Just got an emailed newsletter from SawStop. Pretty upbeat stuff. Their saw received the Readers’ Choice award from Woodshop News. They also report that “many” customers are replacing their current saws with SS saws, including a Pennsylvania shop thats turning out all their Powermatics and brining in SS saws (Looking for a used saw? There ya go!).
Prices are going up on August 1st though. Sounds like the contractor saw should be out in time for Christmas!
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
I got the same email - a hold over from our emails to them about a month ago I assume. I just did not want to be seen as hawking their hype by bringing it up here. I see you have no such scruples though - - LOL - just kidding.
I had the same idea on the powermatics myself - just wished it had been a NW company where I could have gotten in on it.
Can't remember if I signed up for a newsletter or not, but this is the first thing I've gotten from them, so they're definitely not swamping me with mail.
Given the sentiment around here that The Pros are (or should be) the judges, seems like having cabinet shops swap out their BrandX saws for the SawStop speaks pretty well of their design and construction. I don't have any delusions of being able to buy one, but plan to keep up on how they're being received.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I remember that you and I both emailed for some info, so I am assuming that they keep track of the email address of all inquiries and we may expect to get more occasional updates like this.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
The Woodworkers Club in Rockville installed one a few monthes ago and it is a nice machine. We've have had one STOP when somebody hit a spinning blade with a metal rule. (Don't ask!) It also doesn't like to cut wet wood. One of the guys brough in some wet, pressure treated lumber and the saw sensed the wetness and would not cut it. Bobby
> I don't have any delusions of being able to buy one...
I, on the other hand, am completely deluded, and am on the waiting list for the contractor's model.
I emailed about ship dates, and the nice lady said I'd definitely have it before year-end.Jim
I am a bear of very little brain, and long words bother me. -- Winnie-the-Pooh
I have a SawStop cabinet model. I hurt myself on my Unisaw and I don't intend to do that again! The quality of the saw is just fine. The table is flat within their stated tolerance, which they claim is the best in the industry, but my old Unisaw is flatter. I have a good Unisaw for sale. . . I have tripped the stop three times now. Probably all my fault. Once due to trying to cut wet wood, once because I touched it with metal - one of those aluminum tapering jigs, and once when I had just put on a new cartridge and it tripped when I turned on the saw. Probably also my fault because I didn't have enough clearance between the cartridge and the blade. Saw Stop had me send in the fired cartridge for them to examine. SawStop has replaced two of those for free. I wouldn't let them replace the one which touched the tapering jig. The SawStop technical people are the best I have ever dealt with. I wish them good luck with their business. In fact, I envy them. The saw is very expensive, but I think SawStop would sell if for less if they could. I highly recommend this tool.
If you don't mind me asking, what's it cost each time you trip the mechanism?-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
It would cost $60.00 + a new blade, but each time Saw Stop has replaced the cartridge for free. They asked me to send the fired cartridge back because there is information stored in a chip built into the cartridge and they are interested in actual incidents in the field. One isn't supposed to reuse a blade after the cartridge has slammed into it. A 24 tooth rip blade obviously had a bent tooth. I am reusing an Amana blade which appears to be OK even though I shouldn't because a carbide tip could have been loosened. Surely the blade from time the cartridge tripped when the saw was turned on is OK because it wasn't turning when it happened and their wasn't much force involved. According to Murphy's law, this only happens with expensive blades installed. OK, it is a corrillary to Murphy's law which I just discovered!
"$60.00 + a new blade"
Yikes!
I'm sure glad they're footing the bill (at least in your case) for the cartridges.
I'm curious about the damage a thin-kerf blade would sustain compared to a 1/8" thick blade.
I can't imagine I'd be a happy camper after replacing three WWII blades at $105+tax each, plus the cost of new cartridges, for three false alarms. However, if my insurance carrier reduced my rates substantially because of the safety devices built in to the SawStop, it might be a lot less painful over time.
What has your insurance carrier had to say about your SawStop?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
We had a misfire a few monthes ago and I'm not so sure the blade got that trashed. The spent carteidge with the embedded blade is is sitting on my desk and as far as I can tell it probably needs a sharpening. As far as the teeth (5) embedded in the cartridge I can't tell if they need replacement or not.
