So Saw Stop has a Professional saw and an Industrial. I went to a great tool store today and could compare the two. Over 200lbs of difference.
1. The table is 3″ wider from front to back.
2. The Rails for the fence are beefier.
3. The motors come larger..
4. The shroud for the blade is small on the industrial and the pro has a hookup for collection in the back.
5. The insert bolts down on the industrial, and lifts out on the pro
6. The saw blade covers are different. The industrial covers more of the area. The pro is smaller but effective?
The biggest difference is the trunion system. The industrial is one big casting from front to back. The pro model uses two seperate pieces for the front and back with a large rod that connects the two together, much like Hybrid saws. One of the big issues shy Hybrids tend to be poor machines, those rods don’t stay put.
My question is how durable is this rod system on the Saw Stop, it is a fairly new saw by our tool standards. Any thoughts or personal experience out there on other differences etc?
AZMO
Replies
SawStop Professional Design is not Compromised
If the new trunion design were sub-par, I believe the deficiency would have presented itself by now. That saw is in many, many schools, prisons, and such institutions where I imagine it gets as much abuse as any tool would get.
The industrial saw wieghs in about 600 lbs selling at just over $4000 with the options. It was competing against the other saws on the market weighing 200 or more pounds less.
SawStop introduced the Professional Cabinet Saw to be more competitive with the under $3000 Saws. Reducing steel is one part of the price cut. Losing 200 pounds of steel doesn't necessarily mean a loss of robustness. The slightly smaller table is probably a significant part of the weight reduction. The rails may be smaller, but they seem well-designed and perfectly strong enough.You lift the entire saw by the rails to install the mobility kit.
The Professional Cabinet Saw has significantly better dust collection than the Industrial Cabinet Saw. The mobility kit is improved.
Despite the downsizing, I believe the Professional Cabinet Saw is a robust machine and a wise investment for any shop. It still weighs in at 449 pounds. Not sure how that compares to Delta and Powermatic.
Amazingly, the name SawStop, like Festool, and Fein, vehemently polarizes woodworkers. I find it is a superior designed, and superior-built machine.
Trunion
Cinc,
Thanks for the reply. I have heard no negatives for the Saw Stop other than cost.
I am a bit gun shy about the trunion due from a bad experience with a Delta Hybrid. It uses two rods to connect the front and rear parts together. Swore I would never buy another saw without a solid cast iron piece. The Saw Stop uses one Rod. It connects the two ends with 4 bolts. It is one rod, about 1" in diameter. Comparing that to a solid cast iron trunion it is not even close to the same. I wonder when tools get tuned down, and the compromises that are made. It is just over a year or so it has been out and used. Not a long period of testing....IMO.
So I am fishing for reports of issues, keeping it in alignment, bolts that have loosened, problems with this part etc.
Thanks Morgan
I went to buy a new saw a couple months ago. I did have some issues over and above price with the SS. Merely switching between a single blade and a dado blade set up looked to be a major pain. I had a number of issues. To each his own.
Other than the dust collection the Industrail saw wins in every category. I compared the saws back in August of 2007 at IWF when they introduced the proto-type. The first thing I noticed was the trunnions on the PCS opposed to the Industrial. An apple and a plum comparison. The table is wider on the industrail as it should be on any Industrail model. And you didn't mention the lack of a hydraulic system on the PCS which helps absorb impact when a brake fires and it also makes is easier to raise the saw blade.
Frankly... other than the brake and dust chute the PCS is just another cabinet saw with a riving knife and mediocre fende IMO. Because it has a brake and the price is more affordable to the average person who does this for a hobby.. it will sell.. sell.. sell as brakes are the trend with hobbiest. Without a port for over-head dust hose the chute is not going to get all the dust and I will personally be curious to just how many times the smaller trunnions are going to survive the impact of a brake fire when a piece of metal is shoved into the blade teeth to stop the blade.
Professional is pushing the package on marketing the saw IMO. I would think "Elite Hobbiest" would be a better handle as the casting.. table size.. and build in general just aren't what I would deem a professional saw ready to take on a work load 24/7. With that said the saw will sell.. sell.. sell! It's the trend or haven't you heard? ha.. ha....
Other issues
Sarge,
Thanks for the comments. A couple of things may have been changed. The Pro model does have a hyraulic lift assist for raising and lowering the blade. Both saws use a double belt assembly to drop the blade at firing of the brake.
