Saw Blades and Stacked Dado Sets
I am uncrating and setting up my new Powermatic 2000, and need some advice, please.
I read reviews about the “Freud SD608 8-Inch Dial-A-Width Stacked Dado Set 5/8″ Arbor” at Amazon.com, and about half of the reviewers expressed frustration at not being able to mount the cutters on their saws’ arbors. Apparently — in order to make a full, 3/4″ wide dado cut — you need an extra long arbor.
Do any of you Powermatic 2000 owners know, for sure, whether or not the Freud SD 608 is compatible with the PM 2000, and whether or not I’d be able to use the stacked set’s full width-cutting capacity?
Also, I’d appreciate any recommendations with regard to where to source the best dado insert (with the above Freud setup) for use with my saw.
The above dado set is comprised of 8″ cutting components: Is there any advantage in paying for the 10″ set, and would the larger set work with the PM 2000.
I am also going to need to order a saw blade, and am looking at the Forrest WW II (40 tooth) and the same blade in the 60 tooth version; they’re about the same money, so is there any reason to get the 60 tooth blade instead of the 40 tooth, or vice-versa?
Any input or general comments on dado sets, blades, and/or the saw and its inserts would be very much appreciated.
Replies
sasquatch55,
Arbor lengths vary (even between saws of the same model#) so the best way to determine the maximum dado you can stack with the Dial-A-Width dado is to measure the arbor and do some math. The hub takes up 7/32" so take the total arbor length, subtract 7/32" and subtract the thickness of the arbor nut. Compare the remainder to the max dado width indicated by the saw manufacture and the lesser of the two is the max dado you can stack.
Freud America, Inc.
I net about 3/8" after subtracting the 5/8" width of the arbor nut from the arbor shaft lenght (1 3/8")The Dial-A-Width won't work with "the gold standard" saw, which is amazing to me, given its popularity in craft and light-commercial service.Seems like the powers-that-be at Powermatic and Freud would put their heads together, share some coffee and an Egg-McMuffin and solve this.I'm no engineer, but it seems to me it'd be no big deal to lengthen the arbor shaft, say, a half-inch and put this problem to bed, once and for all.The dial-a-width has been manufactured for years, so I guess either the Italians doing the manufacturing refuse to improve on the design (and don't care that their sales are being adversely affected), or the people at Freud don't seem to care that the dial-a-width is suffering in numerous applications because of its adaptability issues.I guess my only recourse is to order the Freud #500 series and mess around with shims. It's a shame.Thanks for your time.
sasquatch55,My math yields 21/32" but I hear and understand your frustration. If I recall correctly, Delta offers a special nut for dado applications that allows for wider stacks so it may be that Powermatic does as well.We would like nothing more than for the Dial-A-Width to fit every saw on the market and the Freud engineers don't refuse to improve on the design. To have an adjustable hub requires that some of the arbor length be used. The hub is as thin as possible while still having the strength to be a durable component. I hope that you can find a way to make it work or find that the SD500 fills your needs.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
I didn't mean to convey the impression that I was attacking Freud, just don't understand why there isn't a more effective collaboration between Freud and its intended manufacturing base: The folks cranking out the tablesaws upon which your adjustable dado set is intended to be used.If most of the people on Amazon.com are commenting that they've experienced a similar inability to use your product -- and their comments reflect a broad spectrum of both contractor and cabinet saw product lines -- it seems that there would be sufficient impetus to overcome this product deficiency and market a work-around, instead of suggesting that the customer rely upon his own ingenuity, time, and resources to discover a solution.I've never been in sales, so I guess I'm not qualified to address that mindset, but it seems to me that the easier you make it for you customer to use your product -- coupled with the fewer people you disappoint, when they learn the product they've purchase won't work on their saws -- the better off Freud and its customer base would be.Just a thought...Again, thanks for the replyEdited 4/10/2007 11:58 am ET by sasquatch55
Edited 4/10/2007 11:59 am ET by sasquatch55
>> just don't understand why there isn't a more effective collaboration between Freud and its intended manufacturing base:Perhaps you are castigating the wrong party. As Charles has said, Freud makes the dado with the minimum space needed for the adjusting mechanism. The issue is with the arbor length which is under the control of the saw manufacturer, not Freud.Most, if not all, contractor saws have an arbor shorter than full size table saws. They always have. Why, I don't know. There may be some safety or clearence issues. In fact, most contractor saws manufacturers recommend using a 6" dado, not a 8" dado. On my contractor saw, my 8" dado could have dangerous clearence issues if I tilted the blade. Many of the new "hybrid" saws are really based on contractor saw components so they may have the shorter arbor length.I feel that the issue is with the saw, not with the dado.Howie.........
