You may be interested in the report here:
http://www.designnews.com/CA6360672.html
Apparently the Consumer Product Safety Commission has taken notice.
Get your helmits and flak jackets.Howie………
Edited 8/19/2006 2:20 pm ET by HowardAcheson
Discussion Forum
Edited 8/19/2006 2:20 pm ET by HowardAcheson
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Replies
Howie,
Thanks for the link. A lot of opinions out there on this subject. I am of the opinion that power tools haven't kept up with the times in terms of safety. So I guess if this forces folks to be a little more responsible in terms of safety in design - so be it. Having said that, we will all eventually pay for the upgrades. Tool companies are still going to get their money.
Duck and cover,
-Paul
Interesting to say the least. Looks like I'll be dead by the time the major manufacturers actually do something to make their saws safer. There is just so much information that I'd like to have that just isn't available.
There sure seems to be a lack of interest in our safety when a consortium of the major players hasn't turned up anything in three years.
For the present I'll just have to rely on statistics and safe working practices to keep my fingers. My Delta saw has a red table insert, my rule is that fingers don't go into the red zone. Push sticks, feather boards and the like can spend red zone time and they have their nicks to prove it.
Looks like I'll be dead by the time the major manufacturers actually do something to make their saws safer.
Don't worry about the other manufacturers. If you want what the SawStop company is offering buy one of their saws.
Vote with your wallet.
Hear, hear. I've read that many cabinet shops have gotten very interested in SawStop's saws, because the higher price is still a tiny fraction of the cost of a single accident involving an employee. According to the article I believe, they've already sold several thousand saws.No need to run to the government. The technology is available and ready for purchase. Eventually, when the costs come down, or at least the patent with its excessive license fees runs out, we'll see this technology on your typical Lowe's $200 hobbyist table saw.
Has anyone checked into whether or not insurance premiums can be lowered if you are using sawstop saws only in your shop? If so, that might balance out the cost differential in a few years.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
If you have a professional shop, I would think that it already makes economic sense to have these saws in order to avoid lawsuits, worker compensation, etc. If you have a professional shop, an extra $1000 isn't really a big deal, especially after you write it off your taxes. The insurance would probably give you a discount too.If you're a hobbyist in your garage, however, I doubt your insurance would give you any breaks. My insurance company doesn't even know I have a table saw, and never asked. Homeowners' insurance companies aren't in the habit of asking about all your dangerous hobbies.There seems to be a disconnect here between people with professional shops and hobbyists like myself. We need to remember that there's both types of people on here. What makes sense for one group may not necessarily make sense for the other group.
If you have a professional shop, I would think that it already makes economic sense to have these saws in order to avoid lawsuits, worker compensation, etc. If you have a professional shop, an extra $1000 isn't really a big deal, especially after you write it off your taxes. The insurance would probably give you a discount too.
If there is a worker's comp carrier giving a discount for owning SawStop saws I'd be most appreciative to know the name of the company.
Boss,
Can I ask what your real beef with the SawStop is? I would like understand your position.
Do you see a major issue with the technogly?
Do you feel that this makes a saw more unsafe?
Is your issue with the attempted/seemingly successful mandate?
Buster
At the moment, I'm looking for facts. I'll be SawStop's best customer if somebody can show me an insurance company giving discounts on workers' comp insurance premiums for running SawStop tablesaws. I have a feeling that nine-tenths of the participants in these SawStop threads couldn't put the cash together to buy one if their life depended on it.
I'll issue a purchase order for eight of them, today, if somebody will put me on the trail of a reputable workers comp carrier providing discounted premiums for businesses using these saws.
Of course, we will still use our power feeders on them..... :-)
I have a feeling that nine-tenths of the participants in these SawStop threads couldn't put the cash together to buy one if their life depended on it.
Nah, we're all overpaid office workers. We just like to buy machines to look at. Now you know why the tool reviews are popular. :)
Me, I tend not to worry too much about the machines. Even though I haven't been at it as long as you, I've surprised myself with some of the things that come out of the shop. At least my wife likes them.
The SawStop technology is something that I do think is worthwhile. I do have concerns regarding the logevity of the cartridges. But we'll see. I think making apoint regarding the inventors business ethics, without considering the ethics of the other manufacturers is a little silly.
Anyway in the end maybe I should give up all the machines and go to handtools...
The SawStop DVD that is included with (and mailed in a plastic overwrap with) certain woodworking publication subscriptions is incredible! Well produced! I predict a lot of these machines are going to get sold.
Edited 8/18/2006 4:30 pm by EdHarrison
If you have an accident reported to workers comp you will indeed find that it makes a difference in what you will be required to pay into workers comp. I think that includes all workers comp groups.
Tinkerer, I can practically compute my own experience mods. I'm aware of how it works.
I'm still awaiting the name of the insurance company referred to by somebody else in another post.
Boss;
You poor broke dick pauper,(I hate to reference things you said in a deleted post but oh well) we are talking about such a small amount of money here. After all you see dilettantes shops that you could put seven figures worth of work through. I am sure you must get nine figures worth of work through your own. Just go ahead and order the saws, it does not matter whether you think it's worth the expense or not or if there is any bang for the buck. After all you spend more than that on dead flowers for your wife. If you don't order them I expect you to be heading up the broke dick paupers department with your Proust book in hand.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
You consider the SawStop to be an expensive tablesaw? Is that your contention?
