Replies

1. 
   sschefer | Mar 25, 2002 07:42pm | #1

   Sorethum1, what type of work will you typically be doing? I think if you can get the answer to that then you can concetrate you expensive tool purchases in the proper areas and save a lot of money by outsourcing the one off things.

   Steve - in Northern California

   If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?

2. 
   lwilliams | Mar 25, 2002 07:43pm | #2

   Sorethum,

   Buy your tools as you need them. Each wood worker develops their own preferences and styles. If you try to anticipate needs too far into the future you'll end up with a lot of money tied up in garage sale inventory that's never been used.

3. 
   jeffn7 | Mar 25, 2002 07:57pm | #3

   absent of more info on the types of projects you will be taking on:

   1- check out ebay, you can get some good deals there on new and used tools. Just be sure you know the market prices before you buy to ensure you are getting a fair deal.

   2- I disagree with the previous post about buying tools when you need them because this puts you at the mercy of the market. I buy tools when I find a good deal on something that I anticipate I will need. Of course, you could buy too early and miss a end-of-year of closeout sale, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Generally speaking, when I have bought tools in order to finish a project I have paid more than I would have cared to pay.

   3- HD has a price guarantee, if you find something with a better price somewhere else, they will match it and take an additional 10% off. Just something to keep in your back pocket.

   4- buy good tools when it counts, and lower quality/cost ones when you know it will do and you don't mind replacing it. I have a ryobi 12v drill that I bought years ago when I was setting up shop, it was inexpensive and did the job and since then I have bought other cordless drills that were more powerful and better quality. About the same time, I bought a bosch jigsaw and it's been the only jigsaw in my drawer from day 1.

   5- invest in handtools.

   6- look in the classifieds ads in your local newspaper

   finally, looking at the "big picture" can be financially frightening... it doesn't have to be that way. On the machinery side, a tablesaw, bandsaw, portable planer and a drill press can get you through a lot of projects. As for power tools, an orbital sander, cordless drill, and a jigsaw get lot's of use on a regular basis in my shop.

4. 
   PMurrett | Mar 25, 2002 07:57pm | #4

   I think this will be an interesting thread and I look forward to the other posts.

   Many, many years ago my mother said to me "we can't afford cheap clothing."  This doesn't mean to say that we then did all of our shopping at Brooks Brothers, but her message was that that you shouldn't be afraid to spend a fair amount on something that you wanted to have for a while.  While I haven't always followed this advice, I have often regretted it when I didn't.

   And I think the same applies to tools: buy the best you can afford and save yourself the cost and trouble of buying something twice.  What you get in the bargain is fewer tools that you will have a greater appreciation for.  Avoid single purpose tools and gimmicky jigs -- they rarely deliver good bang for the buck.

   And lastly, Larry makes a very good point.  As your skills develop you will gain a better understanding of what you need -- verus what you merely want. 

   Good luck!

5. 
   user-394086 | Mar 25, 2002 08:39pm | #5

   I'll assume you want to build furniture, like many of us, until I hear differently.

   Good equipment:

   tablesaw, jointer, cordless drill, planer, router.

   Moneysavers: Corded drill, circular saw, finishing sander.

   I don't really recommend getting cheap anything. If you need to save money, do it by buying good quality used tools when you can. Ebay, local newspapers, Tradin' Times, (a local sales paper in the Chicagoland area) and garage sales. A good rule to go by when deciding. If it craps out on you, are you going to get hurt or will it ruin something expensive, or will it just be a minor setback? Another good rule (for me it has been, at least) Machines where accuracy is paramount should be good machines. The cheaper ones will not hold their accuracy for as long. Generally, your stationary power tools should be good quality stuff, whereas the handheld power tools you can get by with medium or low quality stuff.

   Most importantly, pick your project first, then get the tools you need to build it. Try to pick projects such that you only need to make one big purchase at a time. If you can help it, don't pick a project that will require a drill press, bandsaw, and tablesaw if you don't have any of them.

