Thought I would remind all that Sawstop will be making a contractor saw due out later this year. Its kind of been lost in the shuffle.
I don’t have any affiliation with Sawstop but I had just forgotten this and remembered yesterday. Went to Sawstop and reserved one.
I had pretty much eliminated contractor saws for their inherent weakness in stability when stressed and twisting of the carriage on bevel cuts. Power isn’t as big an issue with the work I do.
What I hadn’t considered is that with the Sawstop brake to function they have to use a very different trunnion and carriage design. The old twin rod/hanging motor design won’t work with their brake. It sounds like its a lot closer to a hybrid than a contractor.
The reservation is non-binding so I’ll be able to check the spec’s more closely but I think it might be a missing link for a lot of woodworkers.
Blade brake
Riving knife
Dust shroud
Left tilt
Rigid trunnion
Under $1000
I was a big fan of the Inca so I don’t think that a tool for furnituremaking necessarily needs to be a behemoth to get the job done.
They are sending me some more details and I will post any additional information if desired. Or you could just contact them yourself.
Best Regards.
Replies
For the money I'd look at a cabinet saw.
Mike
I think Mike may have been trolling, but...Yes, I know about cabinet saws. The majority of my shop experience has been on those and they are good tools. In my own shop I still have the contractor I started out with when I thought it was just going to be a hobby. And it ALMOST does what I need it to do.I also have owned an Inca and know that a tool doesn't have to weigh 500 lbs. to perform well for furnituremaking. But if you are doing cabinets then a cab saw is what you need, especially with power feeders. The Inca's tilting top was what caused me to sell it. I was doing cabinet work at the time and couldn't build it into my shop table because of that. I've since decided to not do any more cabinet work and strictly do furniture. And I know you can build furniture with a cab saw, thats also a given.But there is only one cab saw with a blade brake and its $2500. If budget wasn't an issue, that is the tool I would buy. But right now it is an issue so the contractor looks good. I know for the same money I could get a used cab saw, but there are features that I want that don't come with a used cab saw. Blade brake and riving knife are two big ones for me. If the carriage is stable then its doing everything I need it to do with the other things I want. If the carriage isn't stable then I will be back looking for a used cab saw. I think I can tell by looking whether the carriage will flex. These are pretty basic machines, really.This could quickly spin into the whole Sawstop (blade brake = seat belt analogy) debate but thats pretty much it. I don't need seat belt to drive but the day an accident happens, its good to have. But I may never need my seat belts even though I wear them, so who knows?I've been woodworking professionally for only ten years, I've never had a shop accident that required medical attention. Just normal nicks and cuts. I could go my whole career and never trip the brake; I'll be happy if I do. But if I ever need it and its not there, well the results are a lot different.Eventually this just distills down to opinion and what the individual considers to be important in their own shop.Best regards.
Excellent response, adastra!
The fact that they're installing riving knives rather than the usual crappy splitter is a major plus in my book. Between that and the change in the carriage design, I am looking foward to hearing reports on this saw when it comes out! Any idea what size motor they'll put on it?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/19/2005 7:29 pm ET by forestgirl
No idea about motor. They list 1 1/2" HP on the site and thats what I would expect.Hopefully its a standard frame, I would prefer 2-3 but I can live with 1 1/2.If I hear anything interesting I'll post, but I just brought it up as a reminder that this should be out by Fall. I had totally forgotten and got excited because I think it will meet my particular needs to a "T".The cab saw is better no doubt but I'll have to wait for that. I would actually prefer a slider but the brake trumps that for me. I don't think there is one perfect tool for all woodworkers, we all have different habits and product.
