I’ve gotten some additional information from SawStop regarding the design of the smaller saw.
Like others I was able to get some small information until I requested my question be forwarded to Mr. Gass. He gave the information I was looking for.
It appears they have adapted the brake/riving knife to work with standard twin rod, motor hanging from back trunnion contractor design.
This is disappointing as I don’t believe this design can be made to be reliably stable. After a number of bevel cuts the carriage twists out of alignment requiring a tedious adjustment procedure. This has been my experience with contractor saws that are “dialed in” for furnituremaking. If you aren’t as particular about keeping your tool within close tolerances then this issue probably won’t matter.
I’ll keep my order in until I see a line drawing but it sounds like its just a standard contractor carriage. (exception being how the blade elevation mechanism is changed) Really a shame, since it seems they went to great lengths on the cab saw to eliminate some shortcomings of that design.
Just have to wait and see.
Replies
Adastra, a semi-related question here. Supposedly, the hybrid saws (as a group) have improved on the contractor design to provide for improved stability and, therefore, accuracy. Do you know what changes they made? Any chance that's being done with the SawStop contractor design?
PS: Not referring to the Craftsman hybrid, which has a completely different design, IIRC.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm afraid thats a "wait and see". As stated in my post regarding information from Sawstop, it sounds like its a standard contractor design with a different blade elevation system to allow for the brake and riving knife.They did assure me that they are paying attention to carriage stability regarding the twisting that I think is the big shortcoming of contractor saw design. Eliminate that and its a great tool. Leave it and the brake/knife aren't enough. Tool performance does trump that for me.If I hear anything I'll pass it along. But don't expect to know until they have a production unit ready to ship.
In general the hybred saws are no different than contractors saws in design. The trunions and lifting / tilting mechanisms are designed and mounted the same. The only real differences are that the trunions are heavier to help prevent the flexing common with contractors saws and the motor usually hangs under the table instead of stiching out the back. I think that the only real advantages are that they usually have better fences, and dust collection.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Am I correct in thinking that having the motor hang underneath helps lessen the flexing?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
We could use an engineer about now.Intuitively it seems the difference is that with the motor behind gravity is pulling the weight of the motor down in the vertical plane against the tilt so its up to the trunnion joining method to counteract this. In the horizontal plane the motor would want to swivel away from the trunnion. Imagine the motor on a pivot to see what I mean.Gravity works the same with motor underneath but now there would be an opposite force on the rear trunnion in the horizontal plane. The rear trunnion is still being pulled against tilt direction in the vertical so seems that the carriage twist would still occur. I've had one 22124 user report that the twist is still present on the new Sears when set to 45 degrees.Add to the this preloading from motor weight of the contractor design the forces that occur when actually in use and you get the instability.If someone would design a motor support that carries the weight on the front and back trunnions I think this problem would be eliminated and you would have a great furnituremaking tool. The shorter belt of the motor underneath is a reported advantage in power transmission and vibration.Someone on one of the boards said the whole idea with the hanging motor was to make it easy to remove for transport to a job site. I think the smaller portable saws have replaced contractor saws for this use.General is the only company I know of that redesigned the carriage assembly in their hybrid. I was hoping Sawstop would have had to redesign to use their brake/knife but they apparently didn't. However they aren't in production so they might find a way to eliminate the problem.If they don't I'll just buy another option until I can budget their cab saw.
We could use an engineer about now...
I have a degree in electronics.. Vacuum tubes then! LOL
Motor just HANGS THERE.. Drives all the stuff..
Sort of like that so called 'WARPED' table top that is about 0.005 off of level.. 0.005 off level on a stick about 2 foot long is about a 'NATS HAIR'...
So BE IT!
and you would have a great furnituremaking tool.. And how ya get that woodworker trained?
I have used Cabinet saws.. (I have to admit no GOOD Europe saws).. 'Tuned up a bit'.. Nothing fancy.. Just normal stuff.. AND a good blade.. Ya can make anything!
EDIT:
HOWEVER... My saw is on casters and I push it out of the way when doin' other things.. I have some RED painted spots on my shop floor I move it to when putting it back wher I CUT!.. I make sure it is level THERE,, Hardly ever have to adjust but I check anyways'..
