I have a red oak tree 20″ dia and 40′ to the first limb. I has recently died and is still standing. It was struck by lightning about two years ago with no apparent damage except a 1″ wide strip of bark blown off from the top of the trunk to the ground. I would like to have the tree sawmilled and use the lumber for furniture, cabinets, etc. Is it OK to wait until fall to cut the tree down and take it to a sawmill? Will the wood still be OK if I don’t cut the tree down until October? I’m not too concerned about decay but am wondering if the wood will dry properly. I plan on stacking the boards (4/4 and 5/4) with stickers and letting it air dry in a shed for a few years before using it.
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Replies
A waste of time and effort for a common species like that. Just buy it from a dealer.
Turn what you have into firewood.
Thanks Boss, but I don't consider it a waste of time and effort. I would just like to know if I can get good quality lumber from a tree that has been dead and still standing for about 4 months before being sawmilled.
I'm going to disagree with Boss, also, but with a few caveats. Before I get to those reasons, let me say that I don't think you will have any problems with waiting, as far as the quality of wood goes. I've milled many old trees with good luck. As a matter of fact, I still have about 70 large red oak logs over at a friend's sawmill that were blown down when Hurricane Isabell came thru our area 3 years ago.From my experiences, usually the driving factor in such decisions is whether or not you have access to the means to load & haul the logs to the mill. If you're going to have to pay commercial rates to get someone out to your place to load and haul the logs, Boss is probably right. If you have access to some means of loading the logs onto a trailer or truck that you own or can borrow, it's more than worth the effort. Be sure, however, to check the logs for heart rot - either starting up at the base or working it's way down from a fork.
Thanks bd--I have a tractor that I can use to load the logs and a trailer that I can haul them on. I have done this with several logs before, but only with fresh cut trees. This will be my first experience with one that has been dead for several months. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Bill
When you cut it down, you'll want to seal the end grain immediately. This will help keep the checking to a as much of a minimum as possible with red oak, especially.
Red Oak is not as easy to air dry as other species like maple, walnut, and cherry, and even white oak, for that matter. You're gonna want to pay close attention to stickering it properly after milling, and keep the pile weighted down with as much weight as you can muster; i.e....cement blocks, heavy objects, etc..... as red oak enjoys a lot of movement during the drying process. After about 6 weeks, you'll want to re-sticker the entire pile, top to bottom, and bottom to top, turning all the boards over. These are just a few tips to getting the best possible results from air drying.
Have fun, and get ready for some hard work!!
Jeff
If the original poster gets a hundred board feet of usable furniture lumber from this exercise in futility I'll be shocked.
Sweat equity doesn't begin to describe the situation, and all over Red Oak.
That dead tree has 'heating source' written all over it. Highest and best use, IMO.
<<"If the original poster gets a hundred board feet of usable furniture lumber from this exercise in futility I'll be shocked. Sweat equity doesn't begin to describe the situation, and all over Red Oak. ">>Actually, I'd guess that he would get between 200 and 300 bf, from the portion below the first limb, if his estimates are correct.It will be difficult, as has been pointed out in previous posts, but it's not a bad tree to learn on. The experience may prove valuable if in the future he comes upon a walnut or some other more valuable species.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Useable being the key word.......
I did the blown-down tree cha-cha-cha long enough to learn it was a waste of time if one values their time.
I got lots of great, *free* lumber. Yeah, right.
Thanks Jeff--I didn't know about weighting the pile down and restacking. I'll be sure to do that. And I don't mind the hard work, it's good for you!! What would you seal the ends with?
Paraffin wax,,, the sawmill you use will be able to turn you on to some of it,,,, hell, they'll probably throw some in the deal.
You can use anchor seal, available at rockler, or if you have some old latex paint around, lay it on REAL THICK. Either will be fine.
Jeff
Plenty of old latex paint around here--I'll use that. thanks!
If there's someone in your area with a portable bandsaw mill (Woodmizer), you may be able to have your tree sawn without all of the hauling. IIRC, Woodmizer may have a referral service for owners in your neck of the woods.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I "learned" on a couple of similar trees to this.
First story: a buddy called up with some Red Oaks that were dead for a couple of years, still standing, and I could have all of them. It turned out that we fell 10 trees and milled 30 decent sized logs. However, the outside 1-2" of wood was dead, poor, pithy stuff that I wished we would have sawn off. The insides were pretty good, but get ready for wormy wood. Red Oak dead attracts lots of insects, so if you like worm holes get ready to celebrate. If you don't like worm holes, then burn it.
Second story: another buddy from work calls, he has a 36" RO, 40' of good log, fell down last year. He already cut the butt log and second log, and left me the top two. Not a good deal, huge gaping holes in the middle of the tree. I found this out after taking the logs and sawing. Out of two 22" logs, 10' long, I think I got 5 boards with no rot in them. Quite a few more half-length boards that look nice, but are a little softer and "pre-antiqued". Nonetheless, a learning experience.