Ted, when you say "misfire" do you mean a false-tripping episode?? If so, it'd be most kind of you to call SawStop and let them know, send in the cartridge so they can run diagnostics on it. People who are in the wings watching this saw will appreciate it!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"I'm not so sure the blade got that trashed. The spent carteidge with the embedded blade is is sitting on my desk and as far as I can tell it probably needs a sharpening. As far as the teeth (5) embedded in the cartridge I can't tell if they need replacement or not."
Ted,
A few questions, please:
The blade and cartridge are locked together in a death grasp?
Where's the cartridge engage the blade - right at the teeth?
Can a mere mortal disengage the spent cartidge from the blade to examine the blade in detail?
1/8" thick blade or thin kerf?
Any apparent deformation of the blade plate?
Thanks,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
The blade is dug into the aluminum brake pad not so much in an unremovable situation but if I were to cut apart the aluminum surrounding the blade I could seperate the two fairly easily. The blade engages the aluminum by digging itself in an inch about 3/4" -1".
It's a thinkerf blade and as far as I can tell suffered no blade deformation.
Thanks for the update, Ted!
I think the SawStop is a great idea - especially in a school environment. If it could be cost-effectively retrofitted into existing cabinet saws, it would probably be even more likely to see implementation in environments with restricted capital budgets - like schools.
Information from actual users is just beginning to dribble out, so it's hard to separate the marketing hyperbole from the experiences of actual users. Posts like yours go a long way toward ensuring an uninterrupted flow of useful information.
I'm really curious about the real-world experiences of SawStop purchasers with respect to their insurance carriers and premiums since insurance savings would help offset the cost of admission and encourage investment in the SawStop system.
Thanks,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Review the history of this device:
1. Mr Gass tried to sell it to different manufacturers. NO takers $$$too high
2.Mr. Gass tried to get CPSC to mandate it. Dead End, Thank Goodness! (This is likely why the marketing hype is skewed in this direction)
3.Finally went into saw business on his own (or some partnership ... bla, bla, bla)
4. New saw on the market. Nowhere on the website could I find the cost one could expect to spend to put saw back into operation when the mechanism tripped. RIGHT! If it tripped and prevented an amputation, this cost would be insignificant .... I'll give you that, but .... this mechanism has experienced nuisance trips due to wet wood, pressure treated lumber, hitting a brad nail, a screw, (no history on laminates) .... what about aluminum frames? Vinyl insets into wood frames? Blade nut loosening. Blade wobbles enough to hit minimum clearance table insert. Doesn't universally work with dado sets, molding heads, etc ... and it's not on your radial arm saw or chop saw, so be aware.
In a secondary school or trade school setting, I think it might have it's place, but let us not forget ..... If you become dependent on a special feature such as this, instead of focusing on the work and process at hand, expecting the machine to compensate for a wondering mind or distraction, what happens when you move over to the jig saw, or band saw, or radial arm saw, or lathe, or pick up the skill saw, or walk over to the power miter saw??
Give me the basics first, and minimize all distractions. Please ..... new purchasers .... do not depend on this single device to compensate for your inexperience .... . Like defensive driving, think through every operation you prepare to perform, imagining each and everything that might go wrong, resequence or replan the operation to eliminate each one. Do not get in a hurry. A stubby or missing finger or thumb is NOT a badge one wears proudly
For now, I welcome all the reports and information as this system evolves. Whether or not it belongs in every shop is a question yet to be answered, but not championed nor debated in this forum, .... please.
John in Texas
As I understand it, the cost of a new cartridge is about $60 and if the blade was damaged, the cost of the blade. SO FAR they have been good about free replacements with false trips - only asking for the old one back for analysis.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
"Finally went into saw business on his own (or some partnership ... bla, bla, bla" Wow, you gave this part of the procession pretty short shrift! I did not agree with the mandate approach either, so we're together on that one. But I have great respect for his/their persistance and resourcefulness in taking the idea into the private, unmandated market and getting the saw produced. That is a one-in-a-million success story. 99.99999% of people would have given up. I've heard enough stories of professionals getting injured, or nearly so, to believe that anyone has the potential to get hurt. Whether or not they choose to take advantage of this technology is, of course, up to them.
