I am in the market for a new dovetail and carcass saw – I do almost all my joinery by hand and I need tools that will last and provide good results. Originally I was just going to go with Lie-Nielsen because their tools are a joy to use, the fit and finish is incredible and they are American made…. all important points to me. Then I found Gramercy on the web with a dovetail and sash saw that seems to be of equal quality to LN, but I have never heard of them. Has anyone used both products and can review them?
Also, on the Gramercy website they say that traditional joiners used a sash saw similar to theirs as a multi-purpose saw for rip and crosscut operations – how would the blade be prepared (set, rake, fleam etc.) for this task and is this different from the way LN prepares their saws? What is the difference between a “sash saw” and a carcass or tenon saw?
Thanks!
-Ian
Replies
you may want to check out:
Wenzloff saws
Bad Axe Saws
(and if you have a lot of $$ for a great product: Medallion saws)
on their web sites you will also find answers to many of your questions- I am not an expert so leave it to them to educate us all on saw design and features.
btw, I have a couple of Wenzloffs and L-Ns and love them all- tenon, carcass and dovetail (Independence saw- a predecessor to the LN)
Derek Cohen also has an informative web site with some saw reviews.
all are great products- you can hardly go wrong
jeff
Gramercy Tools is the in-house brand of Tools for Working Wood. I am the owner of Tools for Working Wood. The dovetail saw has received a bunch of top reviews including product of the year from Pop Wood. And in a comparison of carcase saws pop wood picked us no 1. FWW hasn't done any tests of dovetail saws since our saw came on the market. If you don't like anything we sell we pay return postage. So you can try the saw and see if you like it.
There are major but subtle differences in handle hang, blade thickness, and blade geometry between us and our competitors. Our saw is a lot smaller (but 9" long) than others and lighter. We think these differences make it easier to saw accurately.
Our saws are all hand filed which allows us to do more agressive rank and fleam angles than most of our competition and still have a smooth cut. Check the tooth setting of our saw, you won't find any blade deformation.
We learned from 18th century and early 19th century saws that the most common saws people had were a dovetail saw and a sash saw. Our sash saw is filed rip with a little fleam so that it works well on hardwood and the fleam gives a good strong tooth for crosscutting. (see my book "the Joiner and Cabinetmaker" for more info on the saws that were used in the early 19th cnetury. .
According to the Sheffiled Key (1816) A sash saw is 14" long and deep cutting. a carcase saw 12" and shallower and we have maintained that nomincalture. Tenon saws are longer and while some people really like a long saw, for regular work 14" were pretty common.
A carcase saw is a pretty good length for making cabinet carcases but not as verisatile as a sash saw (not enough depth of cut).
Our saws are also canted, that is the depth of cut at the toe is a little less than the depth of cut at the heel of the saw. We think this makes for more accurate, faster cutting but not everyone thinks it makes a difference.
There is a revival of saw making going on and there are a lot of good makers out there. Each maker has an idea of what makes a great saw. I would suggest getting as many candidates in hand and trying them out. It's worth seeing what you like and how our saw, and those of our competitors, fit in your hand and which "speak to you".
We also set a kit version of the saw, with a sharp blade so that you can customize the handle.
joel
I have been impressed with Gramercy for years now.
Joel,
Tools for Working Wood has ALWAYS done a great job for me and I appreciate your company very much. Thank you !
Unfortunately for me when I got all ready to get a big tenon saw years ago now ( actually two big saws after all was said and done ) I was forced into ordering the LNs. I like them well enough though the ones I received were bent. I went through all that here not long ago and won't elaborate.
What I am getting at is just as I needed the big saw Tools for Working Wood offered the Gramercy and then could not meet the demand. I believe your supplier let you down. In any case I waited months and there still were none to be had so I ordered the other guys. Other wise I would be sport'in Gramercy big back saws.
Not your fault. Just the way it worked out.
Thanks again for TFWW !
So Ian,
Here is my vote for the Gramercy saws.
I like to see photos so here's some
I laid out most of my western back saws and took a photo. There may be one or two more squirreled away here some where but this is most of them. And one "action" photo of the twins for good measure. I know, it looks like a freek'in Lie-Nielsen ad.
There is a whole family of really sweet Japanese saws looking on just above the bench here.
Part of the reason I mention them is there is one that Toshio Odate is responsible for having mass produced that has both types of teeth, rip and cross cut, combined into one saw. Not sure it is all that effective but you mentioned the one saw does it all concept. Here is a link to it just for the heck of it. Well this is a newer version I will post more details of mine later.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-JS340.XX
I came across this article while I was looking for the Odate saw
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/understanding_western_backsaws
PS: Mel,
Yah see those "gents" saws in there ?
Yuck ! Phooooy Pooooooy ! And they are all repaired: excess set taken out, sharpened, straightened, crimped so the blade doesn't move around in the back etc., etc., etc., Makes me tired just thinking about them.
SWC
Allow Me
. . . to make the LN chisels look inexpensive . . . practically free . . . in comparison they are paying YOU to haul 'em off.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05%2E306%2E38&dept_id=12795
That price is for ONE chisel by the way. It's all a matter of perspective. Go on, give LN what their chisels are worth and then you have them for the rest of your life.
I like my chisel
Made these all the more fun to make..
Ashley Iles Bench Chisels
are made of forged O1 steel. as long as you use a wooden mallet you can mallet away to your hearts content. Don't expect to be wearing them out in your lifetime.
note: good rule of thumb - Unless you want to use steel hooped chisels use a mallet with a wooden head that is softer than the chisel handle. Tis cheaper and easier to replace a mallet every 10 years than repair a split handle.
saw comparison
Ian,
Dovetail and carcass saws made by LN and Gramercy see frequent use in my shop. You aren't going to go wrong either way you go.
That said, I reach for the Gramercy saws most often - I think they simply draw on a superior historical model. The tapering blade, to me, provides a real advantage, as does the shallow blade height of the dovetail saw.
Out of curiosity, what are you using for saws now?
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