Replies

1. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 27, 2003 06:44am | #1

   "When it dried it felt like I had sprayed it with sand paper. "

   Dennis,

   You didn't say whether you were spraying nitrocellulose or water-based sanding sealer. You can end up with a "sandpaper" finish with either, but water-based dries so quickly, especially with a turbine driving the gun, that it's more likely with water-based.

   Several things could have happened, the most basic come to mind:

   *  Sprayed from back-to-front, contaminating the previously sprayed pass with overspray

   *  Too much air/not enough finish

   *  Sprayed from too far away and the finish started drying before you could lay down a nice fluid coat

   I'm sure several highly experienced finishers will chime in with additional information (and wouldn't be at all surprised if their conclusions differ from mine!).

   Set up some practice pieces, work under the best light you can manage, and don't forget this isn't life-or-death: have fun!

   Good luck,
   Paul

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
1. 
   DennisS | Nov 27, 2003 07:11am | #2

   Hi Paul -

   Thanks very much for the comments and suggestions.

   I 'practiced' a few strokes on some cardboard before I started the real thing but guess I need to do some more. I didn't think too-fast drying would be a problem in my unheated shop (temps hovering around 50/high 40's - risky, I know but the paint store guy said it should not be a problem with this stuff).

   What little spray experience I've had has been with an airless doing latex painting of interior walls and such. This is a totally different animal I can see!! I'll try different gun-to-surface distances and see if that helps.

   The surface *did* seem to be handling dry quite a bit faster than the can stated, though.

   Sidebar question now that the sealer is on .....

   The sales guy said one could cut the finish laquer (this is *not* waterborne stuff, btw) one could cut it as much as 50/50 and still build a good finish - with more coats, of course. If it turns out the material is too much for this cheapie little outfit I may have to thin it down quite a bit(?)

   Cambell-Hausfield, I think the model is the 250. It's a pretty light weight in the HVLP arena but I'm definitely *not* a pro finisher to rationalize an expensive setup. I have more time to try to get it dialed in than money.....(hehehe)

   Thanks again for your expertise.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

   Edited 11/26/2003 11:13:13 PM ET by DENNIS

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 27, 2003 06:57pm | #3

   Remember, sanding sealer is meant to be sanded. Applying a smooth finish is not a design feature. It is made to build fast and sand easily. They contain stearates to sand easily and should not be used under oil based products and particularly, not under poly varnishes.

   However, spraying lacquer based products can be problematic with turbine units. They heat the air and cause fast evaporating solvents to begin or actually dry before they get to the surface.

1. 
   Sancho | Nov 27, 2003 08:14pm | #4

   Sounds about right for a sealer, even with w/b. Now spray a second coat sand and go on to a build coat then sand then a finish coat. you should be alright. BTW If it really to rough maybe you have to adj the gun to spray for more mat'l and or slow your spraying down and go a bit slower over the area to be spray and apply more mat'l. 

   Darkworksite4:

   Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN

1. 
   DennisS | Nov 28, 2003 07:39am | #6

   Ron -

   As I mentioned to Howie - the sealer sanded back to a nice smooth finish just fine but you're right - too fast with the gun and not enough material on the surface to level out. Plus I think I need to work with thinner material as well.

   Thanks for the reply - and thanks to Howie, too. Think I forgot to thank him.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   theRev | Nov 29, 2003 01:08am | #7

   Not sure if you have played with the needle size, but try that as well.

   Also, you can try going 1:1 with thinning the lacquer. I have never had any success with only a 10% or 20% thinning. You might be surprised how smooth it will come out. It might seem thin, but you can do several coats a day, so it really is better than doing thicker coats, I think.

   Scott

3. 
   DennisS | Nov 29, 2003 09:21am | #11

   Hi Rev -

   I've been using the "thin" needle so far and yes, I've eventually gone to about 50/50 with the lacquer. Also, I think I've been trying to lay on too much material. This evening I took the time to shoot practically a whole cup's worth of the 50/50 onto some scrap material for practice. Well, not scrap exactly, my big cut-off sled for the table saw. I found I could start at one end with an extremely light spray, both material and air, and but the time I got to the other end, the start was dry enough to the touch to re-coat. So building coats like this might be the answer for this whimpy unit I have.

   As a side bar note, now that I've got this door slab with a coat of finish as heavy as a layer of plastic laminate! (grin) - since I need to get this bedroom door hung, and by the rate of my progress learning to lay down a level finish, I've decided the best thing time wise at this point is to simply rub the thing out.

   I've got to 320 grit so far and thought I had it pretty well shined up. No orange peel and nice even reflection of the work lights, albeit they are diffused due to the now matt finish. I figured I'd wax it to bring back a bit of the luster. Only the wax (carnuba) accentuated the 320 grit sanding marks. I hand sanded always with the grain, but they're still evident to anyone who knows what they're looking at.

   So the question is - would 600 or finer wet-or-dry paper be a good option to work up the luster? Using a water lubricant? I've rubbed out a couple varnished pieces in the past with pumice and rottenstone with water and like the result. Would these work with lacquer as well?

   When I sopt and think about it, I realize just how silly all this is to spend this kind of time on a door, but it's become an obsession with me! Besides, my neigbor is a cabinet maker/finisher and I want to impress the he!! out of him (grin)

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

4. 
   theRev | Nov 29, 2003 11:23am | #13

   If your spray is drying that quickly, I tend to think you aren't spraying heavy enough. Getting to the right combo of thinned mix, air flow (not quite as important, though), material flow, and pattern width, (oh, let's not forget distance from object) it can take a little getting used to, I know. You want the stuff coming out of the gun pretty good, not misty. You should be able to spray a horizontal piece leaving a nice glossed surface when you get all the above put together.