   I know, I know, you don't need power tools to build anything, but time is worth something too, isn't it? (the time it takes to tune and learn to use a hand tool well)

1. 
   SCFrankland | Mar 25, 2002 09:03pm | #6

   Buy a good book on making shop jigs.  They will show you just how easy it can be to make alot of different things with very little in the line of tools.

   I know, I know, you don't need power tools to build anything, but time is worth something too, isn't it? (the time it takes to tune and learn to use a hand tool well) True it is called time well spent.

   Scott C. Frankland

   Newfoundland Wood Worker

   Edited 3/25/02 2:10:17 PM ET by Scott Frankland

1. 
   sorethum1 | Mar 25, 2002 11:27pm | #7

   All of these responses make sense, and I appreciate them. As a hobbyist, I will be making household furnishings, including shelving and a mantel, but I am making a display case, and hope to make a mission chair among other things.  I have most hand power tools, most of which have been adequate.  I'm not thrilled with the ordinary hand tools I have, and I'm struggling with the table saw then drill press then jointer or whatevers, because they are the biggies.  I even struggle with the back saw purchase, because I think I want the dozuki and it's 3 times the cost of others.  I want straight cuts so I bought a used clamping miter saw.  I need sharper chisels, which means grind stones....  Then there's all that dust!.  Anyway, keep the suggestions coming, I've go a long ways to go, and I'm looking forward to it. Todd

1. 
   domermatt | Mar 25, 2002 11:52pm | #8

   I'm a fellow hobbyist who also struggles with tool choices. I always try to buy the best quality tools I can afford. For a while I worried more about cost.  Now I realize a tool that will outlast me is a better deal than a cheap tool that will need replacing unnecessarily soon. I'm 21, and plan to be around a long time, so I buy my tools to be around a long time as well.

   Also, cheap and inexpensive are not synonyms in my book. Cheap means poor quality, inexpensive means low cost. There are a lot of cheap expensive tools out there, and a lot of inexpensive quality tools.

   Hope this helps.

   When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka

2. 
   SCFrankland | Mar 25, 2002 11:58pm | #9

   Sand paper is all you need to sharpen chisels, plane blades, etc.  As for cheap dust collection you cannot beat a dust pan and broom.  As for the big stuff look for used equipment.  All of my bigger tools are used, though I just ordered a new table saw.  With a keen eye and a little knowledge as to what to look for you can get some real good tools for real good prices.Scott C. Frankland

   Newfoundland Wood Worker

6. 
   AntzyClancy | Mar 26, 2002 01:13am | #10

   My 2 cents:

   Never buy cheap tools for any reason.

   If you will not be using ply wood, don't by a table saw until you have everything else. 

   Buy high quality wooden hand planes or antique Stanleys (if you don't mind tuning them up).  Start with a low angle block plane and a smoother, a shoulder plane would be next but that's expensive.

   By antique chisels.  Don't buy the ones in high demand, the others of lesser cost are still superior to most of today's offerings.

   Buy a 2 hp plunge router with variable speeds.  It will do everything well.

   Don't by anything you can build yourself: router table, router table fence, feather boards, crossing (cross-cutting) sleds, jig this, jig that.

   Digress: Why is it "cross-cutting" and "ripping"?  It should be either "crossing" and "ripping", or "cross-cutting" and "rip-cutting".  My vote is for the former.

   Stick with finishes that do not have to be sprayed.

   Build a bench out of 2X4 pine.  Made mine for $180.  It is very heavy, large, rock solid, and I love to beat on it.

   Not sure if sharpening with sandpaper is cheap.  That's been my method for the last year and I've gone through a lot of paper.  A diamond stone lasts forever.

   That's all I can think of right now.  Good luck.

   Todd

7. 
   user-108047 | Mar 26, 2002 05:18am | #11

   I've been outfitting a shop for some four years. I figured (four years ago) it would take a year to complete,  and now I hope the shop will be completed with in 18 months. As I started working wood my preferences developed, what I wanted from my shop became clear. At this point four years after I started I would offer the following advice:

   These are inexpensive (not cheep) shop outfitting guidelines I have figured out, plagiarized, or barked my shins on enough that I recognized them as good advise.