Now, here's your lesson for drying Red Oak. I've air-dried piles of this stuff. Mill it and stack and sticker it immediately. Make sure you use good hardwood stickers that are plenty dry. After 3 weeks in the summer or 6 weeks in the winter, re-stack and re-sticker (in different tracks than the first stickers). After another 4 months, re-stack and re-sticker, especially the 5/4 and thicker stuff. After 8 months you can start to use it, or do what I do: DH kiln to completely dry it, then plane and stack for permanent storage. I don't worry about weight on the top, as I haven't had much problem with warps and twists. Wood will move whether you clamp it or not; and it may move after you've built something and finished it. I let it move on its own early, then I can mill the movement back out of it. Don't try to change mother nature.
If I can stress something with dead Red Oaks, make sure you rotate the pile and stickers often. Dead RO's are already starting to decay, and the stickers provide a great place to continue to decay. You WILL get sticker stain if you are lax on the rotating schedule.
Good luck
Thanks for the detailed response. My tree will have been dead about 4 months when I cut it and I'm hoping decay will not have set in yet. The tree just died in the last week or so and still has the leaves on it. I'll follow your advice on the stacking and stickering.
hi
Just read your post about the red oak tree that was struck by lighting. I would like to share my experiance sawmilling trees that were struck by lighting. About a yesr ago someone gave me several trees,or logs if i hauled them away.had to help cut them down. well one black walnut tree was struck by lighting at one time or other and one elm tree was also struck. To make a long story short the trees that had been struck by lighting were no good for lumber. The heet generated by the lighting strike seperated a lot of the groth rings. some of the boards just fell apart.
Have a nice day Lee
bldrbill,
Sawmills regularly saw standing dead trees that have been hit by lightening. Mostly ok with some losses sometimes.. Red oak doesn't attract a lot of woodboring insects a few but it's not been a problem..
You could get about 250 bd.ft. of mostly decent wood. As it comes off the tree there will be approximately 40- 60 bd.ft. of FAS stuff with the rest averaging around a #2 grade.. 20% waste is normal and if your sawyer is good he can increase the amount of decent wood that a log will yield..
Red oak prices have been dropping pretty hard with FAS selling rough and green at the mill for under a dollar a bd.ft. IT has been as high as $1.35 which has some sawmills in a tough spot.. they buy the wood based on that price and when it drops as quickly as it has they own a whole bunch of wood at a higher stumpage price than the market will pay!.
Recent drops in most hardwoods has hit the local area very hard! If you drive thru their yards you'll note inventory levels at near minimums (or below) some woods like Basewood, red pine, spruce and etc. are so low as to not justify the cost of sawing the logs let alone paying stumpage, hauling and other charges involved.. Pallet mils too have dropped the price they pay for pallet wood further reducing the market.. while the railroads have dramatically cut back on their railroad ties buying..
All that aside there is tremendous value in having wood with a story behind it.. Maybe not economically but personally..
In my house I know the location of nearly every timber/ board in it.. I know the farm where it came from and usually the story behind it..
You:
You could get about 250 bd.ft. of mostly decent wood. As it comes off the tree there will be approximately 40- 60 bd.ft. of FAS stuff with the rest averaging around a #2 grade.. 20% waste is normal and if your sawyer is good he can increase the amount of decent wood that a log will yield..
Me:
If the original poster gets a hundred board feet of useable furniture lumber from this exercise in futility I'll be shocked.
Edited 6/23/2006 1:53 pm ET by BossCrunk
Bos Chunk
you do know we are both probably correct?
Furnature gradeHmmm FAS, another Hmm
My sawmill has a grader who's job it is to grade hardwood according to industry standards.. the problem with that is you never know where a particular piece of wood is going to go.. If it takes 6 feet clear to make FAS and you only need 3 feet who cares? I've pulled flawless knot free wood from boards that were graded #3b or worse. Sure the piece may not be very long or particularly wide but if it's a nice piece the correct length and width who cares what it graded at, the worse the better as far as I'm concerned.. (lower grades are cheaper)
In addition I love to explore lower graded wood. That's where the beautifull figure is hiding.. Stuff that may not even make pallet grade may have this wonderful flame or burl in it..
My sawmill mills about 2 million bd.ft. per year and it's not worth it for them to seperate out the stuff with figure, character and other highly coveted charcteristics.. As a favor they set it aside for me and I always reward them with something..
Wander thru my wood pile some week.. or thru my house.. I proudly display wood with charcter. Fiddleback or burl sometimes flame or just an interesting knot. Stuff that sets the ordinary apart from the extrodinary.
OK that low grade board with the big knot in it, can't you see that as somebodies hobby horse with the knot as an eye? How can that flame be featured to grab somebodies attention? Wood that is straight grained and knot free may as well be plastic (plastic that shrinks and swells depending on moisture)
I mean how hard is it to cut a piece of wood X long and fit it into place? But throw in the creative use of wood's natural features and we've elevated a craft to an ART
FrenchTickler:
I'm aware that knots can be cut around.
We're not talking about Fiddleback Maple here.