No castigation intended, as I said in an earlier post.I think the mission of the manufacturer and supplier (both saw manufacturers and saw-accessory suppliers) is to work together to make life simpler for the customer.If half the people buying your dado set for their saws aren't able to use it, it seems to me that it would behoove you to contact the people making the saws and try to work out a design accommodation. My saw isn't a "contractor saw," it's one of the leading cabinet saws designed for the serious wood-worker, and, as such, should fairly be considered the platform that saw-blade (and dado set) manufacturers would be designing for.Another poster suggested an alternative solution, which would be to simply rule out two-thirds of your target customer base (by eschewing such a collaboration with the saw manufacturer), but then take measures to publish the dado set's application limitations: (e.g., "Will not work on a Powermatic 66, Powermatic 2000, Delta.....", and so on, etc.)What you have, now, is a situation where lots of people are purchasing this tool with the reasonable expectation that it will work on their saw(s), and then having to contact the manufacturer to find out why it won't.Again, I don't mean to slam Freud, which manufactures excellent saw blades, and has for years. It's more a case of their being in a position to fix a problem -- either through re-engineering their current product, or publishing its limitations -- or doing nothing at all, and continuing to piss off a not insubstantial number of customers.(See: Amazon.com commentary for further clarification)
Sasquatch,
You keep saying that you aren't castigating Freud and then follow that statement with things like these...
If half the people buying your dado set for their saws aren't able to use it, it seems to me that it would behoove you to contact the people making the saws and try to work out a design accommodation.
...rule out two-thirds of your target customer base (by eschewing such a collaboration with the saw manufacturer)
I don't mean to slam Freud, which manufactures excellent saw blades, and has for years. It's more a case of their being in a position to fix a problem -- either through re-engineering their current product....
It isn't Freuds product that is at fault here. It also isn't their responsibility to force Powermatic (or any other saw manufacturer) to fix a design deficiency in their product. All they could possibly do is bring the subject to Powermatics attention, and the only way that would do any good is if Powermatic wasn't aware of it. Do you think that is the case? I know when you have just dropped $2500 to $3000 on a saw that it's hard to think that it isn't all it should be, but that is the case. It is Powermatic's fault and it is their problem to fix.
Rob
As long as we're weighing in, I'd have to side with sasquatch55, I don't think he's overly critical in sharing his pain. The industry needs appropriate feedback and while over-reacting is definitely the wrong approach, soft-pitch doesn't convey the appropriate information either. Plain and simple, It sucks that in this day and age a common accessory fits one but not another standard, common tool, a tablesaw. Is this Freud's problem? Not really, but as members of the industry, yes, somewhat. But, importantly, and what impresses me, is that Freud is here to discuss this issue. I haven't seen WMH Tool Group weighing in on any forum. In any case, back to the first point. As in other industries, the industry should work to improve its industry. It should, as others, get together annually in an industry seminar, conference, whatever, as other industries (automotive, medical, shipping, materials logistics, etc...) do. Sharing information and setting as many standards on common sizes, accessory attachment points, etc,... as can be agreed. I remember when this wasn't the case and every manufacturer used their engineering "correctness"/uniqueness as a competitive tool. But in the last 20 years, if not longer, many industries have moved to share specs and move to common specs to serve the greater market rather than continue to turn out products based only on their internal engineering decisions that mostly delivers a "unique" headache each product cycle. Why is the industry that serves the moderately serious amateur, to semi-pro, to light industrial woodworking crowd still mostly all over the board when it comes to common specs, sizes, etc...? This smacks of old school to me, compete through excluding. Last thought while I'm on a roll, unfettered, appropriate sharing of the pain, is the way to inform those that give a damn best. Kudos to Freud, I'll be checking out their products for something I might be interested in but I'll apologize upfront because if I think something is wrong I'm going to say so whether it hurts their feelings or not. Demand common standards for arbor length and other aspects of common tools and we'll all be better off, you, me, Freud, WMH Tool Group.
