Replies

1. 
   gary_vaiskauckas | Jan 20, 2022 12:25pm | #1

   SawStop technical support is very knowledgeable. If it were me I'd call to explain the three incidents and ask them to explain how the SawStop capacitive coupling technology behaves when the sensor falls below the theshold (see wikipedia for expanation) perhaps there is a bad sensor or internal capacitive ground fault? What steps does SawStop recommend that you take to prevent triggerring brake deployments during debug since repeated brake activation is expensive and can't be good for the machine?

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop

   I'd ask if the safety bypass feature would prevent cartridge / blade activation during debug. Note: the safety bypass feature needs to be activated each time the motor is spinning the blade. This is not a viable long term work around.

   If I were to hazard a guess assuming the damage was not caused by the crowbar the root cause of the fault is either:

   1. a capacitive sensor or ground fault in the capacitive circuit - or -

   2. a bad circuit board on the SawStop.

   This may be the case where replacing parts (based upon SawStop troubleshooting procedure) might be cheaper than continued brake activations.

   Also you said that you had to use a crowbar to remove the parts.

   1. What triggered the initial brake activation? A real flesh contact with spinning blade - even on spin down contacting the side of the blade until completely stopped will trigger an activation - or - was it a phantom brake activation? If phantom activation it would point to a latent problem not caused by first activation of the blade or crowbar removal.

   2. Did you have to use a crowbar to remove all 3 cartridges / blades?

   Best of luck! These types of problems can be very frustrating.

1. 
   jpg13 | Jan 20, 2022 01:01pm | #2

   I did explain each activation in detail to Sawstop and they just said that if I'd mail the cartridges they could read the electrical signature and tell me what triggered it, i.e. conductive contact or ?
   Sawstop mentioned I could try running it in non-safety mode, but it would require a new cartridge and blade. If it triggered again I would be down more parts and it would tell me nothing. I mentioned the difficulty removing spent parts and the response was they sometimes can be difficult to remove. In my mind that should have bumped my request up several notches.
   I appreciate the link you sent and will check it out. Meanwhile I'm researching 1.75 to 3 hp saws for backup as I anticipate a resolution of my saw's problem to take a while.

1. 
   gary_vaiskauckas | Jan 20, 2022 02:08pm | #4

   Due to insurance reasons many businesses and schools had to sell their cabinet saws and purchased SawStops. If you look for used you might be able to find a good deal on a high quality cabinet saw (without SawStop "safety features"). At least that was prior to the recent Supply Channel problems. I'm not sure about the used market right now.

   I am a hobbist so if my SawStop was out of commission for an extended period of time I'd be able to manage with the combination of:

   1. Track Saw
   2. Band Saw
   3. Hand tools
   4. Miter Saw
   5. Router for dados and rabbets

2. 
   gary_vaiskauckas | Jan 20, 2022 01:47pm | #3

   jpg,

   I am a Computer Engineer by degree, not machinist. The SawStop is a hybrid machine / computer. When diagnosing difficult computer problems we tried to follow this procedure:

   1. Determine root cause. Until this is found everyone is just guessing.

   2. Once root cause is determined then take corrective actions.

   The SawStop front panel lights have a code:

   Here is a SawStop video on how to capture Extended Diagnostic Error Codes.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBMnV9EqpkY

   When you send back the cartridge brakes to SawStop

   1. number and date each one when the activation occurred.

   2. add a description for each numbered brake of the sequence of events leading up to the activation. Also any information that you can provide of how much the SawStop was used between activations might be helpful. Was there a lot of use or did it trigger almost immediately?

   SawStop technical support requested that you return the brakes to help determine root cause: Was it A. Contact with flesh or B. Something else.

   Did the SawStop technical support offer any explanation of next steps after the cartridges are analyzed?

3. 
   alanmcginnis | Jan 21, 2022 11:54am | #5

   this sucks, and full sympathy to our colleague and hope ss is able to get you back up and running quick. but im surprised we dont hear about this sort of problem more with ss - its electronics are no different than any other cpu based device in our homes/shops, and mine are falling-over dead all the time. that said, i do think ss may be slipping in their quality control - my new ics 5hp saw arrived with a clearly faulty motor (which to their credit they sent me a replacement motor overnight, but install was no picnic), also as have stated here previously, imo their sliding table accessory is a joke.

4. 
   bluemo | Jan 21, 2022 12:48pm | #6

   "jpg13" - I hope you get this problem resolved soon. When that happens, I and probably other SawStop owners would like to hear what the solution is -- and what caused the problem in the first place. Thanks.