You have the pick of the litter from a 2MM bd. ft per year operation and we're talking about blow-downs in this thread.
The guy is going to get a weak pickup truck load of lumber out of this exercise. He just needs to know this going in.
That's all.
Edited 6/23/2006 3:25 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss chunk,
We don't know how much wood this gentleman could use.. I have friends who couldn't use a couple of hundred bd.ft in ten years..
To me and most likely to you a couple of hundred bdft of wood is a blink. But I have learned a long time ago that I shouldn't judge others by my usage.
I still claim that his time will not be wasted in doing this.. watching boards peel off a saw is a wonderous thing. Having your own involvement adds greatly to its value. Value that cannot be expressed in mere dollars.. Frankly I would rather give information and let the person involved make a judgement as to the end result than use my own experince as the yardstick everybody else should measure things by..
You of course are free to choose another path and the wonderful thing is we both may be right!
If I have the pick of a 2 mm bdft. operation it's because nobody has spent the time and effort to get it themselves.
It's not like it's hidden in the back woods, it's right on the freeway, has it's own exit 30 minutes south of a major metro. If that one offends you or you would like to choose I can spend a few days introducing you to hundreds of sawmill owners.. Given nothing more than A simple list of woodmiser operations I could find every sawmill in any state in a few weeks. I say weeks because that's how long it would take to contact all the sawmil operators in Minnesota, perhaps there are few less sawmills in a state like Texas or Arizona.
I keep preaching the same point.. I'm sorry if it's boring, I don't mean to be.. after nine years I still get so excited I just vibrate whenever I speak about the ecomonies of a sawmill compared to the silly prices I used to pay for wood at lumberyards and specialty wood stores..
<<"The guy is going to get a weak pickup truck load of lumber out of this exercise. He just needs to know this going in.">>Well, now that you have informed him (and us) of his peril seven or egiht times, he should be safe...unless you want to do an intervention as well...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Boss,
Actually if anybody needs an intervention it's me!
right in my living room is 6000 bd.ft. of black walnut, about 1500 bd.ft. of fiddleback maple, a few hundred bd.ft. of odds and ends. etc.. Actually there isn't a room in my house without at least a thousand bd.ft. of wood. 1/2 of the driveway is filled with wood and down at the sawmill they are holding about 600 bd.ft of hackberry 2 inch planks (more is coming!)
I used to claim 20,000 bd.ft. of hardwood and then it creeped up to 30,000 and I might now have 40,000 bd.ft.
I tell you it's a severe sickness. I need an intervention!
Hello my name is Frenchy and I'm a woodaholic,.. it's been 6 days since I've bought wood..
Geez
Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back. I'll send over a case of icy hot, just in case.
The original poster of this thread, bldrbill, asked for advice on how to handle the tree that he WILL be milling. He didn't ask whether he should or not.
Once, just ONCE, I'd like to see you be the first to answer a thread with something positive to say, or with some helpful advice on how to ACCOMPLISH something, instead of ripping everything everybody wants to try or do. I've got some news for you, Crunk. You aren't such a hot shot, and your way isn't the only way. If everyone were as negative as you are all they time, nothing fine would ever get accomplished.
Try helping out for a change!, and quit your whining.
Jeff
If you guys want some more Crunky stuff, check out the post about pricing pedestal table! I think a red oak jumped up and hit him square in the noggin one day. Seems to have alot of agression towards those trees! I share sentiments about this guy...
Thanks for the response frenchy. I hope you're right about the yield and bosscrunk is wrong.
Actually, I estimated you might get 100 bd feet of FAS stock and Frenchy puts it at about 65 bd. ft unless I misread his post. Maybe I did.
You'll be able to work with grades less than FAS for flooring and trim but it's a major PITA to build decent furniture with sub-FAS stock but it's do-able. Like this whole exercise it will take a lot of TIME.
Edited 6/23/2006 2:39 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss, Frenchy, etc.BLDRBILL told us that the tree was 20 inches in diamater & 40 ft to first fork. Since he didn't tell us what his intended uses were, let's just assume that he's going to cut it into 4 10 ft sections for ease of handling. Since we don't know what the diameter is at the first fork, we'll have to make some assumptions on how the tree tapers to calculate board feet of yield. We can sort of bracket that by looking at the two extremes.Case 1: Assume that there is little taper to the first fork & that the diameter right below the fork is 15 inches. Also assume that the diameter tapers consistently to that point from the 20 inch base. That means that the first 10' log will have a small diameter of approximately 18 3/4 inches. Truncate that to 18. Per Doyle's Log Rule, a log with a small diameter of 18", 10' long will yield 123 bd ft of rough sawn lumber. Most bandsaw mills have higher yields than that predicted by Doyle's Rule, but let's stick w/ what the Rule predicts. Log #2 will have a small diameter of approx. 17.5". Again, truncate to nearest inch. Doyle's Rule yields 106 bd ft of rough sawn lumber.Log #3 will have a small diameter of approx 16.25". Truncate to 16". Doyle's Rule predicts 90 bd ft of rough sawn lumber.Log #4, will have, based on the assumption above a small diameter of 15". Doyle's Rule predicts 76 bd ft of rough sawn lumber.That's a total of 394 bd ft of rough sawn lumber for a very slightly tapered log.Case 2: Assume that the tree is tapered to a 10" diameter just below that first fork. Then using Doyle's Rule on all 4 sections as above, we get a predicted total yield of 245 bd ft of rough sawn lumber. I think assuming about a 20% loss without knowing anything about the log, would be reasonable. Of course, it could be more if there are voids/defects in the log, or a little less if the logs are good & sound. That yields about 200 to 300 bd ft of potentially useful lumber. I would suggest only BLDRBILL can determine whether or not that's worth his time.