The dust collection on the Pro is better than the industrial from the reports I have read.... The Pro model has a dust port built in on the back of the guard already, just add a hose connection and pipe it up and you have it covered. Maybe that is new as well? My DC is overhead so a drop down and seperate gate to the guard is prefered to an arm out to the side etc....
Your point about surviving impact of brake stops on the trunions are well taken, and my main concearn....
Morgan
PCS is Adequate for most small shops.
Sarge,
I agree that except for dust collection (which may be able to greatly improved with aftermarket systems) the Industrial model is superior. 5HP, larger fence, larger table, more weight, better trunion.
However, Not many amateur woodworkers can justify a $4500 saw investment. I would venture that most cabinet shops have a difficult time justifying that expenditure (unless insurance premiums and liability savings is significant with the safety system). I was not aware the trunion design may be inferior. Based on the success of their 1st saw in terms of design and quality of build I would be surprised if the design of the Professional saw was not of same quality standard. So far I find it so.
If I were running an operation where I needed a saw to run 3 shifts per day 24/7 I would have chosen the Industrial Cabinet Saw.
Some of us amateurs can't even justify $3000 Cincinatti! ha.. ha... The PCS is comparable to the new Grizzly with riving knife.. PM 2000 and the new Delta in most respects with the exception it has a brake. I won't say the fence is as good but the saw is good for most hobbiest work. The older Uni-saw (and there are thousands still around) had a 5 piece trunnion with a weak link in the left rear. That trunnion would break easily if dropped by a trucking company in shipment and the reason there were so many factory re-builts available for sale by various dealers. But.. once the saw was in place in a shop that fact was pretty much neutralized as that the saw was not likely to get handled in a shop as it is by a trucking company.
But.. look carefully at the trunnions on both the Industrial.. then the PCS.. Not close to as thick and the Industrial is a one piece. The Industrial trunnions are equilavent to the older PM 66 in size. My Steel City 5 HP Industrial is one piece also and a hair larger than the Saw-stop as I mic'ed both. The tolerances are as good also. The SC I have was made by Union One in Taiwan and not in their Chinese plant and not as robust. The Industrial is made in a different plant in Taiwan than the PCS also. But.. you are going to pay for robust on top of the brake technology so the Industrial has to be priced higher as it is more machine.
But... the bottom line is the PCS is likely a good saw for hobbiest as the saw does not see continous duty and it has a brake that you are going to pay for in lieu of running a plastic shield as most don;'t like shileds and take them off. I paid $1895 for my 5 HP which is robust as the Industrial SS but without riving knife or brake. I run a splitter with plastic shield so I am not really concerned with a brake as I have no intention of putting my hand within 6" of the blade and I run a crown gaurd.. feather-board (I use my own home-made spring-board) left of blade... a hold-down clamped to the short fence I use in most cases. I have all the robust saw I need for my own hobby work daily and the spurts of rip rough for hire that I take in when the opportunity presents.
I still wonder what the effect of brake trips will do to the smaller two piece trunnion over time? But.. that answer will only come with time to say it is "time tested". For around $100 a break plus saw-blade.. I seriously doubt anyone will intentionally run that test purposely at home! Maybe Bill Gates will volunteer? ha.. ha...
"The older Uni-saw (and there
"The older Uni-saw (and there are thousands still around) had a 5 piece trunnion with a weak link in the left rear. That trunnion would break easily if dropped by a trucking company in shipment . . . "
That's one of the reasons I've always avoided the older UniSaws. I like to work out by "pumping saw" in the garage, and I was afraid I might drop it, breaking the trunion. ;-)
Bucks and more Bucks
Sarge,
Thanks for your reply Sarge, you don't mess around on this issue I know. I have printed several photos of your set up just to have as a record, in case this site ever goes down... Your Steel City if nice, you got it for a great price after a show, but that option is not out there for us mortals....;>) As they have no product to sell, and many not be back in business, it is a mute point.
Yep 3 K is a bunch for a TS, 1500 for a Griz is a bunch. I made a bad purchase on my Delta and I don't want to repeat a bad decision. I use my saw alot, it is the heart of a shop. I have owned a TS since I bought my first Sears contractor saw when I was 15 with paper boy $. So I want to get it right, hence the thought process, and careful considerations.