Another thing to consider with the sawstop saw is that the way it works is that it shoots a charge "brake" into the blade instantly. The charge is similar to a shotgun shell, and when the brake hits the saw, the blade is history. And the recharge kit is in the neighborhood of $50. This may be fine in a cab shop employing minimum wage employees and trying to save on liability ins. or in a school, but I wouldn't have one. Not that I value my blades more than my fingers, but in the event the brake gets engaged I'd hate to lose a forrest blade AND have to install a recharge kit. Still have all 10 fingers after 30 years. The theory is "if it hurts when you do that, Don't Do That" That's just my opinion, I Could be wrong! Len
"Not that I value my blades more than my fingers"
"I'd hate to lose a forrest blade AND have to install a recharge kit"Actually, it looks like you value your fingers more than a blade but less than a blade plus the recharge kit. :-)Remember, you can't buy insurance after the accident.Your tolerance for risk is clearly different than others. That's what makes humanity interesting...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Working in any shop with fast moveing sharp steel involves a certain risk factor that needs to be taken into consideration. There is such thing as a healthy fear,or respect for the machines through experience and safe work habits. Otherwise EVERY tool should have an explosive safety device or we should invent some sort of a suit of armor, don't forget about kickback. Better yet, just forget about being a woodworker and go sell real estate. That is perfectly safe and pays better. Len
I don't know about that. Have you have had an eyelash in your eye during a photo shoot for your lawn signs? :-) (don't know if it's big where you are, but all the realestate agents have their pictures on the signs they put in front of houses - really odd. Who cares what the selling agent looks like).More Seriously, I agree life is risk. Some have little or no risk tolerance, others have quite high tolerance. It seems that tolerance goes down with age.ALso, humans are generally bad at understanding probability and risk/reward (look at the lottery ticket sales as demonstration of that point).The statistics for 2001 in the US - 56000 stationary saw injuries treated in ERs (about 75% tablesaws). Don't know what that translates to in terms of probabilities. http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=3&q=http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf&e=10053
(interesting reading btw)A better way would be to understand the probability would be to get the hours of use and count accidents by hours. Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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I just had to rant, our next guild meeting is at the sawstop factory in Wilsonville Ore. If anybody wants to go there will definitely be room for ONE more person. Limited parking though. That's on June 15th at 6:30.Guild of Ore. WW'ers
So now with my luck, for being a smart a**, I'll head back to the shop and probably cut a few fingers off. Doncha just hate it when that happens? But, on the bright side, I just quit smoking a few weeks ago, so that would take my mind of the cigs. I really needed the tar in those cigs to fill all the potholes in my careless, blade loveing mind! You just can't win!!I Quit buying lotto tickets too so I have more money for gas. Len
Oregon is a stretch for me. (Massachusetts).I offered to be an east coast Demonstration site for SS (my fee is one cabinet saw) but they didn't go for it :-)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Hi Len. Your track record pretty much shows you don't need a Saw Stop. Your 30 years is probably equal to 200 or 300 for many of the rest of us, LOL! so it's quite understandable that you wouldn't want the hassle.
For those of us who don't have that track record, though, it's not unreasonable to want that extra insurance. There's no way for us to gaze into the future and know what terrible accident might be down the road. I'm incredibly careful when running my saw, and wouldn't change that habit even with a Saw Stop. But l'd have just that much more protection against some slip-up that could cost me a digit or two.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey, Girl. Seems like all we do is e-mail. Anybody ever do any work around here? ;-)Have to ask. I can suss out Blade Brake, but what is a "riving tool"? Is it reyeving or riving (like river)?
A riving knife is a splitter-type device, heretofore found only on European machines it seems, but now available on the Saw Stop. It raises and lowers with the blade, and arcs over the back part of the blade. See the second row of pictures on this page. Head an shoulders above our stupid splitters.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Gotcha. Now I know what you're talking about.Isn't Saw Stop the saw that some guy invented that senses human tissue and stops immediately? I seem to remember a demonstration with a hot dog. Great idea. Will probably put an end to woodworkers named Lefty.
That's the one. visit http://www.sawstop.com...
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Hey FG. I always hear everyone saying that riving knifes "work better" than splitters. Really they "work" exactly the same in a cut. They both help keep the kerf open and the stock against the fence. No difference at all. The only difference is that a riving knife dosen't have to be removed to make non-through cuts, like dados. Of course it looks like the riving knife would not be compatible with 8" dado blades anyway, so you would STILL have to remove it. But a splitter isn't necessary for those cuts, so there's no difference. In fact by definition riving knives do not have anti kickback paws, that makes them MORE dangerous. I think that the only bad thing about American splitters is that they are to hard to remove, install and allign, so people take them off and never reinstall them. On my Unisaw I have the quick disconnect splitter that is very easy to remove. And Merlin makes what looks like a well designed aftermarket splitter.
Its funny, I am really thinking out loud here as I've never given this much thought . But really, considering what I just said..... Isn't the American style splitter safer?