Edited 6/24/2006 9:14 am ET by bd
That yields about 200 to 300 bd ft of potentially useful lumber. I would suggest only BLDRBILL can determine whether or not that's worth his time.
I think it is highly likely BuilderBill had no idea how many board feet this project would actually yield.
The same amount of FAS Red Oak, in a selection of thicknesses, can be bought for around $500.
Boss,
$500.00 worth of wood? nah!
priceless!
It's his tree, and a story that far exceeds the replacement value of the actaul boards..
It's not about accounting, it's about history and the effort he'll have in it.. Stuff like that cannot have a value..
To a pro or someone who makes stuff for the money you are absolutely correct, to a hobbiest it's about the journey as much as the destination..
<<" It's his tree, and a story that far exceeds the replacement value of the actaul boards..">>Frency,I agree with your riff, but you are talking in a language that Boss Cranky does not understand. It does not fit his world view, and thus has no validity or standing... as far as he is concerned the wood retrieved is not worth in dollars the time needed to do the job. Sentiment, the value of the learning experience, etc. don't enter into his calculus, and his view is the only one that matters to him. He must be a real comfort at funerals...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
A side effect of viewing the world with tunnel vision that extends no farther than the end of the nose.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Glaucon, yeh but I'm enjoying an intersting debate,, lifes too boring to have everybody agree with me.. maybe i should start up the anti cross cut sled debate again! <G>
Frenchy and glaucon and some others got it right. I don't care about the economics of this exercise, I just want the lumber from my own tree. and to make something with it. The same thinking applies to the furniture I have been making for forty years. If I worried about the time and effort, I would have quit long ago. If I factor in the cost of the shop I built and all the machines and tools in it, things get even more out of balance. The same applies to my gardening. The cost of the tractor, tiller and fencing out the deer makes the tomatoes, etc. pretty pricey. But these are hobbies, and I have never been accused of rational thought when it comes to my hobbies.
He must be a real comfort at funerals...
You are a wordsmith, and a real hoot!! (A major compliment from my neck of the woods)
Ole bass cranky has been bugging me for quite a while with his horse apple attitude.... I enjoy seeing others feel the same as I.
Jeff
Hi Glaucon,
As usual, your comments are pithy, informative, and entertaining.
The phrase that comes to mind when thinking about Boss Curmudgeon is MUTUAL INCOMPREHENSION.
I believe it may have been George Carlin who observed that, while the pessimist sees the glass as half-empty, and the optimist half-full, he thinks the glass is just too darned big; there's just no pleasing some folks.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Crunk, Third Declension:Crunk.Crank.Crock.Cracked.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon, and others,
Y'all are jumpin pretty hard on my lil buddy Crunk. Interesting how quickly a disagreement turns into name calling. Someone called me a "drip" here once...Every once in a while, even a pessimist gets it right. I'm not saying that it's necessarily so this time, but romanticism can be costly, and to some, it isn't worth the cost. I believe that one reason that the Boss gets folks all in a lather, is that reality sucks (sometimes) and most of us would rather ignore that fact as much as we can.
Just cause he's a pessimist doesn't mean he gets it wrong all the time. Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while...
Cheers,
Ray
A drip!?
Oh please. Don't go getting all wet on us Ray. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
We've gotten about 4" of rain in the last 48 hrs, another 2-4" predicted (some areas have gotten more than that) everything here is a little damp around the edges. Nothing compared to y'all in sunny old England though, wot, wot?
Cheers,
Ray
Definitions:
Ex - A has been
Spurt - Drip under pressure
Expert - A has been drip under pressure!
Any experts around here?
Also, why is it red oak. Mine isn't red!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
<<"Y'all are jumpin pretty hard on my lil buddy Crunk">>Vox populi, vox dei.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
Forgive me if my declension/case endings are incorrect, haven't studied Latin since 12th grade;
Quid rides? Mutate nomine, de te fabula narratus.
Whew, that made my brain hurt.
Cheers,
Ray
<<"Quid rides? Mutate nomine, de te fabula narratus.">>Raymond, Raymond, Raymond. Butchering Horace <sigh>.Mind the ablative (Mutato), and it should be a passive construction (narratur).Cum ita sint*, you will stay after class and clean the erasers. And sweep up all the sawdust. And sharpen the chisels. And the plane irons...(*"These things being so", i.e "Since this is the case"- Cicero):^)GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 6/26/2006 11:44 pm ET by Glaucon
Glaucon,
Still, not too bad after 36 yrs, no?