Edited 5/29/2005 3:03 pm ET by Will George
Edited 5/29/2005 3:06 pm ET by Will George
Edited 5/29/2005 3:21 pm ET by Will George
There's an old saying around here that goes, "All buffalo walk in single file because the one I saw did."Point is that my experience with contractor saws is based on my saw. Haven't had extended use of anything but my Grizzly. At work I've used cab saws and Euro-sliders and they're better. Also had an Inca and it was much better but so different with its tilting top that I don't think its a fair comparison.In my last shop we had three grades of work. Carpenter cuts, cabinet cuts, and furniture cuts; depending on how clean and accurate you needed to be.Anyhow if you tune the Grizzly and leave it at 90, its fine. Cuts just like I want and with a good blade I get glue joints. The problem happens when I need a bevel. Carriage twists and blade burns, and often (it feels like its often) the carriage is now out of adjustment when I return to square. So I have to re-align the trunnions which is a pain. (getting the rods complanar) And lost time which is a productivity killer.So I want my upgrade to eliminate the carriage/trunnion issue; whichever tool I choose. There are lots of things that don't matter or need to be within .005 for woodworking. People that align their blades within .001 are kidding themselves. But if the carriage twists a sixteenth out of adjustment and suddenly the back teeth are catching the workpiece, that is a problem to me. If I was only wanting a carpenter cut it wouldn't matter."And how ya get that woodworker trained?" I don't follow you, explain?But you are right, the tool doesn't make the furniture. You can make great stuff with a Skil saw if you have the time. I just prefer tools that I don't have to think about.
"...the carriage is now out of adjustment when I return to square. So I have to re-align the trunnions which is a pain." oooooOOOOHhhhh, that's bad, bad bad! Since I compulsively collect data on Grizzly tools :-) would you mind posting what model it is and about when you bought it?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
G1059; 02-1994I bought it when I thought this was just going to be a hobby. I've learned a lot about tool purchases since, even those for my automotive hobby. Some cheapies are OK, others just frustrate the heck out of you. Trick is knowing which is which.I don't think my saw reflects Grizzly quality in general. I used a 1023 at my last job and can't say it was inferior to our Unisaw. Also the 1059 was a budget saw even back then, they had a larger contractor at the time.
"I don't think my saw reflects Grizzly quality in general." I seriously doubt that it does, especially when compared to today's products. And the fact that it was apparently their low-end contractors saw pretty much seals it, wouldn'tcha think? The don't even make a cheapie any more. I doubt if it reflects contractors saws' quality in general either :-)
I've seen their lowest end contractors saw in person, first around 1997 I think. Wasn't even tempted to buy it. The current saws -- nice stuff.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/30/2005 6:06 pm ET by forestgirl
"General is the only company I know of that redesigned the carriage assembly in their hybrid." What about Sears. Hmmmmmm, wait -- maybe their main design difference was the trunnion connection (where the blade-to-miter-slot adjustment is like that of a cabinet saw, not a contractor saw). Need some diagrams here! Maybe later I'll take some time and download owner's manuals.
Hubby is an engineer (trained mechanical, career environmental). Maybe he can help!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I've seen a minor amount of twist on my 22114 on 45° bevels. It's minor enough that a small adjustment of the splitter ought to make it a non-issue. Strikes me that hanging the motor off the front trunnion instead of the back would have prevented the problem in the first place.
I never thought of that. But I bet you are right. I wonder why that hasn't been done?
Honestly I've not studied one close enough to say for sure. But I'll go out on a limb and say it could be worse depending on how it is actually attatched to the carrage. The flexing occurs most when beveling the blade. If the motor is at the end of a long pendulum hanging under the arbor, then as the carrage is tilted the motor starts bending whatever it is mounted to. Like holding a sack of flour in you hand with you arm extended in front of you. However before people get all bent out of shape I'll say that the flex inherent in contractor style saws and Hybreds has little or no effect in its ability to cut. The most importaint issues are trueness of the arbor, horse power, and vibration.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I'll just add one thing and let it go. I know this is just a web forum, not a court of law but I want to go on record as saying I know contractor saws work fine. Its just a motor and spinning blade, they cut wood. Its what I currently use and I get work done.The issue for me deals with what happens when the carriage twists and affects the cut and the extra maintenance required to re-tune. There might be some contractor saws that hold tune great, I just don't happen to own one.Actually I've seen an old Craftsman contractor that used a one-piece casting for the carriage, no connecting rods. It still might twist due to the pendulum effect but at least you would never have to re-align the front and back trunnions. Don't know why they ditched that design. It was my Dad's saw, he must have bought it in the late seventies.
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