Near as I can tell, the only bad idea he had was to campaign for the mandate. That's water under the bridge, IMHO. Nobody's perfect.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
forestgirl,
keep up the 'fight' for inventors. it's a very hard road. there is no clear route to take; wrong turns, detours, etc. it's even harder when you go after the 'holy grail' of the woodshop, the table saw.
the table saw might go the way of the radial arm saw, not extinction, but it will lose its distinction. there are better guided rails being invented now, soon there will be be better circular saws.
the interesting thing with inventors is their 'next' creation. many times it's the second brainstorm that brings the crowds. what's next for mr. gass?
i like to hear good opinions rather than distorted facts any day.
go for it.
j
I suspect when people (including me) got up in arms about him trying to get the SS mechanism mandated, many of them uttered the words "Put your money where you mouth is." Well! Son of a gun, he did just that!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
yea, i think he made a wrong turn with the mandate thing. i think it may have been jazz's idea for reduced ins. prem's. i like that. anyway, gass is earning his keep now. jericho
forestgirl,
Yes he did! I just got back from the AWFS Fair in las Vegas, and I had a chance to look at a lot of new tools. One of the best things I looked at was the SawStop contractor and cabinet saws.I got an opportunity to look inside and out on the SawStop saws. I also watched a demo (yes, the hot dog). I spoke with Mr. Gass, the developer of these tools, and told him that I was very happy that someone just went ahead and developed a safer tool. Good for him!Let me say this: the blade brake is just one of the many things that the SawStop saws have that is new and great. The saws come with very nice riving knives (real ones). The fences are heavy and smooth. The blade-height and beveling mechanisms are extremely smooth, with hardly any backlash that I could detect. The saws are built to be solid. Over all, they make a strong impression. I know these are show models, so I can't predict longevity. But if I saw these machines in a store, I would feel confident enough to buy one.I wish SawStop all luck in bringing their machines to market.
Sounds like he took advantage of the situation to make several improvements over the common North American saw and did a great job, improvements (especially the riving knife) that many WWers have been clamoring for for some time now!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I suspect that if the only new feature SawStop saws had was the riving knife, reviewers would be falling all over themselves to sing their praises. Even at that price.
In graduate school, I learned not to put more than one original idea in any paper because the reviewers could not handle it. I wonder if there is some of that.
Regards,
Dan
Cajun Dan,
Good points!I have been hopeful about the SawStop efforts even before I went to the AWFS Fair. But after seeing their machines up close, I really am hoping they can cause a positive ripple effect in the table saw world.I agree that they are biting off a few pieces at once -- a riving knife, a heavier machine, better fence, and a blade brake -- rather than just introducing a single innovation. However, I can see whay they are doing things this way. If all they did was add a blade brake, I think a lot of people would be saying, "That's great, but to really address safety you need to do something about kickback." So they decided to go after the twin peaks of table saw safety, which are amputation and kickback. To me, it shows that they are thinking about safety in the larger sense, not just touting a neat new invention.Not only that, but in my conversations at the AWFS Fair I got a good personal feeling about the inventor. Of course they want to make money. But my radar tells me that they are being honest about a mission.
Edited 8/1/2005 12:17 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
If SawStop is bringing a quality unit to the marketplace, even before considering the innovative saftey feature, then more power to them. Thirty five hundred bucks is not too much to pay if the quality is there. The added safety is gravy.
I'd emphasize the fact that first and foremost the unit is an industrial grade tablesaw (assuming it truly is) with an added attractive safety feature. My impression of their earlier advertising, with the hot dog and all, was all about the safety feature and not as much about the saw.
I'd be looking for a Baldor motor, beefy well-machined trunion, a well machined, seasoned cast iron top, a quality combo blade as standard equipment (CMT Forest), ergonomics and safety on the switches, and of course a great bombproof fence. If a saw has all this then serious shops will be interested regardless of the blade brake.In today's climate, with quality generally regarded as dropping with the major manufacturers, a sound offering ought to get some attention. I believe they should have gone a completely different direction with the name of the unit. Still too much emphasis on the bloody brake and too much of a hangover from their anemic marketing efforts from a few years back.
Edited 8/1/2005 8:46 pm ET by Stanford
Bump.