Your reply put me right back in Mrs Morrison's classroom, with her looking down at me over her half-spectacles, with their retainer cord looping down and around her neck. I cleaned the erasers after school more than once as a punishment--but then she'd give me the apples the goody-goodies had brought her-
Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est
Regards,
Ray
<<"Still, not too bad after 36 yrs, no?...
Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est">>Optime quidem!You think Latin is bad after 30+ years... Greek is even tougher!I think "Gallia" misses Caesar... now they are stuck with Chirac...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Reading your post, I thought I was reading an Umberto Eco novel. :)
PS For those who haven't slogged through one of Eco's tomes, he works very hard to show off his education. He does a better job of tell you he's smarter than you, than he does at telling a story you can understand and enjoy. As an example, in a single paragraph I saw him use three different languages, and didn't provide translations for any of it. Fortunately, Glaucon might be as smart but only writes a post like this as a lark, not to show the rest of us up. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
IMHO,
Three yrs ago, I had two live red oaks taken down, about 25 " diameter. I had a portable sawyer come up and saw it. I then loaded and transported to a local kiln. I ended up with 960 lineer feet of 4/4 in various 6"-8" and some 10" widths. I cut the logs into 6 ft lengths, easier to handle and good length for my purposes. whole job cost $900.00. I used some for a hardwood hallway in my house, some for a rollaway cabinet for my shop, and I am about to trim my shop out in it. i only do projects for myself, so I always get to pick the species. I dont care what other posts say, I like the look of Red Oak, it seems to get the short shrift in these threads, but guess what, it makes a great supply of wood to have on hand when I need some drawers for a project. Dont get me wrong, I do buy woods for projects, but to have a nice supply on hand for use as secondary species is ok. It came off my property, so I like that idea. I yielded about 60 percent. And I pick my pieces acording to my project, not all of it is perfect, but alot is.< I burn the scraps> I also resaw it to make drawer sides and backs. Point is, you alone need to decide if time and effort is worth it. I do not think you will have a problem letting it stand. I have three more waiting to come down. I would advise though if possible to have it dried. As an earlier post said, It does move a fair amount. I burnt alot of the 40% waste. Good luck and have fun!!
ps. dont have any idea on what lighting does.
Joe P-living in New England with Red Oaks and all.
Joe, I too like the look of red oak. I did my kitchen and a bedroom suite in it as well as a few other pieces. No problems yet with movement (10 years), including a bunch of raised panel doors.
I my experience, I had quite a few nice planks go in to be dried, and out came a fairly twisted board. So my yield could have been better than 60 %, but I only kept the good stuff and burnt the rest. Once dried, I have had no problem with movement any more than with any other species Ive used.
Regards
Joe P
Heres the thing - with these guys your gonna get all kinds of responses about how bad red oak is and how its not worth yoru time and effort. The things is, its your tree and important in that respect. If you can deal with the milling, drying, and movement, then by all means go ahead. All wood which is properly handled can be used. If you get 100bf or 250bf then that more than you had to start.
P.S. - Theres a hell of alot of furniture around today, after 100 years, that was made with red oak!
hdgis1
Before I break my arm patting myself on the back you should go back and read the nasty things I have to say about Elm.
I have said some positively vial things. How it moves around like a hootcie cootchie dancer, how it rots on a humid day, how it never can be sanded because it's either pure fuzz or twisty grain, and causes absolutely leathal slivers which have been know to attack in your sleep!
I have called it the juvenile delinquent of the wood world and I've even quoted somebody about what a poor fire it makes! (the quote escapes me at the moment because I'm not feeling particularly cranky at the moment)
So if Boss wants to have a wood that he lambasts it's OK, I'll do the same about Elm and somebody else will pick out each wood and we can all have a rousing debate!
(PS if you tell me about old Ironsides I'm going to scream!)
PS - wouldnt do any such thing! Especially since I have no idea who ole ironsides is! lol
Frenchy, thanks for the opening!>(PS if you tell me about old Ironsides I'm going to scream!)The following is a bit of Ol' Ironsides trivia -- & it's true, per a Naval Academy grad.--------------- LITTLE KNOWN NAVAL HISTORYThe U.S.S. Constitution (Old Ironsides) as a combat vessel carried
48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men.This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at sea.
She carried no evaporators.However, let it be noted that according to her log, "On July 27, 1798,
the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475
officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 400 cannonshot, 11,600
pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum."Her mission: "To destroy and harass English shipping."Making Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and
38,300 gallons of rum.Then she headed for the Azores, arriving there 12 November. She
provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine.On 18 November, she set sail for England. In the ensuing days she defeated
five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English merchantmen,
salvaging only the rum aboard each.By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted. Nevertheless,
although unarmed she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland.