I by Toyota cars because up until recently, they work and they are safe. The airbag systems, skid controls, etc are desireable. They have good survivability in case of an accident. Now, I don't plan on hitting a wall, I hope to swerve around it. But in case I do, why not have a car that rates highly for impacts? My wife gets safety and she would rather I keep all my fingers. Safety is good reason to buy a saw and an easy sell. I am not an industrial shop and never will be, so Elite Hobiest is a harsh word, but if the shoe fits.... I can accept that label as well.
*****
Some things I like about the saw are the over size bearings on the arbor shaft, when an impact does happen that is the primary source of load and stress on the saw. Good design start. The blade that drops after impact also is relief point for stress as well. They have designed and engineered pretty well to isolate stress into those parts.
How many times does a brake fire? If you contact it with metal every time. Wet wood is an issue (not much of that around here). So I really don't know how much wear and tear it will really have. If I am buying a brake and blade every month, then I am probably in the indiot group and god knows how I managed to keep all my fingers. Since I do have all my fingers then I probably won't have much issue.
******
My Delta fence is not acceptable either. It wears on the pads and I have to check adjusts on it quite ofter. It is aluminum sides and I would rather have a different replaceable material. What about the Saw Stop fence makes it inferior, or rather what about the other fences do you like better. What should I be looking for? Having not used very many different types other than my own saws and a Beismeyer at a school shop what do you look for?
Thanks for the help Sarge, maybe I will win the Lottery tonight and get 10 new saws and jus' keep the one I like.... Ha!
Later Morgan
You're a Bulldog
Sarge, Thanks for the photos. Now I see the problem — You're a bulldog! But a smart one. I too don't plan on my fingers being within 6" of the blade. I pray neither of us get there unexpectantly.
You make a good point about the trunion likely being weaker in the PCS than in other saws with a one-peice trunion. I will keep an eye on this as I do maintenance and alignment checks over the years on the saw.
The Sawstop line is a "luxury" for many of us. I hope no one felt they couldn't live without the brake technology. Like most, I didn't have $3K just laying around. The PCS was $300 more than the new Delta. So that is the amount I considered as the cost for the brake system. Other than that, I believed the two saws were about equal. (I also considered Tool CIty and Powermatic.) I didn't know about problems with two-peice trunion designs before I purchased.
With the new technology, I constantly think of what I'm putting near the blade, because things other than flesh will set it off. On my old saw, I've inadvertantly trimmed some aluminum or brass part of a few jigs. It will cost $170 the next time I miss something like it on the Sawstop. I also have to be conscious of the moisture content of the lumber. Since we have to think about what is getting into the blade, hopefully this design will make users even more aware of where their fingers are.
I understand the polarity the brake technology generates among woodworkers. I was set on the new Delta. The day before I purchased, something happened that caused me to change my mind.
Roll Tide!
It very well may have changed Morgan as I did the comparison on the proto-type. I have not looked at the PCS since as I have all I need sitting in place. I do have to run out to Woodcraft today to pick up a couple of quarts of glue as my local home depots and lowes are all well out of code on the shelf so I will have another look at the new an improved. I hope the fence has improved from the original as that is a major factor IMO. The original fence was OK but not great as I saw it. Again I am not in the market but for those that are that would be a major factor I would scrutinize.
Good luck in your quest... and good luck to me finding Tite-bond in code. :>)
Regards...
Hi AZMO, I don’t know if this company can answer any of your questions. About 2 years ago they changed over to saw stop saws, after a rash of accidents, and lost time. The wood shop is in Mansfield, MA. where they do all the milling, and customizing of doors. garyowen
CAPE COD LUMBER CO., INC. (H Q) 1-781-878-0715 403 Bedford St. Abington, Massachusetts 02351 , USA
http://www.cclco.com Fax: 781-871-6726
Love the Pro's Blade Guard
Morgan,
I had a look at the Professional saw's blade guard at a show and was really, really impressed with it. I have never used a guard on a table saw since I left high school (where we had to), but I really believe that I would use this one. The dust collection is amazing, and the guard looks to be user-friendly.
Another downside to the Sawstops? No sliding table. That would be the icing on the cake.
Frankly Azmo... if you have the cash.. if your wife approves of you spending it and prefers the brake for her own piece of mind..... there is a simple solution to the purchase of a new TS and I think you know what it is! The saw itself is going to do what any other cabinet saw can do plus afford piece of mine to your lovely when you are in the shop using it. As far as the fence there is no better IMO than the original Biesemeyer that had the bolt on the rear that rode the rear rail. It had a nylon pad on the base of the height adjustment bolt that rode that rail and the fence simply glides on it as the rear of the fence does not drag table as the new Beisermeyer's and most other T squares designed based on it do.