I am also a hobbyist, I was just curious for those who are professionals. It might be worth their while to discuss it with their insurance carrier and maybe some others.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
There is a lot of interest on this subject. Here is a different look. Last year I paid over a 100 grand for a new tractor that has so many safty features to keep us dumb farmers safe that I can't count them. Same with pickers and combines. Now if I had a woodshop business and had an employee working for me, I can't imagine complaining or hesitating about a $500 safty feature that would save a finger sometimes. I tried to catch a few kick backs over the years and have the scars to prove them, and also the bills for the stiches and tape. I don't remember the hospital bills, but I know they were over $500. Maybe Sawstop could sell us their saws and we only paid for their safty feature if we lost a few fingers....no that wouldn't work. Lets keep thinking.....in the mean time watch your favorite finger, and stay clear of kick backs. Oh yea, I now have a spliter, safty guard, and a bunch of long push sticks.
"Now if I had a woodshop business and had an employee working for me, I can't imagine complaining or hesitating about a $500 safty feature that would save a finger sometimes."Anyone with a woodshop business and employees would be dumb not to invest in safety features to protect their employees (and to protect against lawsuits).However, not everyone has a woodshop business. There's a lot of us hobbyists out there who have very limited budgets for our tools, and expensive safety features can make a real difference. If this feature costs, I'm guessing, $250 to add to a saw, what's that going to do to the saws presently in the <$500 range?There's a big difference between what a business can afford (and can write off, don't forget) and what a hobbyist in a small garage can afford. Advanced safety features should definitely be available on the market for people and businesses willing to pay for them, but don't force them on everyone prematurely. It'd be nice if even the poorest citizen could afford the safest car made, but simple economics prevents this.
There's a big difference between what a business can afford (and can write off, don't forget) and what a hobbyist in a small garage can afford. Advanced safety features should definitely be available on the market for people and businesses willing to pay for them, but don't force them on everyone prematurely. It'd be nice if even the poorest citizen could afford the safest car made, but simple economics prevents this.
There is also a big difference between what Joe's $1000,000 woodworking operation and Jim's $50,000 a year custom furniture shop. To force it on Jim's shop prematurely would be distaerous as well.
I also think that it would be unfair to force manufacturers to include SawStop technology. Any mandate would have to give the manufacturers enough time to evaluate other technologies and weigh them against SawStop or limit the royalties that Gass would be allowed to collect (since he does have a monopoly). That's all poltics though.
As well it should probably be phased in from top to bottom. Allow businesses to bear the cost. Start with Cabinet saws (3 HP and above), then phase in contractor/hybrid saws (less than 3HP), and finally if it is deemed appropriate include job site and benchtop saws. I would hope that by the time any technology would reach the contractor saw phase that it would be a reasonable price.
Hopefully in a few years this type of technology is cheap enough that we can all afford it.
I think it's crazy to be upset at Gass. If you or I had thought of this then we would be able to charge what we wanted for it. Just because the guy came up with something that the big tool companies didn't, doesn't mean that the goverment should be allowed to step in or any big company, and call him a monpoly and force him to done anything. But at the same time I don't think the goverment should step and say that all tablesaw need to have this feature.Kaleo
Kaleo,
I think I was a little unclear in my post. Sorry.
I am a huge fan of SawStop. I think the invention is a really clever device, and in my opinion way overdue.
I am not against the governement setting reasonable safety standards.
When talking about a monopoly I was specifically refering to if the governement specifically required the SawStop system. In that case it would have to be used, and Gass would technically be able to ask any price he wanted. That why I suggested that the mandate would also have to regulate price.
More fairly, and better for us is if a mandate gave a set of specifications and lead up period. The companies would then have time to look into, and possibly develope betters systems.
That's all politics, and in the end outside of my real interest in SawStop. I think the device, and the safety gains are much more important.
Woodworking is an inherently dangerous profession. While some advances in safety have helped, if one cannot assume the risks involved and the knowledge needed, then another hobby or career is strongly recommended, at least by me.
You make good points and it looks like it will be awhile before the price comes down unless another manufacturer steps in and invents, or modifies the feature to drive the price down thru competion. I would guess the price of the safty feature needs to get down to $100. It would be interesting to know how many saws are sold each day world wide and how many Sawstop could sell if they only got the $100. With no competion, it would seem they would have to make their money on the total package, but still come out ahead verses what they are doing now, especially with new vendors like Steel works coming on bascially pushing the same old saw features( I don't know anything about Steel). I personaly feel if Sawstop waits to much longer, another company, a better known company like Dewalt will step in and steal the marginal profit by looking a the whole picture.
I think you're right. Sawstop appears to be far too greedy, and probably could have gotten much more adoption had they made the license fees much lower. Instead, they've only made enemies.Steel City is just a bad idea; they're making more Taiwanese clone tools, in the same factories that everyone else over there uses, but instead of going the Grizzly route and selling them at low prices online, they're trying to jack up the prices by selling them only through authorized dealers. This would be fine if they were actually better tools, but if they're identical copies, what's the point? The only "innovation" they've come up with for the tablesaws is a titanium-nitride coating on the cast iron table to prevent corrosion.