"I agree that they are biting off a few pieces at once -- a riving knife, a heavier machine, better fence, and a blade brake -- rather than just introducing a single innovation. However, I can see whay they are doing things this way." It totally refreshing, IMHO. My "institutional memory" is telling me that many forum members, here and elsewhere, have been clamoring for better quality in general, and a riving knife in particular, for quite a long time. So many manufacturers will introduce improvements one at a time so they can dribble them in with "new and improved" hype over a period of years. My attitude is: Make it right in the first place, will ya?!! Of course, with tools it's a bit more expensive to add things in one at a time. I may never own a Saw Stop saw, but I'm sure glad it's available and that it is, apparently, a high quality machine.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
forestgirl,
I'm one of those people who has clamored for the better safety equipment. As a matter of fact, my passion about this matter (like some others) has gotten me into trouble at times.Anyway, when I believe in something, I REALLY believe in something. That's why I specifically spent time with the SawStop inventor at AWFS to tell him what a great job he's doing and to wish him all the best in his efforts, and to tell other people at the show to make sure they go and see the SawStop booth! And of course, I also now have one of their hats.It will be very interesting to see what happens here. For so long, defenders of North American tool manufacturers have been defending the lack of riving knives by saying that the cost would be so high nobody would by them. Notice that the manufacturers themselves were essentially mum about their reasons, which makes sense, since I doubt they wanted to say publicly that they were CHOOSING not to add better safety out of cost concerns.Here's my preduiction. SawStop will get excellent reviews in the magazines. Even with the added price, they will sell a lot of saws, and people will rave about the new safety features. It will start a buzz about the classic "safety costs too much" defense. At that point, one by one, North American manufacturers will try to play catch-up and develop these safety features in their saws.
"And of course, I also now have one of their hats." Oh man, now you've gone and done it! Too funny.
"...prediction. SawStop will get excellent reviews in the magazines. Even with the added price, they will sell a lot of saws, and people will rave about the new safety features. It will start a buzz about the classic "safety costs too much" defense. At that point, one by one, North American manufacturers will try to play catch-up and develop these safety features in their saws." I'll join you and look forward to it happening. It's sad that Jet, Delta et al. need this kind of motivation to make an improvement and that they don't have enough faith in their consumers to have made the move (riving knife) themselves and then sold it on the basis of being safer and better than the old splitter system.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FYI ALL,
Wood mag has a test review ( from using one in their shop sine 11/2004 ) and includes an interesting tidbit. If you are not sure if the wood is too wet (or using brass or aluminum) and think it might trip the brake, if you have the saw plugged in but turned off, you can touch the material to the blade and check the diagnostic lights on the power switch. If they show it will trip the brake, you can temporarily override the safety system and when done with the material re-engage it.
They also tested with hot dogs, various blade engaugements with good results.
This is the Oct 2005 issue.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Yes, one of the responses above indicated that the safety system can be turned off temporarily.
I had been aware of that, but the part that I thought was great whas being able to read the lights and see if the material would trip the brake and then being able to disenage it or run it if it was deemed safe - less chance of causing the brake to trip by accident1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Thanks for posting that info!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
> In a secondary school or trade school setting ...
That seems like the best place to begin with. This thing is kinda like training wheels. It gives the students a much less costly -- but not free -- lesson if they make a mistake.
-- J.S.
New cartridge is about $60.00. I don't think anyone will let their guard down just because it's a Sawstop. And no the technology isn't any more reason to give an experienced user to operate a saw in a laissez faire manner. I don't drive my car dangerously close to another car just because I have the advantage of airbags, nor do they teach student drivers (I hope) that they can just put the car in drive and forget about the rest.
Sawstop is a backup safety device to catch the user should a slip of the hand, finger, whatever occur.
Not trying to give you a hard time or anything jazzdogg but...You're complaining about the cost of a replacement cartridge + blade that equals 100-200 a pop. Is that "price" really a concern if it means that you keep your finger(s) and/or other body parts connected and working properly? Put things in perspective and the cartridge/blade cost is cheap, regardless of the occasional misfire. Just my 1 cent :OZ
And even if you only need a few stitches - not losing anything- how much is the Dr. and emergency room bill? More than the cartridge and a blade by far.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I'm setting up a CO-OP shop and for these very reasons, I have ordered 2 sawstops. The bill for 2 delivered with some extra cartriges, 5hp motors and the 50" fence is just about $7000. I know I could have found some great used saws at a much better price, but being able to sleep better at night knowing that somebody is not going to loose a finger while I'm away from the shop is priceless. Yep - it;s more expensive than anything comparable, but it is a bargain.
how much is the Dr. and emergency room bill?