But.. with that said.. my first fence was a piece of jointed wood C damped on each side of the saw which was a 15 A circular screwed under a sheet of 2 x 4 ply. It worked which is the bottom line. The Delta T2 is not sophisticated but it works. So... just be sure whatever T square design you get locks well and does not move when you do lock it as I have never seen any fence I couldn't use if it performs those two functions.
You can talk about a new saw.. you can question the trunnion mentally in a fire situation as the early reports of mis-fires could have been exagerated (?).. but the bottom line at this point is I think you have really already made up your mind you want the PCS with a brake. So.. considering you have the money and permission to use it I personally think you are wasting your time by not going out Monday morning bright and early and putting your money on the counter at the nearest Sawstop dealer.
No need to over-think it.. time's a wastin' as you could be using the saw as early as Wednesday. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha...
Good luck with your new PCS.... I am sure it will serve you well!
I got da cash...
Sarge,
By Gollly I think you are right. Just have to see how it works out!
My first saw from Sears was not more sophisticated than yours either. Had to clamp the fence down front and back to keep it straight as well.... Took forever to make some small adjustments!
I'll take a Lataxe Pixture here some day and post it.
Later Morgan
SawStop Brake
I have had my SawStop for a little over a year.
I have set the brake off twice in that time. Once my fault and once I am not sure, I think there must have been a piece of metal in the walnut I was cutting.
Anyway, I sent my Woodworker II back to Forrest and the extra cost over sharpening was about $20 each time.
So it is not necessarily true that you have to buy a new blade each time you trip the brake.
By the by, I am very happy with the saw even with the two brake trips.
Domer
As I'm sure you are aware, SS uses a fixed-price marketing and you can only buy them from an in-state dealer. Therefore, it will cost the same no matter where you buy it... but you could shop local tax-rates. With either saw, you will need to buy a separate dado break if you plan on running a dado stack. I also highly recommend their mobile base. It is simply the best I've ever used, though I do not move my saw... but it is there if I ever need to. It allows the full weight of the saw to rest on the ground, providing a very stable base.
I have an ICS, the SS mobile base, Excalibur BG and an Excalibur sliding table. It was a bunch of cash, yes... but my wife and I have not been able to have children, therefore, it was a little easier for me to justify the purchase.
Since you need your hands to earn a living, factor in your downtime if you ever had an accident. Even a small accident would likely put you down for a week or two. Just think of it as a little insurance.
As for the difference between the ICS and PCS, I think you already know the details. With that said, with a little care, I think it is pretty easy to avoid ever triggering the break. I actually find myself more careful than I was with my old saw. When in doubt, you can always test your material against the non-spinning blade or run the saw in bypass mode.
Azmo,
I bought a Professional model SawStop last week.
No peer-pressure intended, but, Go for it!
--jonnieboy
Sawstop - Fence options
I too am looking at buying one of the Sawstop Cabinet Saw/Industrial saw units. Most likely the Cabinet Saw because this is for "hobbyist" use, and I quail at the thought of moving 650 lbs to install a mobile base.
Anyway, can anyone comment on the quality of the two different fences that are offered on the 1.75 hp Sawstop? It seems that the fence on the extended table version is not the same as on the shorter version. One salesguy told me that the fence on the extended table was better. I can see from the photos that the rails are different on these two models.
Any wisdom would be helpful (yes I hear that INCRA is good, but not ready for that yet)
Thanks,
Frank
Fence Options
Frank,
The fence from 2010 is different from the ones today. Mine delaminated, and saw stop replaced the sides for free. The new sides used different plywood, and nuts to hold them on with. The side table delaminated as well, and they replaced that to, free of charge. Great company that is commited to a great product.
I will bet you don't see real difference using either fence. If I did this over, I would but the shorter saw and not have the long side table. I use my track saw for sheet goods as that is easier to manipulate.
AZMO
Fence Options
Frank,
The fence from 2010 is different from the ones today. Mine delaminated, and saw stop replaced the sides for free. The new sides used different plywood, and nuts to hold them on with. The side table delaminated as well, and they replaced that to, free of charge. Great company that is commited to a great product.
I will bet you don't see real difference using either fence. If I did this over, I would but the shorter saw and not have the long side table. I use my track saw for sheet goods as that is easier to manipulate.
AZMO
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