5. 
   elmaduro | Jan 22, 2022 12:39am | #7

   Try setting up a video recording of your SS in operation. If you can get a clip of the saw malfunctioning I bet they’ll be much more responsive.

6. 
   jpg13 | Feb 14, 2022 10:20am | #8

   I appreciate all of the comments and suggestions I have received. The 3 cartridges I submitted for analysis were tested and the results were submitted to me by email. The cause: a fault with the cable which connects the arbor 5 volt power circuit and the brake assembly to the circuitry within the power / on - off box. The fix: buy and install a new cable. The price: $53 plus tax and shipping.
   I got this response a few days after submitting photos of the cable showing a bad pinch where it came out of the on - off switch box and the hole in the box and inquiring if the tech thought this might be the source of my problem. The hole was only one-half of a circle and too small for the cable. Ironically there was a larger hole next to it with a rubber plug installed which would have been a better fit for the cable. I'm awaiting the new cable and the joy of at a day spent installing it and reassembling the saw which is in pieces on my bench. The final step will be putting the saw table back on which will require a helper, then I have to check alignment and adjust, if necessary.
   I'm happy to know I'll be able to fix my saw, but I was disappointed that Sawstop offered no assistance with the cost of the cable or replacement of the wasted cartridges. The saw is no longer under warranty, but my problem appears to have developed as a result of a wiring issue from the manufacturer, not from something that was caused by me. I have read of others experiencing cable pinch issues so I would suggest that if you own a Sawstop, carefully inspect the aforementioned cable - box intersection before you have problems.

7. 
   DRBWWing | Feb 14, 2022 10:27am | #9

   Yes, that is a little discouraging. But on their side, they never know who's monkeyed around with something.

   Good luck on getting the table re-aligned. When I replaced the arbor bearings on my old Jet, I gave up trying to align the ZCI's and used a shim.

8. 
   cl810 | Feb 14, 2022 01:56pm | #10

   jpg13, what year was your saw made? I'm curious if the pinched cable issue is something that has always been there or was remedied shortly after it became an issue.

1. 
   jpg13 | Feb 14, 2022 02:24pm | #11

   Made in 2014
   I belong to a 900 member guild which recently bought a. SAWSTOP Industrial cabinet saw. It was experience 3 brake events, but only 1 could be explained. As a consequence we are monitoring it closely.
   It's like anything. The more features you add, the more potential problems you invite to the party

9. 
   revbob | Feb 19, 2022 11:18am | #12

   Thanks for the follow-up post. Much appreciated.

10. 
    alphonse53 | Feb 19, 2022 07:33pm | #13

    jpg13:
    I had a pinched cable issue myself a couple years back that happened while I was moving the saw. Mine just simply would not allow it to start. I used a patch cable with a serial port to substitute SS's replacement, making sure to get the wiring right. No more problems, except the main power PCB went out, which I found using the error codes referred to in the other comment. I'm not sure how SS insulates the blade and arbor from the rest of the saw, unless they use ceramic balls with plastic carriers inside the bearings. If the problem persists, you might want to check for a conductivity fault, especially if water could have gotten involved.

1. 
   jpg13 | Feb 22, 2022 05:03am | #14

   Hi Alphonse53. Thanks for the info. Mine has never had moisture issues. I bought a new cable and that seems to have fixed the issue, at least for now. Reassembly of the saw took awhile, but I didn't have any parts left over which is a good sign.
   Thanks to all for your comments. If I have more problems, I'll post them. One last comment: while I was able to struggle and disassemble the saw single handed, I highly recommend having a helper, especially for the cast iron top.

1. 
   gary_vaiskauckas | Feb 22, 2022 11:03am | #15

   jpg, Great to hear your table saw is fixed. That must have been a very frustrating experience.

   Thank you for the follow up posts with the root cause and resolution of the problem for the FineWoodworking community. I went out to check my saw for the "cable pinch" problem and was glad to see I did not have it.

   Cheers,

   Gary

11. 
    kingxxv | Oct 04, 2023 04:13pm | #16

    Thank you for this post! I am having a similar problem. 3 false brake triggers 3 new blades in less than a month. Sent the brake in last week waiting to hear back from SawStop. It is also difficult for me to remove the blade and cartridge after activation I have to pry it out as well. In the first instance, the brake falsely activated after I simply turned the saw on and then off quickly. The last two happened when ripping 2in yellow pine from Home Depot. The saw struggles with the cut and then turns off. I turn the saw back on and feed the wood through extremely slow and it still struggles, shuts off again. Then the brake triggers after I do this again. The wood is dry. Thought it was maybe the power outlet so paid an electrician $700 to install a new wire and amp to the panel and it happened again. Was also contemplating getting another saw but I already invested so much into this saw and all the accessories. I hope SawStop is able to give me a solution.