I teach woodshop at a middle school. I just sent a p.o. to the district requesting one of these Sawstops.
I'm amazed that insurance companies haven't forced/ motivated/ encouraged companies to purchase this by offering lower rates if the shop is using a Sawstop.
I suspect workers comp insurers will need to see that the total number and/or severity of injuries is lower with shops using Sawstops. Given that there are other ways to get hurt in the shop, the total difference in dollars paid on claims may not be as dramatic as some might think.
The real change will come when people successfully sue manufacturers for failing to use available safety technologies, like riving knives or saw blade stopping systems like sawstop. Damages in product liability cases, especially in states which permit punitive damages, can be enough to get the attention of insurers and manufacturers, whereas worker's comp payments are much lower.
My Insurance agent actually CALLED me a few months ago saying the company wanted to know if I had a Saw Stop. I was blown away. I told my agent that I have OSHA gaurds and everything is well maintained. I suspect the Insurance companies will soon make changes over this.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
My Insurance agent actually CALLED me a few months ago saying the company wanted to know if I had a Saw Stop.
Having dealt with insurance companies, brokers, and agents for years I, quite frankly, find this statement hard to believe and would love to know who your carrier is.
And I'm amazed that hormone-charged, minimally supervised 12-14 year olds are using a cabinet saw.RSager said:
I teach woodshop at a middle school. I just sent a p.o. to the district requesting one of these Sawstops. It's also amazing that manufacturers can't even come up with a decent riving knife & blade guard.
That's right, 74 - 96 7th and 8th grade students 24 at a time. The shop has 2 7hp tablesaws and they run all day. Only one student has been hurt and that was on the 21" bandsaw. I hope Sawstop makes a bandsaw, mitersaw, and jointer soon.
The saw stop system is no worse than getting seat belts in a car. Its coming whatever the method made to work it.
But from what some other posters have said it needs a little tweaking.
But $3,500 for a new saw Vs. $60,000 for finger repair.
Oldtool,
I'm not sure about this but I think there is a lot more to the Sawstop than just the 'safety brake'. Someone wrote a review indicating that much more beefy construction was required to accomodate the torque generated from the sudden stop. I remember thinking at the time that all manufacturers would need to re-design and re-tool their cabinet saws to incorporate the brake...and wondering if the market(hobbiest especially) would tolerate a cost increase of this magnitude. John White has one at FWW perhaps he can clarify some...
>> I think there is a lot more to the Sawstop than just the 'safety brake'.Yes, I have played with one for about four hours. It is a saw clearly superior to any of the Unisaw, Jet, Powermatic saws currently on the market. The mechical parts are beefier and the fit and finish is superior. Add in the safety features and you have a unique saw.Howie.........
Based on my working with the Sawstop saw here in the Fine Woodworking Shop, the Sawstop is basically a machine whose price could easily be justified just on the basis of it's heft, excellent advanced design, and very high quality fit and finish. It is a $2,500 saw with another few hundred dollars of added cost for the safety brake. It isn't just an ordinary $1,000 saw with a $2,000 brake mechanism tacked on. Even without the brake, it is the saw I would want in my own shop if I were to go out and buy one tomorrow.
Just to be clear, we bought the Sawstop for the Fine Woodworking Shop at full price, and have no business arrangement or obligations with it's maker.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
To everyone that gave me a better instite into the saw itself, thanks. I just didn't know it was a better version of the old cab. saws. My personal problem is getting bigger regarding me ever getting one. I classify woodworkers into two catagoies - one, the hobby type(like my self), and the professionals that are making a living at it. One mostly buys the $600 contractor type saw, and the another, the cabinent saw for $1400. I know there are a wide range of variations, but the cost percentage for the safty feature is so great that the hobbiest is getting caught between buying that Safty feature saw verses maybe his dream saw, the Uni-saw, or cabinet saw. Look at 10 cabinet saws and they are all look the same. They might not be, but they are all better then my contrators saw. As long as the Sawstop is in the $3000 range I will never get one, but stick the safty feature on a beefed up contractor saw, paint it safty yellow, for maybe..$675, and I will start moving in the direction of buying.
Sawstop is in the process of developing a contractors saw for around $1000 . Check out their website for info. As John and Howie have mentioned the saw is exceptional whether it had the safety device or not. I probably have around 100 hours of use on the Sawstop at work. It is very solid and once it's set up-a very precise tool. It replaced a Unisaw that no one in the shop has missed.
A few observations so far:
The blade guard is un-obtrusive when in use. Its low profile and smooth action make it a huge improvement over what is currently the standard. However the plastic blade cover itself isn't all that substantial. A few times it has been knocked into sideways to the point where it makes contact with the blade. It doesn't take a lot of effort for this to happen. I can predict having to replace this part several times over the life of the saw if improvements aren't made. The guard comes off in seconds if needed. A Euro - style riving knife can install in its place.