Her landing party captured a whisky distillery and transferred 40,000
gallons of single malt Scotch aboard by dawn. Then she headed home.The U.S.S. Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February, 1799,with no
cannon shot,... no food,.... no powder,..... no rum, .....no wine,.....
no whisky and.... 38,600 gallons of stagnant water!!GO NAVY!
bd,
Well that might be a bit of a sea yarn,, but the comment I refer to is the fact/ rumor that elm was used instead of oak for it's planking due to it's greater ability to withstand cannon shot without splintering.. The "proof" offered is the name of the ship, Old Iron sides, supposedly cannon shot simply bounced off her sides.
I will testify (and so will anyone who has ever wielded an ax in an attempt to split a piece of elm firewood) that it is nigh unto impossible to split while white oak will split very nicely thank you..
Edited 6/26/2006 12:55 pm ET by frenchy
Well boss, you seem to have a real stir going here huh? I am going to play into this one just a little, the tree is stated to be so big and so tall..... and so this or that, but it isn't on the ground yet is it? You may be very right once the tree is on the ground and someone sees for sure if it is hollow or not. I was called out to look at a tree once in a similar situation, the homeowner was so proud that she was going to 'give' me a good bunch of wood, and you could literally see through the thing about 20 feet up. There wasn't enough wood there to make a pallet of matches. All this figuring and we don't know just how good the tree is, not even the guy that owns it. I had two maples that were over 70 inches in diameter and about 25 feet to the first fork, but when they came down there was enough room in them to throw a cat through and it wouldn't have anything to catch on. No one will know just how right or wrong they are until the gentleman gets the tree on the ground and tries to cut it into lumber. It very well might be not worth it especially since the thing died, but then again I haven't been around all the blocks in the woodworking world yet. :-)
I too have been marvelling at some peoples ability to see inside a still standing tree several states away and determine the quality of the wood with such certainty.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
The point that I was making is that even in the best of circumstances the gentleman will end up with about $500 worth of Red Oak. I don't buy the stuff often, I don't particularly care for it, but I believe the $500 would be a price if you weren't looking very hard for a good deal.
Obviously, I haven't accounted for the emotional aspect harvesting the tree, or if they guy is going to use this as a 'learner tree' and work blow-downs for a living or as stock for a furnituremaking operation. As I said in one of my other posts, I've done it and it took far too much time away from building furniture and millwork projects. If I lived in S. Florida and had access to Swietenia blow-downs I might sing a different tune or if I did a lot of green woodworking I might change my mind.
I knew the guy would get several posts applauding what he wanted to do. I don't mind dashing the cold water and presenting the worst-case scenario.
Edited 6/26/2006 4:12 pm ET by BossCrunk
What a lot of us need is a good dose of reality here. It all gets back to don't count your chickens before they hatch. Until you have something in hand you don't really have it. At what price did you achieve this pile of lumber? How much time and energy did you spend in getting this 'free' lumber? Doesn't look so free to me when you figure the work needed to get it useable even if it does render a large quantity of wood, as a matter of fact, from my past dealing with this kind of thing, it ended up being more costly than just going out and buying the stuff. Each to his own though, and we will enjoy the tales that come from it. :-)
Doesn't look so free to me when you figure the work needed to get it useable even if it does render a large quantity of wood, as a matter of fact, from my past dealing with this kind of thing, it ended up being more costly than just going out and buying the stuff.
That's been my experience as well.
pcooper
There is a whole world of differance here between those who do things to learn and have fun and those who do what makes sense!
If you measure fishing by the food you get it's far cheaper to buy it at the market.. if you measure fishing by the fun you get it's free food.
(ps. I hate fishing)
I've watched trees being logged and milled and was able to select which trees made it into my house. Sure didn't make sense because it took days of time just to spectate.However I have a sense of ownership in those trees few home owners will ever have.. See that timber in the corner? It came from a farm who's owners sold the wood to pay for his wifes medical care following the discovery of cancer.. It was old growth wood and that particular timber was growing before They signed the Declaration of Independance, it's over 270 years old.. grown on the north slope of the farm near his house, it was selectively harvested and if you were to look there today you'd never know that well in excess of 200,000 bd.ft. were removed from that particular hill.
Hey frenchy, liked the story with the old growth wood. That is what you call worth going for. I have some lumber that came from a situation like that, it is VERY old wood, and has the grain like nothing I have ever seen before or since. Someone told me that cherry trees don't grow like that, but this one did, and a single tree yielded enough lumber to supply several of us with about a thousand or so board feet each. Wish I had pictures of the tree to prove what I have, but don't. A tree like that is worth getting worked up over, or at least excited about until you know what you have for sure. Thing is, I got the lumber for $.30 a board foot and that was after it was milled into rough lumber. The thing with the tree being cut was the land was being sold for development and the tree had to go....so it went before the owner sold it. It was one of those things where it wasn't exactly a friendly sale, was for a road project and there were hard feelings involved but those of us who benefited by the deal are grateful. The guy that milled all of it had a mill going full time already and did the work for next to nothing since he was one of those getting lumber from the deal too. Something less than that kind of lumber such as oak is not nearly so valuable and the deal sometimes doesn't pan out that good.The thing with the oak tree is this, it is common and relatively cheap, so unless this tree turns out to be real good, is it overall worth the effort to work with, then the experience would be real expensive for learning with. If the owner has to buy equipment to deal with the one tree that he'd never use again, would that not play into the costs? Those are the kind of things I think about when deciding is a tree worth fooling with or not. Now if it were something real rare......I'd think very differnt. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily disagree with those who are agreeing with the work and all, just looking at the other side of the coin. Good stuff.