   #1 Buy and install good lighting. every time I switch on the 38 florescent bulbs in my shop I thank my self a lot.

   #2 Never by the big stationary equipment new unless you know why you need it new (instead of just needing it). My jointer and table saw are both older than I (at about 50 years each) because I didn't need new ones. In total I paid about $1000 for dollars (and my time to restore the equipment) for a 14 inch table saw and 8 inch jointer (careful shopping) and a tilting arbor shaper. This takes time and patience but I don't have the money (part of why this process has taken four years so far).

   #3 Never buy a big tool unless you understand why you cannot do it some other way. If you ask 100 wood workers what is the best way to do something, you are likely to get three of them to agree on the best process. This is a round-about way of saying that one can fake the functions of any of the big machines with some thought and shop supplies. I purchased my jointer because two operations that the volume increased enough I decided I NEEDED it (flattening stock, and rabbiting stock) due to the slow setup times; it was worth the equipment purchase and by doing it I had learned what I needed.

   #4 Everything must to more than one job. I likely will never buy a tool like a mortising machine or a spindle sander. These can both be done by a drill press in the volumes that I know I need much more efficiently, or with hand tools. The best example of this is an arbor (shaft and two bearings with a center mounted drive shive) I am building. It will accept 8 inch grinding wheels and function as my grinder, tool sharpner (different wheels and speed), tool buffer (same), and bowl lathe (wheels off on one end and bowl plate installed). These functions are ones I need, they can share an arbor because of a tool I will purchase for my shaper when I can afford it. The arbor that will handle a 100lb bowl blank will cost me $120 dollars if I purchase it new before a used one comes my way, and the motor will be a used 3 phase motor (cost a six-pack to an electrician friend and being driven by a second nearly free used motor acting as a rotary phase converter). I will be into the thing more in grinding wheels than in cost for the tool.

   #5 Buy big tools used, have the money ready, and shop, shop, shop. Stuff on Ebay is inexpensive, especially if you can avoid shipping. My 450Lb Shaper was delivered by the seller because he was moving near by. The shaper will also do duty as an unmatched router table with the addition of used Variable Speed Drive (VFD) allowing the 3Ph motor to spin to router speeds. The same VFD will be used on all my tools that I want variable speed on (see #4 above)

   #6 Plan, plan, and plan. This is a lesson in patience in it's self and includes research. Every time I look into a sideline area of woodworking I get an idea that may need to be incorporated into my shop function, and I know I will be putting off the completion of my shop for an additional few months if I do so. But I get a better finished product and more time to shop. By keeping a vision of what I want to accomplish in my head when the right thing comes by I can jump.

   Do you know where I can get a great deal on a slightly used 1 1/4 inch arbor with two pillow block tapered roller bearings?

   Good luck and if this become frustrating you can choose to look at this as I have; the Lord has offered me the opportunity to develop my patience through this exercise.

1. 
   sschefer | Mar 26, 2002 06:02pm | #12

   Now the I have an idead of what you are planning to do. I can make my recommendations.

   First - I recommend a table saw. A good contractors saw should be all that you need. I also recommend that when you buy expensive tools that you should buy new and buy through a dealer whose reputation you have investigated. I know a lot of folks recommend buying used but what happens when 6 weeks later something breaks. You have just spent a bundle on a piece of equipment and now it doesnt work and whats worse, you have to foot the bill to fix it. With new, in most cases, you won't have a failure but if you do, the manufacturers warranty will cover the costs of the repairs. 

   Second - I recommend a good router combo kit and again I recommend new. With the combo kit you will have the best of both worlds in that you can use the fixed base in a router table, (that you build yourself with the table saw), and you'll have the plunge base which you will use a lot.