Its integrated dust collection shroud that surrounds the lower part of the blade is an improvement over anything else I've used. It's not perfect, but closer than the competition.
The switch is large and easy to shut off with a bump of the knee. It doesn't come on until the "off" toggle is pulled out - no accidental starts.
It comes with a T-square style fence akin to what is on just about any other saw out there - if it ain't broke.....
One other small annoyance that we are in the process of remedying is a slight belt squeak when first started. I believe this to be a case of the belts " breaking in" maybe a little stretch to be tensioned. There are 2 flat serpentine style belts that transfer power from the motor to the blade via an intermittent pulley. I believe this system is employed to dissipate static electricity that could interfere with the safety device. This belt system may be one of the reasons the saw is so smooth.
I guess the bottom line so far is only minor issues to deal with. The saw does see a lot of use. I'm sure more time will yield more observations- stay tuned.
Good luck,
-Paul
Thanks for giving me your real experience and knowledge on the subject....now we're getting somewhere.
You are welcome, glad I could help.
-Paul
I checked with the SawStop people and the basic price point is going to be around $1,200. By the time you add a few extras, it will be a $2000 saw with shipping.
John, that's exactly my experience with the saw. It is a couple of cuts above the current crop of table saws.Howie.........
John,
I appreciate your support of this forum and for your insights periodically posted. Others may not be as appreciative but rest assured, some of us thank you and Fine Woodworking.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Thank you.
John W.
Thank you for the input. I think the saw is a great idea. If the Government gets involved there will have to be a mechanism to stop kickback, better dust collection systems and on and on and on. Then we will have to retrofit older saws even for a one man shop. Insurance companies are going to jack up their rates for those of us that don't have nor can afford it. Where will it end? I can see this in a place of business but for the weekend warrior that should be his choice. Dave in Pa.
Dave the expense of the cabinet saw is why they are soon coming out with a contractor's saw, as I am sure it will be more in reach of the hobbiest.Ron
Edited 8/18/2006 11:21 am ET by Ronaway
As a result of all this discussion I am giving serious consideration to the purchase of a Saw Stop Saw. What I can't believe is that not a single manufacturer was willing to offer a new saw in their line at whatever price that utilized this safety feature. It just seems plain stupid on their part.Ron
What I can't believe is that not a single manufacturer was willing to offer a new saw in their line at whatever price that utilized this safety feature. It just seems plain stupid on their part.
I am a supporter of SawStop, and like you am considering moving up to the saw after the great reviews it has gotten here.
We don't know exactly what keeps SawStop out. It may be a cost of changing the design of the saws, or it could be the cost of the device itself. It may even be a fear of lawsuits. I think it's a competitiveness issue. We woodworkers are cheap. We talk about quality, and safety, and then we go buy the value tools. Unless all manufactures added the feature how could someone compete if only their saws went up 15% (just an arbitrary number used as an example). However this is not an excuse for the industry as a whole.
The woodworking machinery industry really seems to be behind the curve on all this. Lots of safety equipment has been out for years, and has a proven track record. Take riving knives for instance. Yet with the exception of three American companies (Powermatic, Laguna, and SawStop) there are no saws with this feature. Most companies use an poorly designed splitter/guard combo, that is time consuming to put on and take off, and essentially begs not to be used. Even companies like Steel City Tool Works a new guy on the field has not included this feature on their saws, instead opting to put their money into a new anti-rust coating on the table.
There has been lots of discussion questioning Gass's (SawStop) business ethics relating to trying to mandate SawStop like devices on table saws. However not one person has brought up the business ethics of the table saw industry itself. The design of the table saws have not changed dramatically in many years. Safety has advanced in Europe but for the most part we have seen no change in American style saws (except for three saws). Personally I doubt the ethics of comanies that have not taken steps to make their products safer.
Why would manufacturers want to totally re-engineer and redesign their table saws, retool factories, and need to charge hundreds more--when other machines will be available for the old prices, and when used machines can run for decades. (My unisaw was made in 1945, I think.) Hugh financial risk for what may turn out to be a niche market of 3,000 saws a year.
Low-end table saws may not even be feasible with SawStop technolgy, if even cabinet saws need to be beefed up to withstand the stresses. A 250 pound "jobsite" saw just doesn't fill the bill.
At present, the makers of the standard saws don't really have a liability problem since (1) everyone knows table saws are dangerous, and (2) very few of the accidents that do occur with the manufacturer supplied blade guard in place, even if blade guards could be used.
With a new design there is greater risk that something has been engineered incorrectly--not having 50+ years to work out the bugs in the castings. We saw that happen when production shifted overseas in the recent past. Defects rose for a time, even with new implementation of very old tried-and-true designs.
"It just seems plain stupid on their part." From reading a news report awhile back about a big meeting between Gass and the industry attornies, it was apparent that this is the main reason they didn't buy the technology:
"Industry sources say the major manufacturers also worry that adding the safety brake to some table saw models but not others would make them vulnerable to lawsuits. " [from npr.org artcle linked above] forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
>>Manufacturers worry adding the safety brake to some tablesaws but not others would leave manufacturers vulnerable.<<Then how far behind the 8-eight ball will they be when the day comes Sawstop technology standards for safety and quality sweep the market and the naysayers find they are the targets of lawsuits for doing nothing?