I agree, except I don't know what Freud is supposed to do about the length of the arbor on a Powermatic saw. They can't force them to use one of the proper length. And like I said before I'm sure that Powermatic is already aware that their arbor isn't long enough to use a 3/4" dado blade safely. I don't know why they choose to sell them that way, but they do.
Rob
Your post kindles a fire that reverberated through the computer industry many years ago. In my former lifetime in the computer industry we faced a similar issue, that being Open Architecture. Oh the infights were fierce!
Noone wanted to share the intracies of what made their particular widget better than another, poor marketing strategy to be sure. Afraid of clones? Wow, I think that thinking, at least with respect to woodworking tools is woefully too late.
IMHO it is unfair to blame it on one but rather the blame should be placed on all. Until manufacturers see the light as to the benefits of an open architecture, to some degree here, that being to provide for aftermarket accessories instead of their own, they will not realize their full potential in terms of sales.
How many times have we heard reves from those of us who have had a pleasant experience from the service end of companies, i.e. Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen? In this day and age the name of the game is service, not touting my product as being better than yours!
Just my 2ø,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
If Powermatic were the only saw manufacturer with a "design deficiency," you might have a point. The fact of the matter is that there are more table saws (contractor grade through cabinet saw) that can't use the Freud dado set in question than there are saws that can.In any event, Freud isn't paying me a consultation fee, and they're free to continue plodding down the same marketing and manufacturing path. As I said, earlier, I read the comments on their tool on Amazon, and the majority of those who bothered to post an opinion were annoyed that they'd purchase a tool that wouldn't work with their saws. There was no literature to indicate which saws the adjustable dado would work on, and which saws it wouldn't work on. The tech support people get these sorts of calls all the time, and advise the users, after the fact, to measure their arbors and determine whether or not the Freud unit will work. This is little consolation to the buyer, who's now faced with the necessity to return the product and file for a refund.The simple solution would be to include a list of saws that are known to be incompatible with this unit, owning to an arbor of insufficient length. When you purchase packaged software, for instance, the vendor and manufacturer typically list minimum OS, memory, and hard drive storage requirements in order to avoid your purchasing software your computer is incapable of running. Maybe I've got it all wrong, after all, and Freud should continue to do exactly what it's doing, now, and not make a single change.If it's broke, don't fix it.
sasquatch55,This is valuable feedback as are many of the comments on Amazon. Please be aware that this is not a simple matter of which saws the dado will "fit". The SD600 series Dial-A-Width dado sets can be operated on most saws available today. The limitation is usually in the width of dado that can be made and whether the maximum that will stack on a particular saw is enough to satisfy the needs of the individual consumer. In order to fully inform the buyer we would have to know the exact arbor length and nut thickness of every saw and the max dado width recommended by the saw manufacturer. And since those specifications are subject to change we would also have to regularly get updates from the saw manufacturers and publish the new specs for the dado. Then we would have to force all of our dealers to also publish this info. (BTW, Freud didn't write the product description that is on Amazon.)