1. 
   athomeinthewoods | Oct 14, 2023 05:00pm | #18

   How old is the blade?

12. 
    athomeinthewoods | Oct 14, 2023 04:32pm | #17

    You said it's hard to remove/replace the brake and blade. Are you resetting the retraction of the arbor block? I missed that in the manual when I first bought the saw.

    From the website:
    Reset the Retraction of the Arbor Block: during normal use, the front of the arbor block is held in place by a spring-loaded support mechanism called the retraction bracket. When the brake is activated, the angular momentum of the spinning blade is transferred to the arbor block, causing it to drop out of the retraction bracket. To reset the arbor block into the retraction bracket, turn the elevation hand wheel counter-clockwise until the lower elevation limit stop is reached. The arbor block will automatically engage the support mechanism. Now turn the elevation hand wheel clockwise to raise the arbor block and blade. You can also reset the arbor block manually by pulling the arbor bolt sharply upward until you feel the arbor block engage the retraction bracket.

13. 
    Cayman | Oct 14, 2023 05:08pm | #19

    My 10 year old Sawstop triggered for no reason. My hand was no where near the blade and there was nothing in the material. I shipped the cartridge to Sawstop. They read the data and said it must have contacted flesh, it was not faulty. It was.

    They sent me a new brake but it ruined my expensive flat top ground blade and cost me a few weeks. Not happy.

1. 
   bennet_fisher | Oct 14, 2023 08:43pm | #21

   I had a similar issue with one of my cartridges triggering for no reason.
   I needed to change from the single blade cartridge to the dado cartridge.
   I turned the saw off, removed the 10" blade, an pulled the red cartridge key out. As soon as I grabbed the side of the cartridge, the cartridge trigged and my thumb got slammed into the riving knife holder.
   I called Sawstop the following business day and they asked me to send in the cartridge. I then asked if they could expedite a replacement for me (given that it had no reason to trigger), so I could continue working on my project. They recommended that I buy a new cartridge which was mildly infuriating....
   I needed to finish my project, so I ended up buying another cartridge while they did their analysis on the one I sent in.
   Sawstop ended up confirming that the cartridge was faulty and sent me a replacement.
   Thankfully, I have not had any incidents since.

14. 
    athomeinthewoods | Oct 14, 2023 05:51pm | #20

    Sawstops are very sensitive to transients on the line - they will trigger if the voltage drops too low, even for a very short time. Even the contactor in the switch will chatter if I try to run the saw from my off-grid inverter. I can only run the saw off my generator. That said, I'm pretty sure the cartridge will read voltage error or something, not flesh hit, in these cases.

1. 
   PhilR | Oct 17, 2023 06:40pm | #22

   Dear @HomeInTheWoods - I have some questions about running things on an inverter - could you contact me at [My Userid] at fluiddynamics.com for off - site discussion?

15. 
    CharlieFurnituremaker | Oct 18, 2023 06:42pm | #23

    Use a push stick, feather boards, etc. and quit subordinating your safety at the saw to somebody else.

    Completely lulled into a false sense of security comes to mind.

1. 
   athomeinthewoods | Oct 18, 2023 08:53pm | #25

   While I'm not a fan of Sawstop's strategy of trying to mandate the technology and their aggressive patent warfare, the fact is that the Sawstop is a superior saw, even without the flesh detection technology.

   And I've known people to get injured in spite of using push sticks and such.

16. 
    _mj_ | Oct 18, 2023 08:03pm | #24

    Here we go.....

17. 
    Cayman | Oct 18, 2023 09:09pm | #26

    As noted above I’ve been a SawStop owner for a decade. I’m a hobbyist and sometimes don't get to my shop for a month or more at a time.

    Because of that I’m not thinking of the product’s safety features in the moment, I’m thinking about the safety rules I learned in high school shop class in the 60’s. Basic stuff, very basic, but as real today as then.

    To me the SS safety feature is just an add-on, but a very important one.

    I do wish they would reimburse me for the very expensive blade the mis-fire destroyed though. That would be nice.

18. 
    Bdwyer492 | Oct 19, 2023 01:34pm | #27

    Wow. This has really helped me decide not to buy one.

    So a roundabout thanks!