I'd love to hear from yall on this one.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
It may be safer, but if it's not in use, then it defeats the purpose.Somewhere above I put a link to table saw injury statistics. Read down through it. Near the bottom is statistics on how many of the table saws were "modified" by the user (guards removed)...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Wow, I can't believe how much action the Sawstop threads get. I'm going to respond to Len because his is the one argument that I just don't get.Losing a blade and paying for a cartridge is a problem? Remember the only time that happens is when the saw has just saved your a**, or rather, hands. This is the one argument against Sawstop that just drives me nuts.Do people want it to save you from mutilation and then give you a kiss on the forehead?Len, I'm not coming at you and trying to say you don't know woodworking. I sense you have been in the trade a long time without an accident and hopefully will end your career without one. But I've been doing it for ten and seen enough blood in shops that I know accidents happen, and they happen to good woodworkers too. One of the amputations I've witnessed happened to a coworker with thirty-plus years experience, he had some issues at home and was distracted and lost his thumb. The whole shop looked up to this guy for his skill and knowledge.Sawstop apparently makes good tools from the cab saw reports so its not like buying a second-rate tool with a safety net. The brake is important to me and I hope I never do trip it because it will save me the cost of a blade and cartridge. If I ever trip it I'll gladly pay for a new blade and brake cartridge and give all ten of my fingers kisses. Hope this post doesn't come off as too "hot" but a Forrest and a cartridge will be about $175. Versus mutilation? I don't get it. To all the muckrakers yes I know there can be a false trigger of the brake the blade contacts metal. I'll do my best to avoid that and if there is a nail hidden in a plank well that is the risk I am willing to take.This whole attitude of "if you're not willing to suffer an amputation then you don't have the nerve to do woodworking" is just nonsense. Its just a matter of taking precautions available to try to avoid a serious injury. Doesn't guarantee I won't ever be injured, if it happens it happens. I'll leave that up to God and I will do what I can to avoid it.
The alignment problems with our lightweight American splitters really causes problems, IMHO. They are so easy to knock out of alignment (not to mention being difficult to get aligned in the first place -- they often will not be/stay at 90* to the table, so you're fine with 1" stock or thinner, but the darned thing hangs up with thicker stock). As mentioned above, the fact that so many WWers remove them permanently renders them useless.
I have the Merlin splitter on my old Jet saw. I really, really like it! Had to modify the set-up some to fit it on because the saw's so old, and I can't raise the blade all the way to the top, but small inconveniences compared to the luxury of having a pop-out splitter.
The riving knife's movement with the blade and it's configuration close and over the blade IMHO makes it an excellent safety item. There are some WWers who feel that anti-kickback pawls cause more problems than the solve, because the can interfere with thin ripping operations. I haven't formed an opinion on that one. The few times I've had kickback the pawls weren't involved.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I haven't formed an opinion on that one..
I took mine apart and got a hardened bolt and a 'nylon insert' nut...
SO.. when I have to.. I can take it off.. However, I usually use it.. But I hate fussin with that spring!
The argument that a splitter works the same as a riving knife is reasonable only if you install a different splitter every time you change the height of your blade. A riving knife remains with a gap of about 1/8" all along the back of the blade, so there is not much opportunity for the work to catch before the knife is able to prevent it. A splitter usually has a much larger gap, so there is a much greater window before it can take effect. I am not convinced that anti kickback pawls do anything much, but maybe so. Anyway, it says the sawstop contractor's saw does come with them on blade guard.I really don't understand why some people are so vehemently against this saw. From what I've seen, the cabinet version looks to be more solid than any other American type saw. Even without the sawstop feature it would be a very nice saw. And apparently there are now six people who have fingers they wouldn't have without it. That's not a lot of people, but I'll bet they think it's significant.
Edited 5/21/2005 12:36 am ET by AlanS
I think some are not fond of Sawstop's business tactics. I can't say the chapter where they tried to make their brake mandatory through safety regulations gives me warm fuzzies.But I don't know enough of the history to be an authority on their company. I'm just glad they didn't add their brake to the cheapest crap table saw they could rush to market. It happens to come on a good tool. As far as riving knife vs. American splitters, I prefer a riving knife having used both. And its because of the proximity to blade. There have been times with my American splitter that falloff has wedged during a cut due to the gap. Its nuisance, and a problem if your stock is long enough that you can't reach the power switch.My original post was just to remind forum readers that the blade brake will be available on a decent table saw for under $1000. At least that is the bet I'm making. Its a new design and hopefully they can pull it off.