Do you think saw stops pockets are deep enough yet to withstand a couple of multimillion dollar lawsuits if something goes awry? How long before a highschool kid sticks his finger in the blade just to see it work? What happens if it does'nt work? QC is not perfect sooner or later they will have a bad cartridge or malfunction in some part of the system. How many folks do you think will sue for replacement blades and cartridges because it fired and "honest my fingers were'nt anywhere near it". Too soon to say whether the company will make it or not. I bet their worst nightmare is that the asian engineers come up with a system that works as well costs next to nothing and does not eat the blade. Probably an asian engineer working for Delta or Powermatic.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
"I bet their worst nightmare is that the asian engineers come up with a system that works as well costs next to nothing and does not eat the blade. Probably an asian engineer working for Delta or Powermatic."
What the heck is this garbage supposed to imply? One of the most ridiculous statements I've read on these boards.
-Paul
What part of it do you find troubling?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I guess I don't understand what difference it would make if the engineer were Asian, Hispanic, White, Black, Green, Purple , etc., etc.
I'd like to believe, given the context of the statement, that perhaps you didn't give it a whole lot of thought .
-Paul
I was using asian in the geographic sense not the ethnic sense. Many of the US companys are having things made in Korea, China,Taiwan, Malaysia, Japan etc. That geographic area and those countries have devoted a lot of investment in engineering schooling and have been prolific in innovative design. No ethnic kudos or slight was intended. Asia the geographic area is home to many ethnicitys. A good engineer can be of any color or ethnic background. As it happens we are having many of our tools produced in that area and that area is turning out way more engineers than we are in the US. One need only look at automobiles or electronics to see that they are very good at making things better and less expensive.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.
-Paul
No problem, I should have been more clear in my original post.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
"That geographic area and those countries have devoted a lot of investment in engineering schooling and have been prolific in innovative design."Exactly. And by contrast, enrollment in engineering colleges in the USA has been on a long downward trend, and these days, most engineering students in the USA are actually foreigners who will return to their home countries upon graduation. American students look at the engineering profession and see long hours, poor pay, no job security, no job prestige, and outsourcing, so they go into Law school instead. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I don't see how this country can keep up its economy long-term without any technical talent.
Maybe we need a new trade agreement, for every engineer they take home they have to take two lawyers. We don't produce much anymore but we sure consume a lot. I don't think were going to like the inevitable adjustment much. We are going to have to import our technical talent for a while.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
This is a growing trend but by far not the norm. Most of these students want to remain in the US. The professional opportunties here are much greater, especially if they want to work in state of the art labs on cutting edge research and design. And despite its current weakness, earning in dollars is also very advantageous for them when it comes to helping out relatives.
At the university I am at there are very few graduate students who return to their home land. The majority come from countries where the pay is low and they can make much more here.
You missed one, and probably the most important IMHO, Asian country for the production of engineers - India. China seems to produce more research scientists, statisticians, etc. in my experience.
Dave,
The U.S. government has no ability to force a one man shop, whether a business or a hobby, to upgrade or retrofit safety equipment, there is no government agency that even worries about such things.
OSHA requirements only cover shops with employees and that agency could conceivably require better safety equipment on saws once the technology becomes available, but the process of creating the rule changes will take a number of years and would typically allow time for newer equipment to be phased in.
Insurance companies insuring a commercial shop, especially one with employees, might require a Sawstop type of saw, but this is nothing new or unique, the insurance companies have always required shops to be reasonably safe, and most insurers regularly inspect the shops they insure for all types of hazards.
If you have a personal, non-commercial shop in your home, your insurance company wouldn't care what machinery you own.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
You missed the point, I think. If the government wants to start regulating this they will thru OSHA. It may not happen in our life time but what concerns me is what kind of problems it will cause for the one man shop. If the insurance companies (workman's comp)see the accident rate go down because of saw-stop the rates will go up for someone who doesn't have one. The larger shops will have the insurances companies looking over their shoulder all the time. If my carrier tells me I can get a break on the rate with a saw-stop T/S I will buy one, but what about my Jet T/S that I currently have? Sell it or moth ball it? In my eyes it would be better to get a retro fit for it and continue on my merry way.
Edited 8/18/2006 6:18 pm ET by DaveinPa
I personally would rather that the government stay out of my shop. And being a staunch, dyed-in-the-wool capitalist, I say when enough people are willing to pay the extra money for enhanced safety features is when the other manufacturers will take notice. At the present time, there is little or no incentive for these manufacturers to make machinery safer. After all, the big tool manufacturers probably sell in a week what SawStop sells in a year. When it becomes economically feasible for these companies to make safer equipment, you can bet they will.
There is possibly another way for the gov't to be a player in the introduction of Saw Stop, other than through OSHA. In those states where Workman's Comp insurance may be purchased through a Competitive State Fund in lieu of a private carrier (such as Pennsylvania) couldn't a state legislature be persuaded to lower premiums for Saw Stop-equipped shops? At this point, I wouldn't think it would take much more than viewing the the dad-blamed DVD to convince anyone that it's a good idea. That would really get the ball rolling and force private insurance carriers to play catchup. As long as gov't is going to BE in the insurance business, they might as well be responsive to the latest trends and achievements in safety.