$9200, to reattach my right index finger from the top knuckle up. Miter box, not a table saw.
Zombeerose,
Not complaining, just doing a little research before investing.
Considering the cost of a SawStop cabinet saw, the cost of a replacement blade and cartridge is, indeed, a relatively small expenditure.
Sorry if I sounded a little too excited,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
It never occurred to me that my insurance would pay anything. So far I am out one blade, the original Delta 24 tooth rip blade that used on my Unisaw, and one cartridge. SawStop isn't really obligated to pay for any of this so I am not complaining.
"It never occurred to me that my insurance would pay anything."
Fit & Cut,
I was thinking more along the lines of a reduction in insurance premiums commensurate with the increase workshop safety provided by the SawStop.
Couldn't hurt to explain the SawStop system to your carrier(s) and see what they say; if it doesn't reduce your medical premiums, perhaps they'll consider a reduction in liability or worker's comp premiums.
Who knows, if one were to consider the cost of a new cartridge & blade as imputed savings in medical coverage, perhaps an insurer would be willing to trade the cost of cartidges and blades for the cost of premiums.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 7/26/2005 10:01 pm ET by jazzdogg
Jazzdog,
A reduction in premiums? By an insurance company? LOL
At some point, when the data gets collected, the insurance companies might strongly motivate professionals to upgrade to SawStop by threatening cancellation or jacking premiums through the roof. In any event, insurance premiums are only part of the puzzle.
Assuming that excessive misfiring doesn't prove to be an issue, I suspect that the professional shop can justify SawStop based on TCO. But, as far as I can tell, their marketing people haven't done a good job selling TCO. Instead, they've been selling public health benefits. Their web site talks about CPSC reports: 60K tablesaw injuries, 3K amputations, and $2B in injury related costs, per year. That's nice background, especially when you're trying to get a regulatory mandate, but it does a lousy job selling to the customer. For the professional they should be able to demonstrate expected TCO savings based on all of the costs of an incident in a professional setting: lost productivity (everybody comes running when Jim cuts his finger off), somebody driving him to the ER, WC insurance rate increases, and the fine imposed by the OSHA inspector. These are just some thoughts -- their marketing people ought to go talk to shops and extract some real numbers. The TCO argument for the hobbyist isn't too hard to make either. Walking through the door at the ER is $250; it goes up rapidly from there if they actually do anything for you. Need a hand surgeon? Add a zero and then some. Have good insurance? Great. What's your out of pocket limit? BTW, you forked over $600 for side curtain airbags on your last car...
OK, I'm starting to rant. As you can see, I don't think that their marketing guys are doing a great job -- if they were, there wouldn't be so much debate. Or maybe they have done their job and the TCO argument is a complete bust and they're left with "feel good" marketing...
Doc,
I hear you loud & clear.
For the benefit off all of the folks who visit this forum, your arguments may be slightly more persuasive if you define your acronyms as you use them.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
TCO - Total Cost of Ownership
CPSC - Consumer Product Safety Commission
BTW - By The Way
ER - Emergency Room
WC - Workers' Comp (or 'bathroom' in Europe)
OSHA - Occupation Safety and Health Administration
I think I got them all. ;)
Edited 7/27/2005 4:30 am ET by BarryO
How about:
LOL and OK. OK is a hard one.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Thanks Barry.
Best regards,--DocOtter
jazz,
did you ever see that movie "Tucker: the man and his dream"? anyway, his new car had seat belts, disc brakes, etc. detroit tried to squash this upstart. they eventually did, but several years later they incorporated his safety features into their cars.
this SawStop saga has the same ring to it. Keep up the fight sawstop. mr. gass we like pulling for the underdog. j
I like the way you think, Jazzdogg. If you ever start your own insurance company, let know. I'll be your first customer.