Boy, am I long-winded.You are right, the attempt to make it mandatory is likely what upsets people. That just seemed pretty absurd before it was available, but I guess such things have happened before, like the military mandating that all programming must be in Ada, and having that go into effect before there were any certified Ada compilers.That Sawstop action did seem to be taken in frustration, in order to get attention when the inventor failed to get any of the saw manufacturers to license his technology. My guess is that manufacturers didn't want his saw to be available because they were afraid of being forbidden to produce their designs if it were, and they were his intended audience. I think it was a bad move: understandable, but bad. Woodworking equipment is dangerous, but it's also pretty expensive to get started, and you are not likely to injure someone other than yourself. Now that it's available, if it works as well as it appears, the market will encourage other makers to license the technology, and scale will bring down the price. If he had been successful in getting it mandated, my guess is that the inability to fill any orders soon would have backfired on him and killed it before it got going. He probably wanted it about as much as Mark Twain wanted what he asked for here:"TO THE HONORABLE THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED:Whereas, The Constitution guarantees equal rights to all, backed by the Declaration of Independence; andWhereas, Under our laws, the right of property in real estate is perpetual; andWhereas, Under our laws, the right of property in the literary result of a citizen's intellectual labor is restricted to forty-two years; andWhereas, Forty-two years seems an exceedingly just and righteous term, and a sufficiently long one for the retention of property;
Therefore, Your petitioner, having the good of his country solely at heart, humbly prays that "equal rights" and fair and equal treatment may be meted out to all citizens, by the restriction of rights in all property, real estate included, to the beneficent term of forty-two years. Then shall all men bless your honorable body and be happy. And for this will your petitioner ever pray. MARK TWAIN. "Building a solid saw that has a riving knife is probably more of a safety measure than is the sawstop technology, and the inventor seems pretty smart. He knows that it's the saw statistics, not really the sawstop feature, that people will see.In any case, I want one of those saws, probably the contractor version. I wear a seatbelt too, even though I don't expect to crash.
Edited 5/21/2005 11:14 am ET by AlanS
Ada compilers.. DANG!! I remember that now that ya mention it! LOL...
tried to make their brake mandatory through safety regulations..
Good old US of A marketing.. They tried but lost.. Nothing wrong with that...
But then again I have been in Marketing...
Alan,
Ahh Hah. That makes sense. I didn't think about that. Mark one in favor of riving knifes. But, I must say it seems pretty unlikely, mabey imposible for the kerf to close on the blade when the lumber is 3/8" or so past the blade. Ehhh.... I guess it could. I DO know that anti kickback paws work, and I've never had a problem with them catching the work.
To F.G. Exactly! The problem with splitters is not the concept or idea, but that most are very poorly made and designed. Again I have the Delta removeble splitter thing that came with the Unigaurd on my Unisaw and it is rock solid. I could literaly hit it with a hammer and not move it. And it comes out in 30 seconds.
I am very impressed with this new saw. The Saw Stop is a terific idea, and it sounds like this guy really did his homework on the design. I am very impressed with the man who designed it. He battled the manufacturers and the government to impliment the technology for years. Then after being defeated over and over, he attempted the absurd..... market his own saw! I would have told him to forget it, he'd go bust before he got through the design stage. And most wood workers are just not that interested in safety. But he did it, against all odds. I think he just might survive the competition and turn a good dime. I'd buy one if funds were not an issue.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Back to "riving" as in river vs. "riving" as in rival (pronunciation). Anyone know? Richard, are you out there? I've always thought it was a short i as in river, but Tom (who actually owns one!) says i as in rival.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
HI f-g
Riving as in 'rival' is the pronunciation.
An earlier poster asked if a board with internal stresses can close up before it hits the riving knife - does happen - probably about 1 board in a thousand if I was to recollect how often it happens. In this case, hold on tight and kick for the off switch.
Cheers,
eddie
IT couldn't be 1 in 1000 because I have cut many thousands with NO splitter at all. and more than that with one. I have never had it happen.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I have never had it happen. . . yet.Mike,I'm trade - not cuts, but boards (I usually rip 6" boards into 3-5 pieces now, teaching schoolkids) - the numbers I quoted are about my experience over here - predominantly cutting eucalypt, monterey pine and hoop pine (a native). Usually happens if the board has a few knots, and drying shrinkage is relieved around the knot as the blade passes through it. Cheers,eddie
Good point,
Aside from ripping the very rare stud I only cut premium lumber, no knots and kiln dried. Some times I get a pile of oak that has a lot of bad checks..... but I've not had a problem with that either.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
PINE WILL DO ALL SORTS OF STRANGE THINGS WHEN YA CUT IT!..
In fact I think PINE is a nice wood to work with.. Well, sometimes...
True story.. I was cutting a 2X12 by about 10 foot long .. Nice straight board.. Hardly any knots.. About half way through I heard what I thought was a rifle shot! Hardly any kickback because the stick was so big but the blade stopped dead!.. Blew the circuit breaker.. Well to make a long story short one side of the cut turned about 45 degree... LOL....