   Third - A significant amount of money should be spent on tables saw blades and router bits. Router bits in kits in my opinion are a waste of money. Buy bits when you need them and buy the best. Some will say buy good when you know you'll be using it a lot and cheap for one off scenarios. I say buy the best and don't risk injury with cheap. Top of the line saw blades can save you a lot of time. I recommend a 28 tooth Rip Cutting Blade, a 40 tooth Combination Blade and an 80 Tooth Cross Cutting/Plywood Cutting Blade. Buy the best you can and use them in the appropriate manner and you'll save from not needing a jointer right away.

   Down the road a bit you'll want to start looking at a Drill Press, Band Saw and Jointer. Some would recommend the Band Saw before the Table Saw but I have never found a band saw that I could control well enough to Rip with without having to do a significant amount of cleanup afterwards. The Band Saw is a good investment and you will use it a lot but I don't consider it essential in the beginning. The Drill Press is certainly a big boon to any shop but more because it will save you a lot of time rather than the fact that you can't get by without it. For the time being you can buy a portable drill guide that will get you by. The jointer is something that I really want now. I'm not that good with a jointer plane and I find myself wanting perfect, (not just suitable), jointing. Since I don't have the time or the wood to practice my hand jointing technique, a good jointer now makes economical sense to me.

   Hope this helps and good luck in your decisions.

   Steve - in Northern California

   If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?

   Edited 3/26/2002 11:06:18 AM ET by Steve Schefer

2. 
   jaydr75 | Mar 26, 2002 08:52pm | #13

   Intuitive Design,

   You asked about pillow block bearings/shaft--try prairietool.com.  they are a USA manufacturer of shaft, bearings, abrasive wheels/stones, and accesories.

   As far as tool investment, I've taken the route of buying a few used machines, (drill press, table saw, jointer) and good quality used hand tools.  If I were to spend a lot of money on power tools, I would want to spend the money once and use the tool my whole life.  Unfortunately, that puts some of the higher quality tools out of my reach--for now.  Thus, I am constantly keeping an eye on the classifieds, used tool stores, yard sales, and even antique shops/flea markets for good quality hand tools or power tools.  I don't buy much, but I keep a list in my head of the tools that really would make a difference in my woodworking and only buy when I have a justafiable need on a current project or planned project, if the price is right, and if the restoration/tuning time won't be a burden.  So for right now, my used power tools are definitely compromises in terms of power, but you'd be surprised at what a good old table saw can do with a high quality carbide blade, and for a lot less investment up front.

   Anyway, this has given me an opportunity to start my woodworking career on the "ground floor" by learning key basic hand skills and hand tool tuning and setup.  I have developed a basic set of Handplanes by Stanley, Sargent, and Record, mostly Pre-WWII and in good shape.  I am making do with some old craftsman and stanley bench chisels, and bought an old English mortising chisel from an Antique tool dealer.  For sharpening, I attach different grits of sandpaper using spray adhesive to a piece of plate glass inlayed in a wide pine board.  I have a few old cross-cut and rip saws by disston and atkins, a backsaw (cross-cut) and a open-handled dovetail saw (rip), and I either inherited them or picked them up at an antique shop for $5-10, then sharpened them and tuned them up.  I use the handsaws all the time for small cuts or roughing out parts that would be too bulky to put on the table saw. 

   I think most of the marketing that goes into the woodworking culture is hype, with an endless stream of magazines, tv shows, tool reviews, "miracle" jigs, ads, sales, etc. , it is easy to think that you need to spend $4000 to be a good woodworker.  When you get down to basics, you can spend a lot less money as long as you put some time into developing basic skills.

   Jay

8. 
   MPHarper | Mar 27, 2002 07:55pm | #14

   Sorethumb,

   I am also in the process of setting up shop and getting all the tools I need (WANT).  I have come up with a trick that is helping me decide what I want to buy, and how long it will take me to get it.