Edited 6/27/2006 9:22 pm ET by pcooper
pcooper,
The differance is the the tree came from his property..His tree.. There's an identity with a tree like that that simple transcends any market value..
I've restored cars and spent far more to do so than the car was ever worth (completely ignoring the value of work I put into it..)
You see if I just stood back and bought one freshly restored at an auction it would only have whatever cash value I bid on. (actualy kind of a silly process because it means you were willing to pay more than anyone else on that day)
Whereas when you restore the car yourself you own that car in a way that a mere buyer never will.
Forgive me Frenchy but what's so fun about transporting a log to a sawmill?
BossChunk,
Well I could get cute here and claim that he called in a wooodmiser owner who brought the sawmill to him.. I won't.
The difficulty you so politely brought up is not material.. It's a tree grown on his property. It has a identity far beyond mere money.. Besides if he were like me, the mere challenge of a task like that might be sufficient motivation to induce me to do it..
Well I could get cute here and claim that he called in a wooodmiser owner who brought the sawmill to him.. I won't.
Kind of like picking up the phone and calling a plumber.....
http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/giving.html
There are other sides to the coin, besides cost and sentiment. If the wood is usable and kept from rapidly converting back to C02, perhaps milling serves some environmental purpose.
As some have noted, perhaps, the narrative has value:
"So, great-great-grandpa went ahead, in spite of crunky good advice. He reckoned he had 500 hours and $500 in this tiny little red oak box. He gave the box to great-grandpa, who put a diamond ring in it and offered it to great-grandma, ...."
BobMc
I do like your thinking.. with regard to reducing the pollution levels caused by decaying redwood, however I question that statement not because I know or claim to know but because I don't know and I'd love someone knowledgeable enough to inform me.
The question is,
Would the pollution caused by decaying redwood be more or less than the pollution caused by harvesting that same wood and using it in a typical woodworking enviorment? (assuming some power tools)
Excellent question. I was responding to the firewood aspect of utilization rather than to the "let it rot" philosophy. But I agree that doing an energy and CO2 audit of total inputs and outputs is probably beyond the ken and ability of most of us.
I would guess some type of Leontief model (input-outputs) would be needed to really analyze it completely.
Let it rot-->CO2 release over a period of years.
Cut it down--> CO2 for chain saw energy + additional costs as below
Burn it-->CO2 release less decreased demand for heat energy from other source
Make furniture-->energy for transport, milling.
Increased demand for transport-->energy for more steel for trucks. Increased demand for milling tools-->energy to make tools plus energy to transport tools
Finish the furniture-->energy for manufacturing finish + packaging + transport
Etc. So there is no free lunch. But using the wood is probably less eco-damage than just burning the wood--but as noted, I don't know that for a fact, it's more of a heuristic.
Frenchy? Tour de France; France vs Italy in WC. Great time to be a 'Frenchy'. And as I often note, if it weren't for the French, we (US) would speak English today. (I heard a variation on that theme the other day: "If it weren't for the French, we'd be paying Prince Charles' salary today.")
BobMc
While my name may be French we can't find any french ancesters, We do know that on my fathers side everybody spoke German. Recent discoveries by my sister seem to indicate that my ancersters may have been Hessian mercinaries brought over by the British to fight those radicles who claimed Independance.Following the American revolution speculation has it they migrated to Canada..
I fully intend to steal your comment regarding paying Prince charles salary, thank you.. <G>
Apparently I've never even seen a live red oak, but for what it's worth I'd wait and pass judgment on the tree after it's cut down. It's easy to poo poo an idea or say it's definitely worth it while looking at the tree from outside. Not until the saw meets tree can anyone say if it's worth it.
What's inside could be quite rotten, have twisted grain, significant bug damage, some other grain imperfections that make it unsuitable for higher uses, or it could be quite good wood.
Personally, I'd love to have wood from such a tree. It adds depth to the projects that get built from it, and you'll always be reminded of that one tree. Powerful stuff.
The log should be OK but you should lay it down ASAP because there's a possibility that rain water will get down in the trunk and ruin the hardwood center. You may lose the sapwood but you wouldn't want it anyway.
As others mentioned, its better to saw it now and sticker it with weights. I always sawed to 100+ inches long and the closer you put the stickers to the ends the less checking you will get. Most boards will check to the sticker and then stop unless there's a lot of tension in the lumber, and you will not know it until you saw it. And you should use at least 4 stickers for an 8' stack. For logs this small cut all sides flat (square the cant) and then have the sawyer rotate the log 90 degrees after each board is sawn. That will give you only flat sawn lumber but it also releives the stress in the log. If you try to saw it straight through in what the French call a 'boule,' which gives you bookmatched lumber, many times the first boards will 'bend' ends up and the last board will 'bend' ends down and the center boards will be flatter.