A little stick and I would have beed in real trouble....
that anti kickback pawls do anything much..
Saved my butt on my old Craftsman 12 inch radial arm saw once.. Them suckers dug about two inches into the wood.. Geeeee. Was I LUCKY!
I just got a new saw that has a splitter that's reasonably easy to remove....time will time how well I really like it. On my old saw I used different throat inserts for different cuts, and installed a splitter on one of them for ripping applications. It was a piece of cake to pop it in and remove it, and the little splitter worked really well. I may end up doing something like that with the new saw as well.Regarding the SS....why are they offering that junk fence on what's billed as a premium saw? I like the SS technology, but I think they lost alot of support when they tried to mandate it. I've read the comparisons of SS to seat belts, and the comparisons aren't valid in my view. Far more people drive cars than run saws, plus I'm in my car hundreds of minutes for every minute I run a saw. Seat belts save lives....lots of them, and in the process that saves all of us money. Mandated seat belts and motorcycle/bicycle helmets is good law. There's just no comparison with what SS offers to lifesaving devices.
Why do you think the fence is junk? I don't know what will be on the contractor's saw (there is a disclaimer that the picture probably isn't accurate) but from what I've heard of the cabinet saw, the fence resembles the Beis, but is more solid.Does anyone who has one want to comment?
Edited 5/23/2005 11:37 am ET by AlanS
The cabinet saw fence appears to be a decent steel Biese type. I was referring to the fence displayed on the contractor saw, and it's not nearly as substantial. Hopefully you're right and it won't be the stock fence they offer....it's just not on par with a premium saw.
Edited 5/23/2005 12:43 pm ET by knot scott
With the cabinet saw, any fence at all is an option, which I suppose works out OK for those who want a particular type, as long as they recognize what they get for their dough.The fence pictured as the default in the $800 configuration of the contractor's saw does not look as nice, and since upgrading it to a better 36" fence costs only $60 less than adding a 36" fence to the cabinet saw, they don't seem to be valuing the stock fence very highly, even if the picture may not be relevant. We'll see what they come out with.
They currently don't offer a fence delete option for their contractor.I use a Unifence and don't need to buy a fence with the saw but they're sending one anyway.
Regarding the SS comparison to seatbelts, there are few perfect analogies.I think that as a safety device that will greatly lessen injury in the event of an accident it seems comparable. But tablesaws rarely kill people; I will give you that.Though I think Johnny Cash's brother or father was killed in a tablesaw accident. Overreached and fell on the blade, hit him in the chest. Yikes!
"Though I think Johnny Cash's brother or father was killed in a tablesaw accident. Overreached and fell on the blade, hit him in the chest. Yikes!" Did you happen to catch the episode of CSI where a guy was pushed onto a TS? It was kind of interesting that even though the saw had an enclosed motor (looked like a Ryobi BT3100), the blood sprayed away from the victim and splattered beyind the saw against a wall....better effect I suppose...LOL!
And the recharge kit is in the neighborhood of $50...
Last time I was in the ER cost me $500.00 and I just had a ear ache!
popeye,
You wrote:
"Not that I value my blades more than my fingers, but in the event the brake gets engaged I'd hate to lose a Forrest blade AND have to install a recharge kit."Let's look at this logically. From what I understand, the brake should only engage if your finger/hand/other body part comes in contact with the spinning blade. In that scenario, you are seriously in danger of losing said body part. So, the only time the brake is employed, and your expensive blade ruined, is when the choice is between a blade and a finger/arm/hand. Which means that you need only ask yourself if a Forrest blade is worth more than a body part.If I am wrong, someone please let me know.
I just perused the Sawstop Web site to take a closer look at the contractor's saw. I'm big on safety, especially with riving knives, and would be very interested in seeing this saw in person.I looked at the bandsaw and chop saw videos on the Sawstop site. Am I the only one who has nightmares watching a chop saw in action?
"Am I the only one who has nightmares watching a chop saw in action?" Yikes! I had never seen one of those before. Makes my skin crawl.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
forestgirl,
Judging from this, and past discussions, I think you and I tend to have the same reaction to safety-related issues.I actually wish I had not seen the video. I'm not kidding when I say it gives me nightmares. I mean it literally.For those who haven't seen a chop saw in action, and who wish to know what I'm talking about, here's a link:
http://www.sawstop.com/products-future-products.htm
I'm with you in thinking the cartridge and blade loss are no big deal because you only need to pay for them when you have saved your fingers. But I think people who bring it up may be worried about false triggerings caused by something that would not have been a danger. Statistics would be helpful to see how uncommon false triggers actually are. I hope sawstop asks customers for comments whenever they order cartridges, and makes those available.