BTW, for the B. Crunkster, - if I was searching for a private insurance carrier that would offer reduced rates on Workman's Comp for Saw Stop-equipped shops, I would certainly search through http://www.zanderinsurance.com. Zander Insurance Group specializes in exactly those sort of customized insurance packages. IOW, if anyone could find you a discount for SawStop, it would be them.
OSHA and workman's comp only apply to shops that have employees. A self employed woodworker wouldn't be bothered by either.
It would be impossible to retrofit a Sawstop mechanism into a standard saw.
John W.
"Interesting to say the least. Looks like I'll be dead by the time the major manufacturers actually do something to make their saws safer. There is just so much information that I'd like to have that just isn't available."I know a salesman in a major tool company and he told me that many of the tools they make are exported. The tools they export are much safer than those kept in the US. He told me that it would be an admittance of negligence if they changed to a safer tool they already have which would open them up to lawsuits. So they choose to keep the same lesser safe tools in the US market. It is the same way with aircraft.In 1988 I talked with Davis and Wells about buying a machine and the man there told me that they had been sued so many times for things which were not their fault. For example they had to defend themselves against a money hungry man who hurt himself on a shaper built in the late 1930s using a jig he had made himself and was bad. But the cost to defend themselves against such lawsuits was so great it caused them to go under.
My employer (25 man custom millwork shop) recently replaced an aged General 350 with a Saw Stop. My personal observations is it is a much nicer saw to work with. However, there is a learning curve involved. The operator's manual is a small book and I think I'm the only one who has read it. There are many safety features built in which won't even let you turn on the saw if there is an improper adjustment. For example, one of the other employees put in a freshly sharpened blade & the saw wouldn't start. The red & green indicator lites were flashing a code for improper 'blade to stop block' spacing due to the smaller diameter of the nearly 'sharpened out' blade. He couldn't be bothered to work with "that d*mned saw', but it was only a simple 15 second adjustment.
Dust collection inside the saw isn't what it could be. IMHO, the 4" outlet is too small. That being said, I had noticed that the blade-angle indicator was not returning to '0' after a bevel cut. A quick check showed it wasn't cutting square when the saw tilt was fully against the stop. I figured an adjustment was in order. After blowing out the mechanism, It worked just fine. Looks like the mfgr. put in a horizontal anvil surface that collected enough dust to block full return to '0'.
Looks like machines like this are going to drag us 'kicking and screaming' into the age of technology. I don't find that to be a bad thing. Being more cautious about not setting off that brake with a $2-300 price tag makes me more aware of where my fingers are at all times
Paul
I see that from a column (see attached link) that the CPSC knows about SawStop and its staff has recommended that the commission proceed with a rulemaking process that will likely result in a mandatory safety standard for table saws
http://www.designnews.com/article/CA6358133.html?industryid=43652&text=saw
Interesting or worrisome? Will we be forced to retrofit our older saws or junk them prematurely? I understand that a blade is lost with each accident in addition to the labor required to get it running again, not to mention cartridge cost. Government agencies have a way of doing as much harm as good many times.
One thing I can't get my mind to understand is this: How can we (humanity) be so terribly concerned about workshop (or auto) safety while at the same encouraging inherently more dangerous activities such as bungee jumping, skydiving, auto racing, hunting, rock climbing, hiking among wild animals, motorcycle jumping, space travel,......on & on?
Cadiddlehopper
To be completely honest I could care less how much a new blade and cartidige would be, if it meant that I could keep my fingers.It's amazing technology, but like the article states major tool companies can't or won't invest the capital required to change there production lines. If you can't be sued or have to pay damages for injuries that your machine can cause then why changes them?Kaleo
There are other ways to keep all your fingers. The main difference is that you must take personal responsibility rather than holding an industry responsible for your personal safety. There are many other dangers to many more people which our government refuses to consider. Maybe we shouldn't get all lathered up over saw safety. The problem should go away soon anyway -- when all the wood is gone.Cadiddlehopper
I'm glad to see the devices or equivalent being mandated. When our Workman's Compensation and your OSHA make them mandatory, there will be a lot more young woodworkers able to pick the dust out of their noses while driving home from work with a complete selection of fingers.And don't worry too much about older saws because there is always a grandfathering clause that will allow them to cut for a long time before being phased out. Then they will be sold to hobbyists.:-)
QC,
"And don't worry too much about older saws because there is always a grandfathering clause that will allow them to cut for a long time before being phased out."
So you really think so? I'd like to introduce you to the Insurance Industry....what do you think the costs will be for those that don't have the technology?