Fit & Cut,
In the corporate world it usually worked just the way I described - only in reverse!
The insurance company would, in effect, say "implement the following safety protocols, or we'll jack up your premiums!"
I think it's likely that if/when SawStop establishes its credibility with insurance companies, the insurers will mandate "ordinary" tablesaws be replaced in order to avoid costly premium increases.
Insurance companies thrive by maximizing their assets (and asset ratios); premiums are just one of the tools they use to leverage their assets: the insured parties seem to amount to little more than speedbumps in their path to profitability.
Sawdust in your shoes,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
We have two Sawstops in our shop. Being in an educational setting it was a no-brainer to have them installed. I don't think the saws are really that expensive when you consider what you get for the money. I think we paid something $2,700 a piece including shipping to Ohio. We bought the 10" cabinet saw outfitted with 50" fence and table, extra brake cartridge and the 5hp-3ph motor. Compared to a similarily equipped Powermatic 66 The price difference really isn't that much more when you consider the features you get for the money.
I must agree with you since I bought one, but my cost including shipping to Louisiana was about $3,400. The shipping was outrageous. It would have cost even more, but I picked the saw up at the shipper's local dock. I think that if I had been a business, the shipping would have been less. I am including the cost of the long table, two cartridges (one for an 8" dado blade) and two extra throat inserts.
Why are you wired in to the SawStop folks? I thought your operation was all Grizzly.
Oh, Stanford, you're so clever, aren't you? I have an opinion -- is that a problem for you?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Clever seems like an odd choice of words. I just thought you were a dyed-in-the-wool Grizzly junky. Pardon the pun.
Stanford, I hesitate to say this but why don't back off bit and think of how you can participate in a dialogue rather than making cynical comments.
I also hesitate to respond to your criticism of Forestgirl but even thought I have never met her or talked with her, I have developed some opinions of my own.
1. She is extremely helpful to many who ask about using this forum with their computers. How to post pictures, research, etc.
2. She is a fan of grizzly but also praises other brands. Don't we all have favorites?
3. Even though she sometimes is in error IMHO in her posts, never have her opinions put anyone in danger. I once made a mistake also. :-)
4. After you have been on Knots for a while, hopefully you will mature to the point that others will start to read your posts rather than skip them.
But since you are a newbie, all is forgiven. Keep reading and learning and most of all--Be polite. Otherwise, join the cafe.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I didn't criticize her. I simply wondered why she's been bird-dogging SawStop since day one when she has a shop full of Grizzly equipment and is one of their most ardent advocates on this forum.
Frankly, I think it's a fair question. Does she plan to dump her beloved Grizzly for a SawStop unit?
This is not criticism. It's curiosity.
FWIW, I've been on Knots for years. A faux pas during FW's recent 're-registration' process resulted in the new name.
CStan
Edited 7/30/2005 8:28 am ET by Stanford
CStan, you've given away your lack of knowledge now. I have 1 (one) Grizzly machine, the 1019Z bandsaw. Other manufacturers represented are Jet (table saw, jointer and dust collector), Delta (planer), Porter Cable (routers, of course), Freud (router) and Craftsman (old belt/disc sander). If I had some extra dough, I'd probably pick up the 1023S cabinet saw, but don't really need it.
What you refuse to acknowledge in these tedious discussions is that I bring attention to the Grizzly line when it seems a more sensible way to go monetarily. More bang to the buck as it were. Of course your knee-jerk and poorly founded prejudice against this manufacturer prevents you from seeing anything but the negative about their machines.
Your "bird-dogging" comment is pretty funny. If you enjoy making up these little scenarios in your head and believing them, fine. Doesn't really bother me (other than it's kinda redundant) and it's apparent most other Knotheads are seeing through the smoke screen you try to create. I get the distinct impression that you simply can't handle someone being positive and supportive rather than negative and caustically critical about anything. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the aura that's left behind most of the time.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 7/31/2005 12:34 pm ET by forestgirl
Re: StanfordI'm glad he fessed up. He has been around here since forever, and I know of three different "handles" he has used during that time. I think of him as an acerbic, supercilious curmudgeon -- sitting up there on his high perch shooting his arrows, and skewering posters whenever he can think of something nasty to contribute (which is often).Like great artists whose work always has a distinctive style, you can always pick Charles' posts from a thread -- no matter what name he is using. On the other hand, Charles can be a great source of information when he wants to be (which is not often).********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
On the other hand, Charles can be a great source of information when he wants to be (which is not often).