I sent SS an email asking for more info about false triggers.
It's also worth noting (and they state explicitly) if your hand gets "slammed" into the blade at a high speed, the brake may not work fast enough to prevent serious damage. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Kelly Mehler mentioned in FWW putting a hotdog on the end of a long stick and swinging it as fast as he could into a spinning blade. It did take a slightly larger nick out of the hotdog, but stopped quickly enough to have prevented serious injury. All sawstop is saying is that the saw's response, while very rapid, takes a certain amount of time. The faster you move into the blade, the deeper the cut; it's still a bad idea to pull on the outfeed side of stock being cut.They can't have good data on false triggers yet. From what I've been able to gather, they are rare, and those known may not even be relevant because the programming was probably modified in response. At this stage, they are poised to gather data on the way their stop works with real users. There is nothing so suspicious as someone making pronouncements about safety before they could possibly know. I'm comforted by the careful statements sawstop has made, that are supported by study.My opinion is that this saw is a very good development, and despite my status as a card-carrying cheapskate, I have placed a non-binding preorder for a contractor's saw. The riving knife is a big part of why I want the saw.
Edited 5/24/2005 1:57 pm ET by AlanS
"...swinging it as fast as he could into a spinning blade." Question is, was that as fast as a blade-inspired kickback would move it? I'm sure it wasn't. I'm not picking on Saw Stop -- I think it's a great invention. But IMHO it's important to keep it firmly in mind that it's not a perfect solution to every possible problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yes, well, if you swing your hand as fast as you can into a sawblade, you're going to give yourself a nasty cut even if the saw isn't running.
FG,
I'd be interested in hearing what SS has to say about false brake releases. I consider "release" to be the best term because the brake works by releasing a compressed spring. There are enough active woodworking forum posters with these saws that we would have heard if false releases were a problem. There have been a few false releases due to operator error (cutting conductive material without employing the bypass mode). There was one release report that sounded suspiciously like some employees were monkeying around and triggered the mechanism. I have only heard of one bonafide false release that was due to the machine. It was caused by a piece of metal that had not been properly glued in place at the factory. I'm sure that SawStop checks for that at the factory now. My SS has not released falsely, and I am confident that the risk of it happening is so remote as to not be reason to not buy the saw.
Regards, Dave
I'm hoping they'll write back soon. It'd certainly behoove them to have any problems with false "releases" taken care of, and like you I suspect they have.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Steve Gass is quick to respond to emails so you are likely to get a response in a day or so...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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A few points from SawStop's efforts to avoid false releases might be of interest. Early in development they refined the sensing system to tell the difference between most wood conditions and flesh. Extremely wet wood will connect the operator electrically to the blade, so they added the bypass mode for those times when PT wood is so wet that it soaks your face as you are cutting. Close to shipment of the first saws testing indicated that the addition of an electrical filter to the wiring harness tremendously reduced electrical noise that could lead to false releases. This first run of saws actually came with the noise filter shipped separately and installed by the buyer.
My own shop experiences led to further refinement of the cartridge software. My shop is unheated, and I noticed that my saw stuck in the active coast down mode until way after the blade had actually coasted to a stop. SawStop worked closely with me to figure out the problem. Parts were shipped and swapped out. The saw was declared normal, yet the problem persisted. It turned out that the cartridge was confusing pulsing of the internal heater (needed for the brake capacitor to operate properly in cold conditions) with pulses from the motor. They reprogrammed my cartridges to disable the heater during coast down, which took care of the problem. The new programming became standard for saws shipped afterward. They've worked hard on this, and the effort appears to have paid off.
FWIW, this past Friday SawStop changed over to their new site layout. Big difference. It's a much better site than before. You may want to visit.
Wow, the more I learn about what goes into this braking system, the more impressed I am. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
It's amazing what they've done with an R&D expense of around $3M. Shadetree mechanic budget but surprisingly sophisticated results. There's no way this saw could have been brought to market by one of the big boys. My guess is that R&D and retooling would have run at least 10x SawStop's. Adding in all the middlemen and marketing would have either given us a less sophisticated saw or a much higher price tag.