   I am finishing graduate school which obviously means I am on a tight budget so I sat down one afternoon and made a list of all the tools I want to buy, tablesaw, bandsaw, drill press, planer, jointer, etc. the list is long.  I have done alot of window shoppong and research and I know exactly which brand, model, and features I want.  I also know how much each tool costs.  With my list of tools showing the costs I added it all up and then figured out how long it would take me to save up enough money to buy the tools, (approximatley 1.5 years) which is perfect because that's shortly after I will finish school.  SO now I have a little bank account that I put money in each month.  It makes paying for the tools alot easier.  I don't feel nerly as bad about $40.00 a month as $1500.00 a pop, and I will make a little bit of interest too, even if it is only a few dollars.  And, I hope to keep my little fund going after I buy all my tools for future woodworking spending. 

   The other advantage I like about not buying until I have saved up and have cash in hand is I that it makes me take the time think about the tools, which ones I want first, why I should get that one first and what will be next.  It also allows me to see the direction I am going, maybe in a year from now I will be more interested in turning wood and will want a lathe before I but something else.

   It's exciteing to get new tools good luck finding what you want.

   Matt-

1. 
   BenM | Mar 27, 2002 08:07pm | #15

   In 18 months at $40 per month you will have saved $720, plus interest.  Your wish list of tools is impressively long for $720.

1. 
   MPHarper | Mar 28, 2002 12:35am | #18

   Ben,

   $40.00 was just and example number, my real scheme is a little more involved.

   Matt-

2. 
   user-394086 | Mar 27, 2002 08:41pm | #16

   That's not too bad of a plan, if you can stick it out. In the meantime, you probably won't be doing much woodoworking, and what you do will have to be pretty simple. I think if it were me, it would be an agonizing 1.5 years. To me, it makes more sense to buy tablesaw and some other basic, less expensive tools to start out with. If you don't have enough for a basic tablesaw, hold off until you do. You can make some OK stuff with a tablesaw, drill, chisels, and a plane.

   Another way to save money is to buy lumber for a project. For me, it takes a long time to actually finish a project, (only having about 15 hours a week in the shop and being a beginner) so that means that once I get the tools I need and the lumber for that project, I won't be spending any more money on woodworking until the project is done. If you really want to save money, pick something complicated, that's over your head ;) It will take you so long to finish, you will have saved tons of money by the time it's done. (assuming you don't have to buy all the lumber twice to fix your mistakes)

   Start with basic projects that only require basic tools and build as you go.

1. 
   sschefer | Mar 27, 2002 08:52pm | #17

   Those are some very good points. You can't forget that you have to feed the tools in order to complete a project. It wasn't until recently that I started buying decent tools. I never really accomplished a lot with the old junk that I had but I sure had a lot of fun making sawdust. Now, I have good amature tools but find it difficult to choke down the prices of decent wood. Once again I'm limiting my projects but now its because I can't afford to buy the wood.Steve - in Northern California

   If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?

2. 
   MPHarper | Mar 28, 2002 12:48am | #19

   You are right about the tool thing.  I forgot to mention in my first post that I already have three routers, a router table, a nice 12" mirte saw, chisels, planes, circular saw, and some other small tools, and I have a good friend that has a shop and he has invited me to use it whenever I need to (its an excuse for him to have to spend time in his shop working).  So I currently have access to a table saw, planer, jointer, bandsaw, drill press, shaper, etc.

   I have to admit its a sweet deal for me right now and I appreciate the genrosity of my friend.  It allows me to make most anything without having to own all the tools right now.  I often go to his place for an evening or Saturday morning and dimension all the pieces I need for a project.  After that I can do most all the other work at my place.  And, occasionally I take the time to buy some lumber or dinner for my friend to say thanks.  Its a setup where two woodworkers can feed one anohters addictions.

   Matt-

1. 
   SCFrankland | Mar 28, 2002 03:17am | #20

   I have a shop full of good heavy industrail tools that I bought by doing odd jobs.  I have a real job that pays all my bills and gives me some disposal income that gets spent else where than the shop.  I build several projects for clients everytime I want a new tool.  I am doing a small trim job for a guy and ended up with $50, box of steaks, a new computer hard drive and a graphics card.  The steaks will keep my strength up, the hard drive and graphics card will allow me to keep talking to you people, and the $50 will go into the tool fund.Scott C. Frankland

   Newfoundland Wood Worker