Somebody with a portable Woodmizer is a good idea but they will probably charge a minimum to come out. Definetly get a bandsaw vs. a circurlar saw you'll save lumber.
John
Thanks John--that's the first I've heard about rotating the log 90 degrees after each cut. I had already decided to go ahead and fell the tree and seal the ends of the logs. Will probably do that in about two weeks.
You are welcome and latex paint is fine for sealing the ends of the
log and the sawn lumber. Just try to leave each log a few inches longer than the lumber you want to wind up with.John
bldrbill,
You don't need to flip it every pass. Sawmills who do this sort of thing all day long for generations don't. If you did flip it after every pass you'd better plan on losing at least a 1/4 of an inch in thickness per board.. that's what the dogs dig in at a minimum!
Typical is three or four passes flip cut three or four more time and flip etc..
The really skilled operators will be able to quickly "read" a log and know when to flip.. By carefull timing of the "flips" you will be able to get a better grade of board out of a log..
I've tried to seal the ends of logs with paint and had a remarkable lack of success. The ones I've seen that have been successful have put several coats on , heavy thick coats done a day or two apart. I prefer the wax stuff that most woodworking stores use. One sloppy coat is all it takes.. My sawmill uses a Hudson's sprayer and phiifffft the end of the log is sealed... Their sprayer is about a decade or so old and I doubt it's ever been cleaned, it sits in the shed and winter or summer they pump it up, Phiiffffftt a series of the ends of logs and then leave it.. You just gotta love a tool that works that flawlessly without clogging or needing any maintinace..
No, you don't HAVE to flip it every pass, and yes it depends on the sawyer. I have sawed thousands of bf on my band mill and I can see it from where I type. But if he gets a rookie sawyer flipping it will SAVE him a lot of lumber.And he's not going to lose 1/4" of thickness per board. He may lose 1/4" at the edge of some boards and that will be in the sapwood. Remember, if he finds a bandsaw operator the weight of the log lying on the mill is working in favor of the sawyer and the dogs do not have to be that strong because the vertical support on the exit side of the blade will suffice to hold the cant in place and the dog on the entry side of the blade barely enters the cant.Logs only need to be sealed if they are going to lay on the ground for ####long time and I can assure you that latex paint, one coat, will seal the ends of the sawn lumber.Once the log is at the mill I doubt that the mill operator would bother to seal a log that he's planning to saw because mills usually don't want logs laying around because they only get paid when they saw the lumber.John
On flipping...
My sawyer, an old codger, reads the log and then decides what to do. Sometimes we flip, sometimes we leave it. I can't think of a single log that we've flipped after every cut...that seems like a waste of time. Simply look at all the faces before you cut, and pick the best clear board...not too difficult even for a green sawyer. I would not flip just for the flipping. Do it for a reason.
On sealing...
The first batch of logs we cut, 37 red oaks, I decided it would be a great idea to seal the ends. I bought a $1 can of exterior paint from sears, the kind that is the wrong color for full price if you know what I mean. I painted the ends twice, and was happy with the results, minimal splitting of the ends. However, the old codger sawyer complained that he could not "read" the end of the log and requested that I not do such a silly thing again. Since then, we've sawed all un-sealed logs and I don't really think it helped much. Yeah, some logs will split more (poplar, white oak) than others (red oak, maple) but in the end you just cut off the ends and get on with your life. You really only lose a couple of inches, and it's just not worth the time.
yieldmap
I can agree with you regarding sealing the ends of logs.. I did it to many of my timbers, relatively quickly after they were felled but still it was several days if not over a week from the time some logs were felled and they were finally gathered up and hauled to the sawmill.. I went ahead and painted all of the ends but checking and the starts of splits had already started..
I got a little more anal and sat with my paint and waited at least 10 whole minutes from when the tree hit the ground.. The runoff sap washed most of the paint away.. I came back a week later and reapplied. about the same amount of splits and checks..
Once I bought some of that wax stuff they sell for that purpose I never lost much of a timber..
Now the real reason that's important, is the total length my sawmill can saw a timber is 19' 4" I would lose almost 4 to six inches due to checks and splits with paint and virtually none with the wax sealant..
To see the real differance the timbers used for my west wing were full length while the timbers used for the trimed six inches. Helecopter pilots flying closly overhead might notice the west wing is 5 inches higher the the peak of the main house..
Well it is not down, so one cannot see much. Like how much sapwood and what condition the wood is in. Apart from the very real chance of a lot of damage from lightning-some of which is not easily seen until later-like heart shakes. At 20 inches it is SMALL.One should not be building pies in the sky- maybe a dog kennel or two.
I would be unexcited .
Philip Marcou
Edited 7/7/2006 1:47 am by philip
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