I'm kind of jealous of these guys. They managed to turn a simple idea into an opportunity to rethink the North American style table saw. Pretty fun stuff. Back to the topic of this thread - I'll be interested to find out more about the contractors saw that they hope to release in Winter 2005. Hopefully they will address common, and even remote, problems with the genre. People have rightly complained about the aluminum fence they show in the pictures. I wouldn't be surprised if, as the release date gets closer, they add fence upgrade options to the list.
dwright,
I agree with you about the efficiency of the SawStop people in bringing this safer tool to market. For a long time, I have argued, here on Knots and elsewhere, that North American manufacturers have been negligent in ignoring some major opportunities to improve table saw safety. I have mainly been focused on the lack of a riving knife on North American saws. Riving knives are a great idea, and I could never understand why no North American manufacturers would do it. Those who defended American companies said it was because of cost. Well...As you can probably tell, I'm more impressed with the addition of a riving knife than I am about the blade brake! I'm glad the SawStop people have done it. I hope the rest of the saw is well made, and if so, I hope they kick the asses of Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, Bridgewood, General, and Delta! It would be a lesson to North American manufacturers. This will really test whether people are willing to pay more for safety.
Edited 5/25/2005 12:09 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Matthew,
The riving knife is nice. I'm using it exclusively at this time - until I work through an experiment with the antikickback pawls. Some time ago I heard a rumor that UL or some other group might come up with a riving knife standard for table saws. If that happened it wouldn't be long before Delta and others came out with riving knife saws. As long as they are retooling, I wouldn't be surprised to see mysterious holes in the castings and a lot of room below and behind the blade in anticipation of future blade brakes.
Dave
I emailed Sawstop yesterday, suggesting that they post on their web site the number of replacement brakes ordered and when someone orders one to find out if it was a real save or a false save. I suggested to them that they would find the data useful as it accumulates and that a lot of folks on the boards were interested in these statistics as well.
Who knows, I might even get a response back from them. If I do I will post it1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
That's great. I haven't heard back yet, but will LYK if I do!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I just received this email back from SawStop
Thank you for your input. I will forward your ideas on to our website team.
Sincerely,Patty Terrazzino
SawStop, LLC<!----><!----><!---->22409 S.W. Newland Road<!----><!----><!----><!---->Wilsonville<!---->, <!---->OR<!----> <!---->97070<!----><!----><!---->
<!---->Phone 503-638-6201Fax 503-638-8601<!---->1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Well, aren't you special! I got nada, zip, zilch in response to mine. OK, Rick, it's your thing to follow now. Let us know if you hear anything else!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG & Rich,
Unfortunate that SS has not specifically replied to your e-mails. My personal experience with them is that Steve Gass himself is more responsive than his staff. There have been times when my e-mails to him have gone unanswered and it turned out that he had been overseas inspecting and working with the manufacturer.
It is also possible that Steve didn't think he could offer an accurate response to the questions so he decided to not answer at all. He may not have a solid basis for evaluation of false releases yet. I bet that operator-error releases are under reported. Most buyers have 1 or 2 spare cartridges, so they would not have to get replacements right away from SawStop. I happen to have 3 spares because I ordered 2 and SawStop replaced one that was outdated (but still works fine above 40 degrees). I would probably blow 2 of them before ordering more.
One the other side there's the possibility of people buying spares when there wasn't a trigger event. I only have one 8" cartridge and have been thinking about ordering a backup. Lastly, people might need to replace cartridges that haven't released but are mulfunctioning or have aged out. The latter condition, aging out, shouldn't start appearing for a while. It will first show up in industrial settings. At some point the capacitor that stands ready to melt the spring retaining wire has got to grow old and fail the startup diagnostic.
The bottom line is that cartridge sales might not be an accurate indicator of what is happening in the field. Their new site does list at least one actual save. I doubt that it will be able to carry comprehensive save data, nice as that would be, on account of personal privacy considerations. I too have suggested that they pump up the save data to the extent that they can. We'll see what happens. FWIW, last I heard they now have 7 verified saves. The last one was by a blind woodworker in Atlanta. (?!?!?!?!)
Best,
Dave
I was just joshin' Rich in my last post. He got a canned response, I didn't :-( No concern on my part that they didn't come back immediately with all kinds of numbers. I do think, though, that there should be some info about how they've engineered it to prevent false triggers since that seems to be what most people worry about. Maybe that's on there and I just didn't see it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
AlanS,
If the concern is over false triggers, then I can see the questions about losing expensive blades. SawStop has not been around long enough to develop stats on false triggers, so we don't know how much of an issue this really is. I would be curious to know how this pans out.For me, the riving knife is actually a more desireable thing than the brake. I wish that someone would make a standard contractor saw, but have a true riving knife on it.Maybe Grizzly or Ridgid will do this one day.