<<..what do you think the costs will be for those that don't have the technology?>>The industry would have lower premiums as a whole if the yearly count of severe injuries were removed from the bigger picture. The choice as to whether to pay the up front cost or a whole lot more later is up to the individual. Assuming they still have enough fingers to do their job and can hold a pen to sign for the payments.Anyone that believes good work practices will prevent injuries from happening to them is going to be hurt in the future. My father has a right thumb that is 1/2" shorter than the left. It only took him about 45 years of professional woodworking to joint that tip off. A "JointStop" device could reduce an injury like that to a cut. (Edited to add.) I can recall a past post or two where someone told us about their injury with their saw and that they were in for a long recovery. I don't remember any one blasting them for being a twit and not working safely. If they were asked now what their opinion of the SawStop was, I'm sure they wished that they had one.I also think it won't be all that long before someone will design a retrofit for the older common saw models. It may not drop the blade, but one could be made to stop the blade at the height it was cutting at. The device could be bolted in the splitter holes that are vacant on the majority of saws in use now.I have to wonder if Powermatic (or Grizzly for that matter) had dreamed up the SawStop and put it on their saws as a factory standard without being mandated, would we be arguing about the device? Or would everyone be praising them instead and grumbling about those that didn't have them?And I'll come clean. I don't have any guards on my table saw, because the ones that came with it were garbage. I am however considering replacing it with the SawStop.
Edited 8/15/2006 2:45 pm by QCInspector
The replacement cartridges are in the $80 range+the ruined blade=about $200. Still a lot better than micro surgery. I use a Sawstop everyday at work. We've had it about 3 months or so. No one has tripped the mechanism and I hope no one ever does. I don't approach the use of the saw differently because I know the safety device is there. I use the same amount of care as always. The sound of a spinning blade is all the reminder anyone would need to continue using caution.
I hope the advent of this tool causes a revolution in safety for all makers. In my opinion- it's about time.
Cheers,
-Paul
I think the point isn't to eliminate activities that are dangerous. The point is to add safety features to those activities when the cost isn't prohibitive. It seems that there is much debate about whether the saw stop technology is in fact too expensive.
Gass can be thankful his adversaries are tool companies rather than the food & drug industry/regulatory agencies.
I have had his cabinet saw for a year now. It is all I could have hoped it would be!
I am reading an old post of yours re: Sawstop. Can you respond to my questions just posted today? Thanks woodshoplast
It is too bad that the government has to coerce manufacturers to stop thinking of their profits and to adopt safety features. It has happened in almost every industry (e.g., seatbelts). What may move the other manufacturers along is what could happen next in the courts. Since the government appears to be siding with Gass it implies that they also believe the other manufacturers failure to adopt a similar feature is negligent. Now we just need someone to get a good lawyer and sue Jet, Delta or whoever for their lost finger and point to SawStop and the governments finding regarding the need for more safety. A nice big fat multi-million dollar lawsuit against one of the big manufacturers will wake them up and everyone else too.
WoodlLess
Has anyone put their fingers into the spinning blade of a Saw Stop?That would be the true test.
This may add a few threads to this post (or maybe I'm just the last guy to see it). I just got the new Woodshop News with the Saw Stop "Not if, but when" DVD. Perty dang slick. The intro almost rivals "Signal 30" (the 50s anti drunk driving film they used to show us in school -- remember the truck driver and the pipes?), and the features portion is good too. I'm just reporting here, not trying to stir up more trouble. I want this company to make it and think they produce a good product. But unlike the Japanese auto makers who began to take market share from the Big Three back in the 70s with higher quality and lower prices, Saw Stop is trying to succeed with high quality and high prices, and of course their lead benefit -- safety -- which took Volvo years to even begin to be able to sell. That's going to be tough, but what do I know?
I think the good production in the DVD argues against the "flash in the pan/ not really tool makers as much as lawyers" argument that some folks have argued. No one would have produced that DVD without a big-time, no-nonsense marketing plan. I think they plan on selling a whole bunch of these saws. I think it's a very good safety innovation, sort of like the HANS device in auto racing.
If you intend to market your saw to the type of woodworker shown in the video with his hand pushing in line with the blade you had better make it foolproof. Not that it will save his hand after he's switched the feature off because of wet wood or no replacement cartridge. I won't even get into what type of loon would have his hand in the path of the blade and then look away from the cut as shown. Nothing will save him from eventual injury in a shop.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
You're saying it won't work if its switched off or not there. Jeez, I never would've thought of that, dgreen,...
Thousands of amputations each year. If you stop some of them, its a worthwhile effort.
Yes, accidents will happen in the shop. The DVD may have exagerated what some people do, but you could read the self-reported mishaps on this forum and see that people will do some startlingly unsafe things. You could work in a large cabinet shop for a few months and see people do startlingly unsafe things. I think if you just stop a percentage of amputations each year, then Sawstop is worth it.
An aggressive safety posture will eliminate most opportunities for accidents to develop - same as flying aircraft for a living. My Dad taught shop for 35 years - allowed tens of thousands of students to experience use of the tablesaw under close supervision. Never an accident in 35 years. Not one. That didn't happen by itself. That's the kind of aggressive safety posture that I recommend for all woodworkers.
But I'm still going to buy the Sawstop machine.
I did not say it was not worth having I said trying to have your product mandated when the free market refuses to buy your license scheme is wrong. You are free to buy it and if enough people do it will keep their company afloat. I draw the line at being forced to spend my money to subsidize safety for idiots. As you pointed out 35 years, tens of thousands of students and no injuries and no saw stop.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I did not say it was not worth having I said trying to have your product mandated when the free market refuses to buy your license scheme is wrong.
