thanks for the info, Paul.

   Speaking of spraying, what is your choice for equipment? I can't really afford one of those HVLP systems. I have a pretty good 3hp compressor but suspect I should consider something in line to take care of condensate/moisture. I have an airless system but I suppose that's not even worth considering for fine finish work??

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Clay | Apr 07, 2003 07:30am | #9

   Some finishers do use airless systems and even prefer them.  I don't have one and can't give much advice there.  I really think you should consider renting a good HVLP system.  I doubt that you could resist having one after trying it, assuming that you'd have a decent volume of work for it.

2. 
   DennisS | Apr 07, 2003 08:18am | #10

   I know what you mean about using a proper tool and realizing it (HVLP) is indeed worth having. I've looked at and priced some of this equipment and it seems to be all over the map, price-wise. My usual assessment of cheap tools is that they leave a lot to be desired, even given my low volume, high neophyte status with respect to finishing. I always seem to regret buying a cheap tool. All that by way of asking your opinion of some of the lesser expensive HVLP systems out there. Can you use an existing compressor or do you need to buy a complete system? I've got the 3hp compressor I mentioned initially plus a little pancake compressor for my finish nailer. Would either of these be of use with an HVLP gun & cup?

   Obviously I don't have a clue about how this HVLP stuff works! (g)

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

3. 
   RW | Apr 07, 2003 10:36pm | #11

   Conversion guns save you from having a turbine, but they suck a lot of air. Kind of like any other tool, check the CFM requirements of the gun compared to the compressor, but I suspect 3hp might be a little on the low side to run one with any efficiency. I have a fairly large comp with an 8hp induction motor, surely this would run a conversion gun (or so I thought) - when I checked into it, I wasn't even close. But it does great on a splitter running nail guns all day long. " Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders" - Nietzsche

4. 
   WorkshopJon | Apr 08, 2003 12:38am | #12

   "I have a fairly large comp with an 8hp induction motor, surely this would run a conversion gun (or so I thought) - when I checked into it, I wasn't even close. But it does great on a splitter running nail guns all day long."

   8hp, is that a typo? Most conversion guns need 8-15 CFM. The better 7.5hp compressors put out ~24CFM. What brand/style/age compressor are you running?

   Jon

5. 
   RW | Apr 08, 2003 02:09am | #13

   It's a wheelbarrow. Designed for running nail guns, I suspect, and built with the intent of longevity rather than volume of air. I've roofed with it and had the motor turn for 14 hours straight. No, it's really 8hp. Takes 2 of us to get it into the back of a truck. Or 1 really motivated guy and a long ramp. But what a bummer that something with that motor wouldnt run an Eaglespray, huh? I snap an in line filter between it and a pressure pot sometimes though, and it does that fine. " Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders" - Nietzsche

6. 
   Clay | Apr 08, 2003 09:03am | #15

   I use an Accuspray cup gun with an old Titan turbine.  It is a great set up.  The Accuspray stuff is not cheap ... but the difference is worthwhile.  I have been lurking in another site where I notice that a lot of guys are using an Astro conversion sprayer for an inexpensive system.  They seem happy with it and it's price is right.  I am sure that the Accuspray that I have is a better system, but the Astro may be okay for what you need.  The gravity feed model will probably run off of your compressor for at least occaisional jobs.  Here is a link to one source for the Astro gun:

   http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/3730.cfm

   You can search for "Astro HVLP" on google for many other sources.

   Ultimately for a professional a top quality turbine system is well worthwhile, an Accuspray or Asturo system.

7. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 08, 2003 11:32pm | #16

   Clay - the Astro needs 10 CFM (and that's average)to run it. It takes a larger compressor to get continuos spray with the Astro. No fun spraying for 15 seconds, waiting 3 minutes for the compressor to refill, then spraying for 15 seconds again.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

8. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 08, 2003 04:06am | #14

   Dennis - you can get a decent HVLP conversion spray gun that will work with your 3 HP compressor - made by Wagner. I did a quick search on google.com and came up with this example - http://www.gleempaint.com/hvcongun.html

   I have one of the Wagner/Capspray Maxxim II spray guns (very similar to the $129 model in the link) and it sprays well. The Wagner conversion HVLP spray gun will work with a compressor as small as 1.5 HP. For the price, I don't think you can beat this spray gun unless you had a much larger compressor.

   If you wanted to get into "pro" level spray equipment, my favorite spray gun is the Asturo ECO - it also works with a very small compressor but costs quite a bit more. I've heard good things about the Walcom spray guns, but haven't tried one. I like the Asturo better than the Kremlin M21, Wagner Maxxium II, Binks 2001, and Devilbiss 501 & 502 spray guns that I use for different stuff.

   Airless is not a good finish sprayer (unless its air-assisted airless). And the air-assisted units go for about $2K. Great for production work (and on-site work), but not so handy for infrequent spraying and small items.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

2. 
   RW | Apr 07, 2003 07:21am | #8

   to add,

   don't put sanding sealer under poly

   Lacquer can be it's own seal coat. Hit it a few times lightly first, then go with full wet coats.

   Vinyl sealers work good under CAB and for sealing oily woods such as rosewood before lacquering.

   My 2 cents

   " Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders" - Nietzsche