In regards to the the Amazon "Customer Reviews", the concept of feedback from customers is good but you should always take unmoderated comments like those on Amazon with a grain of salt. There are certainly some that are valid but there is no way to discern which are actually even real customers. They could be people who just have an axe to grind and some could even be from competitors. Also, happy customers are a lot less likely to post comments than disgruntled customers.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
You have to take the good comments of your customer base, along with the critical ones, and accept them both at face value.If you return to Amazon.com, for instance, and read the comments associated with your series 500 stacked dado set, the reviews are overwhelmingly positive: "5 Stars" for the old-fashioned stacked dado cutters that employ shims, but a far less generous "3 Star" rating for your "dial-a-width," 600 Series, hubbed version, simply because of the above-mentioned disconnect between what purchasers THOUGHT YOUR TOOL WOULD BE ABLE TO DO, vs what it actually COULD DO, when installed on their saws.Let me refer you to your own site: If you follow the link -- http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/sawblades/Dadoes/html/Dadoes_1.html -- you will find informational and promotional copy written to describe the functionality of both tools. "Exhibit A" bullet-points the capabilities of the "SD600 Series Dial-A-Width Dado Set," and describes the tool as having a performance range of, "...1/4" to 29/32" and there is no mention, anywhere, in the copy of there being any application limitations: Even though Freud tech support receives daily calls from its customer base complaining of the tool's limited functionality (or non-functionality) on their table saw, Freud has not included any sort of Application parameters which indicate such limitations.Contrast this with the description -- directly below the SD600 Series -- of the "SD500 Series Dados". Allow your eye to drift to the bottom of the SD500's bulleted list of attributes, and what do you see?You find an additional sub-catagory -- omitted above in the SD600 section -- entitled, "APPLICATION," in emphatically bold print, and there are two further bullet points, the first of which takes pains to inform the buyer, "Use on all table saws and radial arm saws for cutting slots, grooves, dadoes in softwood or hardwood..."Comparing the copy on the "600 Dial-A-Width" directly above it, you'll note that there is no APPLICATION sub-catagory, nor there is there a similar representation that the tool will work on "..all table saws, etc., etc....," Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I find it somewhat curious that Freud would go to great lengths to advertise the universality of the 500 Series dado set, but sort of "forget" to mention the LIMITED application parameters of the 600 Series tool.In any event, this problem (buyer ignorance) would be easy to remedy: Simply add a similar APPLICATION sub-heading under the 600 Series Dial-A-Width Dado Set, and advise your customers to contact tech support (provide 1-800-technumber) to discuss potential design limitation issues.A simple disclaimer would suffice -- "...NOTE: The SD600 Series Dado Set requires an arbor length sufficient to accommodate the tool's proprietary hub mechanism, and not all 5/8" arbors meet the minimum arbor length requirement. Please contact Freud tech support, a Freud dealer, or the downloadable pdf file (linked) to receive instructions on how to determine whether your saw will be able to fully make use of this tool's capabilities.Thank you,YOUR FRIENDS AT FREUDhttp://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/sawblades/Dadoes/html/Dadoes_1.html
Edited 4/11/2007 9:19 am ET by sasquatch55
To avoid sounding argumentative I will only respond to say thank you for your input on this and your concern. We always strive to improve and since you have made yourself available to discuss the matter instead of making anonymous comments I definitely take your comments at face value.
Charles MFreud America, Inc.
Edited 4/11/2007 9:48 am ET by CharlesM
You're more than welcome.Because I'm a selfish sumbitch -- and want the best tool available -- I will continue to order from Freud on a regular basis, even though your people can't yet walk on water without inflatable footwear.
Charles,
I too have several of Freuds products and use/like them a lot. As an aside, and along with this discussion, more detailed specs might aleviate problems of acessories that don't fit their intended hosts.
Perhaps Powermatic et al should state their arbor specifications and likewise Freud might specify minimum arbor length for dado blades?
I'm not trying to criticize but rather offer a solution so as to overcome the lack of standardization by saw manufacturers. IMHO it would further enhance Freud as a provisioner of products that potential users could better determine if they will fit their hosts.
making anonymous comments Huh?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A loyal fan of Freud, no not that one!
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/11/2007 11:10 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,Thank you as well for your interest and feedback!