Edited 5/24/2005 12:49 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
I like my Ridgid BUT that spltter sure could be improved on! Easy on and off but them little blots they use to adjust it suck! AND it's about 1/2 inch behind the blade!
However.... I still like the saw.. ALOT.. Just me..
I have seen some folks state that the wood can get between the back of the blade and the splitter..
I'm old and have used many different types of saws.. I have never seen a hunk of wood get stuck there.. Just me???
Will,
I'm glad to hear that you have never had a piece of wood stick in that zone between the splitter and the blade! I have the Ridgid benchtop saw, and I really like it a lot -- great fence, solid construction, and a few other details. The only thing I do not like is the space between the splitter and the blade. But I also wonder whether I worry too much about this.Thanks for your input!
I never intended to imply that the cost of a blade or a recharge kit are worth more than a body part. It's just hard to convince me that this " invention "that Mr Gass came up with is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Perhaps it is? He even tried to make it a required feature on ALL new saws.--- You can't use a dabo blade on saws in Great Britain! Much to dangerous!!!!According to who???--- So I won't support some bureaucrat or his brilliant ideas. All accidents are ugly, and I don't want to see the results in a video,And imagine That Saw Stop will prevent the possibility of any accident. I guess I just prefer to have a respectable fear of the tools and rely on proper safety procedures and training. And have the freedom to make that decision without the help of "big brother." Len
You question that it was an invention?
Hey, Len. I wasn't a fan of his/their movement to try and get the SS required by law. However, I don't think that ill-advised move (IMHO) precludes respect for his invention and his perserverence and skill in getting it produced and available to the general public at a realistic price, especially given that the saw itself, by most reports, is a quality machine. I'm totally impressed with his ability to go from A to Z with this project, regardless of the fact that he took one tangent that was regrettable.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
popeye,
I absolutely agree with you that healthy respect for woodworking machines is vital in the long run in making sure you are a safe woodworker. But safety enhancements are good for those moments we all have when there is a lapse of logic, attention, and good sense.Another thing that comes to mind is that safety is an evolutionary process. Yes, the SawStop is a jump in safety, but generally, when you look at table saws on the market today, you see several improvements from decades ago: more accurate fences, less arbor runout, more consistent blade manufacturing, etc. These things happened slowly, over time, to the point where a 2005 cabinet saw is generally safer than a 1955 model. My point is that "respect for the machine" is vital, but we must also have logical growth in safety. If a table saw has inherent faults, such as an inaccurate fence, you have a greater likelihood of accidents no matter how much respect you hold for the machine. As machines develop and becomes safer with time, respect alone has more likelihood of preventing accidents.For me, I always think carefully about the steps involved in a cutting operation. But I like to know that if I plan carefully and thoughtfully, I can count on the machine to do its part.
Edited 5/24/2005 3:08 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
The cost comparison between a new Forrest blade & a $50 recharge kit vs. finger surgery is silly. Spending ~$200 on a new blade & recharge kit is nothing vs. ambulance, doctors, hospital, surgey, rehab, etc... I had an accident about two years ago on my table saw -- medical costs were in the neighborhood of $12,000+, plus several months of rehab. And I had only "clipped" two fingers (did not loose them). I'll spend $200 instead $12,000+ any day, not to mention time & aggravation.....
Sorry to hear you cut a couple of fingers! I did that once too, but with a skillsaw. How bout you buy one, and I don't! It's not about the blade and recharge kit. I just don't care for shop cops telling me what I can and can't do in my shop.(federal mandate). Dado blades are outlawed in England! Is that next. Enjoy the safety of your new saw!!! And be EXTRA careful around all those Other tools, you won't have that bullit proof safety factor. Len
Nobody should be forced to use safer tools.
Edited 6/6/2005 6:59 pm ET by adastra
Len, I think the whole government-mandated Sawstop thing is a dead issue, nothing to worry about. They tried it, got alot of publicity, but it died a thorough death. They are now putting their money where their mouth is and financing the production of their very own saw which is, IMHO, admirable.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
All very true,
If your main concern is safety and your choices are limited to saws with a riving knife and an emergency brake...... well your right. Plus by all accounts Saw Stop is making VERY good machines. Personally I feel pretty confident with my overhead gaurd. Mabey some day when I have the money I will switch to a saw with that technology, also after enough time has gone by for the technology to prove itself (mostly no false triggers).
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Thanks for the heads-up, adastra. I had no idea there were plans for a contractor's version.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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