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf
You are free to buy it and if enough people do it will keep their company afloat. I draw the line at being forced to spend my money to subsidize safety for idiots. As you pointed out 35 years, tens of thousands of students and no injuries and no saw stop.
The 200M tablesaw market costs 2B a year.
If numbers can talk... they will say:
Make those tools safe or take them out from the market
I use few tablesaws for many years.
I was lucky few times.
I guess I'm a lucky idiot.
YCF Dino
Edited 8/26/2006 6:27 pm ET by dinothecarpenter
Dgreen, The type of loon that might have his hand in line with the blade would be a competent experienced woodworker that happens to very tired from working long hours in the shop and distracted by someone else in the shop which could result in just an instant of impaired judgement. Ron
Having ones hand in the path of the blade is not the act of a competent experienced woodworker. It is a bad practice whether you are tired or not.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Having ones hand in the path of the blade is not the act of a competent experienced woodworker. It is a bad practice whether you are tired or not.
I agree that it is a bad practice. I think the poster was making a statement that even smart people make mistakes, which the do.
Are you implying that anyone who has had a table saw accident is incompetent and inexperienced? I'm sure many of those people would disagree, even if the accident was entirely their fault.
This has been an incredibly long post. Can you please restate your position on the sawstop. Specifically: 1) If the invention is worthwhile (and why or why not). 2) You position on the attempted mandate. 3) Your position on Table Saw Safety (Do you use a splitter etc...)
I do think it is worthwhile since not all users are competent or experienced. I am glad there is a product for people to buy if they choose to go that route. That being said, I think sawstops solution is inelegant and wasteful. I have no doubt that if the market expresses a desire for devices like SS's that some clever engineers will come up with a resettable one that does not eat blades.
As to the mandate I think it's wrong for a variety of reasons that I have gone into at some length on this and other threads.
As to my opinion on table saw safety, I do use a riving knife when ripping, I replaced the junk guard with an overarm one that works much better, I never put my hands in the path of the blade or over the top of the blade. The nicks im my various push sticks are a constant reminder of what can happen with contact with the blade. I will not use the table saw or any other tool that it's possible to get my hands in a spinning cutter when I am tired. Getting hurt while trying to finish a job when tired will not only put that job behind schedule but other projects also. Scheduling shop time and activities so that one is not too tired to do something safely is imho part of being a competent woodworker.
I am not implying, I am saying vehemently that anyone who passes his hand over the blade or pushes toward the blade with ones hands in the cutting path or who cannot concentrate on the cut in progress or who operates machinery while too tired to safely do so is worse than incompetent regardless of his level of experience. No amount of mandates will ever make them safe in a shop.
Thanks for your interest in my admittedtly non politically correct opinions.
Wishing you safe work habits and enough sleep :)
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Actually, they have. Read here:
http://sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htmforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I worked in a furniture factory years ago and the only injury I saw was on a jointer. Later I went to work for a small millwork shop and the only person hurt was hurt on a jointer. Both of them had not been working there long and did not have much experience on a jointer. We had a table saw that would handle up to 28" blades and to my knowledge nobody had ever been hurt on that table saw in the over 50 years of work on that saw. The only saw that anyone had ever been hurt on was the 10" table saw. There tends to be a more casual attitude on smaller saws than on large ones.In my years of teaching high school I never had one student hurt on a piece of machinery. Part of the reason is that I would not let a student work on a machine until he passed a safety test with a 100% passing score. He had to demonstrate it to me the first few cuts. I also demonstrated each machine to the class. My rule was that if a student was caught violating a rule he was given a warning. The second time he was removed from the machine. The third time he was out of the class. I never had to do more than warn a student.For a lot of rips we had a power feed on a table saw. The guards we had on the other table saw made it difficult to get hurt if it was placed right. I trained the students to rip without push sticks. If they ripped long pieces I had them flip the board end for end if it was a narrow piece. In that same class the teacher who had taught before me had the students so paranoid about a 16" table saw that they told me they had never seen it used. I found that that when the older students saw me demonstrate it. Personally I have never seen anyone hurt on large machines but I have on small underpowered machines. A lot of accidents I read about happen with poor wood preparation. If the lumber is good quality and properly jointed the likelihood a piece of wood going crooked is unlikely.I have nothing against new technology at all. I think it is great that we have safety laws and better machinery. However not every machine has that technology. I believe that most accidents happen because of people getting in a hurry and doing stupid things that should be avoided. For example the testimonials on sawstop's website shows eactly that. There are saws which are manufactured that would be almost impossible to get hurt on. If a cabinet shop had a tabel saw with a power feed or owned a straight line rip saw it would be very difficult to get hurt when ripping stock.
Thanks for the info.
I saw a SawStop with the table off this morning right next to a Unisaw with its table off. Safetey mechanism aside, it's an attractive machine -- a true riving knife, narrow blade guard, dust collecting cowling, heavy trunions, and double belt system so the tilt mechanism fits inside the cabinet. All good things in their own right.
One interesting point from the public review is that it would probably put an end to Shopsmith if all table saws were required to have the proprietary mechanism.
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