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Howard,
I suspect that this has to do with vibration tollerances in the different wieght cabinets of these saws, although the reason may have been forgotten by sales staff.
The arbour acts as a lever on the motor mounts, the longer the lever the greater the effect of any imbalance. In a heavy cabinet the resulting vibration would be more effectively damped than in a light contractors saw frame.
Don't own any of this stuff but have come across the problem in other applications.
Dave
More probable than vibration but related, is the thrust capacity of the arbor bearings. The longer the lever arm the more load they see.
I still have trouble with why people want to run large diameter dado blades. Typically a 6-inch should cut any dado or rabbet you would do in normal woodworking on most 10-in saws. If the 10-inch blade is 3-in above the table, (which it is on both the PM-66 at work, and my Delta Contractors saw at home), the 6-in dado will make a cut 1-in deep. I can't think of what I would ever need to do that requires a deeper dado or rabbet. Also, the load on the motor and the bearings is directly effect by the radius of the blade, so for an equal width of cut, the drive train sees roughly 1/3 less load with a 6-in dado as compared to an 8-in.
And, Frued could probably re-engineer the hub on the adjustable width dado blade to accommodate short arbor lengths. (I haven't had one in my hands to look at so I can't say for sure, but if it works like I think it does they definitely can.) But since they haven't, they might want to be proactive and say on the packaging and advertising what the required mounting width is.
"the 6-in dado will make a cut 1-in deep. I can't think of what I would ever need to do that requires a deeper dado or rabbet."
I can't remember ever cutting a dado or rabbet deeper than 1", but I do routinely use the outer blades of a stacked dado set, separated by shims, to cut tennons. Those often require a 3" cut.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike, two standard blades, separated by shims, do the same thing. Admittedly, getting the spacing just right, is a bit tougher.
"Mike, two standard blades, separated by shims, do the same thing."
True, if you happen to have a set of matched standard blades. I don't -- but now that you mention it, . . . . ; - )
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Your predicament I'm sure is not new to woodworkers.
Perhaps if either or both manufacturers and accesory manufacturers were to publish the specs/requirements of their products more prominently it would help?
A 5/8" diameter arbor is certainly not uncommon, but as to it length.................
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"I am also going to need to order a saw blade, and am looking at the Forrest WW II (40 tooth) and the same blade in the 60 tooth version; they're about the same money, so is there any reason to get the 60 tooth blade instead of the 40 tooth, or vice-versa?"
A 40T will cut thicker wood more aggressively than an equally designed 60T. but the 60T will make a cleaner cut. If all other parameters are equal, the higher tooth count will yield a cleaner cut but with a slower feedrate, which in turn can lead to a higher probability of burning if the saw bogs down. 40T is more common for general purpose applications, 60T more so for crosscutting, but several other factors figure into the equation.
The WWII 40T is a very popular blade, and is one of my favorite general purpose blades. The Freud LU88R010 60T is another favorite...it's listed as a crosscut blade, but has a steep enough hook angle that it's quite capable as a general purpose blade in materials up to ~6/4".
http://www.epinions.com/content_226312687236 (LU88)
http://www.epinions.com/content_145552674436 (WWII)
Thanks. Very helpful, and I appreciate your response.
You wrote: "Is there any advantage in paying for the 10" set, and would the larger set work with the PM 2000."
If fact, I think you will find that the 6" set will work for just about anything you want to do with a dado set. It will cut dados to any reasonable depth you would consider when building furniture.
Regards,
Ron
Thanks for the input.I ordered the Freud 500 series dado (components and shims) earlier, today, and I'm sure it'll work fine.
>> I ordered the Freud 500 series dado (components and shims)Are you sure that the SD60x will not fit on your dado? I was under the impression that all full sized tablesaws manufactured for sale in the US had an arbor long enough to take full advantage of the SD60x. Maybe Powermatic has changed their saws as their older tablesaws had no problem as far as I know.I know it won't fit on most contractor saws and some hybrids.Howie.........
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