   I find that most pieces I spray can be moved after about 15 minutes. That doesn't mean they are total dried enough to bang around, but not tacky so that I can get them out of the booth and get onto the next piece.

   You might want to swallow your pride for a second and ask your neighbor for some advice. It might speed up your learning curve.

   Scott

5. 
   DennisS | Nov 29, 2003 07:28pm | #15

   Horizontal surfaces aren't too much a problem with respect to getting that much material on the surface, but with vertical surfaces there's a fine line, and I do mean fine between enough to get that gloss surface you mention and ending up with something that looks likee gramma's saggy nylon stockings! (grin)

   Like the man says, practice, practice, practice. Then go practice! (hehehe)

   Thanks, Rev.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   DennisS | Nov 28, 2003 07:37am | #5

   Howie -

   Thanks for the advice. "...meant to be sanded." Hence the name, eh (grin)

   It was indeed easy to sand it back to a reasonably smooth surface with very little drying time.

   I think I found at least part of my problem - I was way too far from the surface with the gun. Thus the material was probably half dry by the time it hit the work.

   I'm into my third coat of finish (lacquer) now and still having problems with orange peel. I don't think I'm laying enough material on the surface for one thing. This little unit I'm using only develops 6psi at the gun tip so I have to remember to slow down to lay enough material on the surface. I had this door hung from the rafters so I could shoot both sides at the same time but in order to get enough material on it to level out I had to resort to laying it flat.

   I've thinned my lacquer 1:5 but still don't get much of a mist for atomization. While cleaning the gun tonight I sprayed straight thinner onto some cardboard to play with the controls to see how more/less air and more/less material produced this or that spray results. I think with this low-life spray unit I need to thin the material down more and figure on building several coats to get a level finish.

   This is a flush panel flat cut birch door, by the way. As I'm laying the finish coats onto it, I'm beginning to realize I wasn't heavy enough with the sealer, either.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   PlaneWood | Nov 29, 2003 01:53am | #8

   Dennis -

   I use Deft brand lacquer and rarely thin it any.  Sometimes will add lacquer retarder on very hot days and/or humid days.  I was also told by a Deft Rep that sanding sealer was not necessary, at least with their brand.  I let the unthinned 1st coat cure for 24 hrs then sand it down. 

   Sometimes will thin it on cold days (below 60+/- degrees) to prevent the runs.

   I have found that Deft does better if I spray it on heavy enough to get a wet appearance.  At least until the next two adjoining laps have been sparyed. 

   I use an el-cheapo compresser type CH spray gun kicked up to about 50lbs pressure.

   Oh yeah, dewaxed shellac as a first coat can help prevent orange peel.  Nitro lacqer will adhear well to shellac.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

1. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 29, 2003 02:41am | #9

   "I was also told by a Deft Rep that sanding sealer was not necessary, at least with their brand. "

   Planewood,

   As I recall from your previous posts, you're quite an experienced woodworker. However, for the benefit of others I thought it might be prudent to add a comment regarding sandling sealer: the stearates that are added to lacquer to create sanding sealer not only make it very easy to sand (thus the name), but provide a color barrier that helps prevent dyes and stains from infiltrating the finish coats.

   FWIW,PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   PlaneWood | Nov 29, 2003 03:17am | #10

   Paul -

   That is why I added the phrase "at least with their brand".  I have found other brands of lacquer to not be the same in that regard.  I've used lots of sanding sealer in the past, but have not found it necessary with the Deft brand.  I just spray on one coat, sand, and then apply the last coats.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

2. 
   DennisS | Nov 29, 2003 09:27am | #12

   Thanks for the advice, Mike. As I mentioned to Steve, I've taken the material down to about 50/50, played with the machine to produce the nicest looking cut-off sled in the county and I'm zero-ing in this HVLP stuff. A little, that is.

   Do you have any suggestions to my question to Steve about rubbing out the finish? I'm not after a glass/mirror finish, just a nice luster. I suspect a semi-gloss material would have been a better choice to start with.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   PlaneWood | Nov 29, 2003 06:58pm | #14

   0000 steel wool and lots of elbow grease with a soft cotton cloth.  If you use a machine buffer for the flat surfaces, then wait a day or so longer before starting.  Use a slower speed if it's variable speed.  Hand buff around all raised edges.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

1. 
   DennisS | Nov 29, 2003 07:30pm | #16

   Thanks, Mike. I'll give it a day to 'rest' then hit it with the steel wool as you suggest.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   DennisS | Dec 01, 2003 09:22am | #17

   Mike -

   I just wanted to follow up and thank you again for the steel wool bit. I rubbed the begeezus out of that door slab today, put two coats of carnuba wax on it and it's absolutely beautiful! Granted I've got more time and money into finishing this cheap door than I paid for the door itself, I'm none the less proud of what I was able to achieve with the help of you and all the others here.

   Thanks again!

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   PlaneWood | Dec 01, 2003 06:42pm | #18

   Anyway to make a pic and post it here??

   Hopefully the door is yours so you will be able to glance at it occasionally over the years.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

2. 
   DennisS | Dec 01, 2003 07:04pm | #19

   Soon's I get it hung I'll snap a shot and post. Long story but they screwed up the frame and I'm waiting for a replacement so it might be a little while.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]