I started a couple of threads recently that I thought were really great ("An Article Worth Reading" and "Yet Another Article Worth Reading"). Nikki, you would probably like these threads. Bull$hit threads about Grizzly and Sawstop will go to 100 posts or more. I'm thoroughly convinced that most people who take up woodworking never stop shopping for equipment.
Then we have Jamie who reliably shows up in every thread about Grizzly taking on anybody who might have had a bad experience. She can go on and on about how great their customer service is without ever realizing that most woodworkers would prefer not to get to know a company's customer service and parts department. Or at least not well.
I would add that if one's biggest thrill in woodworking is the equipment one owns or contemplating the next equipment purchase or some new saw that's coming out then something is wrong. Go buy some wood, some really nice wood, and build something stunning. If you're worried about losing a finger in a tablesaw then rip a board by hand and see if you like it.
I can't remember the last time I bought a tool. The last tool transaction I had was giving two Disston hand saws to one of the other participants here.
CS,
i make my living selling tools. at least i try to make almost as much as the kids spend. anyway, if you don't like the flavor of the thread, pick another thread. with a lot of people getting into woodworking, it's natural to talk about the 'toys'. there are a bunch of people who missed shop class, and the're not real sure about us 'slick' sales people. then they look at the assortment of tools available and it's info overload.
it's the attitude of the post that either creates common ground or a mudhole.
a little mudslinging is fun. just don't get ticked when it comes flying back.
jericho
An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. ...will rogers
Edited 7/30/2005 8:14 pm ET by jericho
<<"I can't remember the last time I bought a tool.">>Well, that's part of the problem. I would guess that, at any givens time, maybe 60-70% of the people participating in Knots are here because they are relatively new to woodworking -- and still very much in the throes of trying to figure out how to do stuff, which machines to buy, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think you are forgetting what a good resource Knots would have been for you, lo those many years ago, when you were at a similar stage. And, I also think it was beyond the pale to pull out your guns and start blasting away at Jaime. She never overblows her skills and talents (as so many others do around here); she is always upbeat, encouraging, and helpful. Maybe most important, she has become the "institutional memory" for Knots. She reads and absorbs all this stuff, and is very adept at synthesizing information spread over 10's of threads -- or pointing to a given thread from the archives that would be especially useful. I count all this as a great asset to the forum. Now, there are a few people around that I think warrant your attention -- as far as pulling out your big guns is concerned.............................I did indeed see your "article" threads; one I couldn't open, but I read through the comments anyway. Your question was why won't these more serious wwing topics generate the same response rate as the endless tool threads.If my brain were a 4 cylinder engine, I generally breeze through this forum functioning on 1-2 of those cylinders. For me, spare time spent here is less boring than watching TV, less taxing than reading a book -- so it's about on a par with skimming a newspaper. Thus, I'm comfortable with reading (i.e. "lurking"), but participating (i.e. posting) requires more effort -- assuming my knowledge/experience is at a level where I think I may have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion. Sometimes I am up to it in terms of energy/knowledge, but too often I am either too ignorant and/or tired. I suspect there are many others in this same boat -- which keeps the post count low. ********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
...too kind, too kind. When we re-reg for the new system, I think I'll be Yoda. :-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If you were buying a new machine do you think the opinions you would get on this or any other forum would be objective?
A lot of people pipe up with an opinion when they themselves are relatively new to woodworking and have owned no other brands and have little if any history in the craft. That fact is not prominently disclosed a lot of the time and I believe that's a disservice to those about to spend money.
If I'm about to spend money I want war stories and warts exposed. Ooohhhinng and aaaahhhhing wouldn't do me a lot of good. No company is perfect, but I want to know what my downside risk is.
Two comments:First, one of the things I like most about Knots is that, for the most part, everyone is anonymous. In ordinary communication one's credentials/experience add (or subtract) weight from his/her credibility. Around here, credibility comes solely from the words written on the keyboard. Over time, you get a feel for who makes sense -- and who doesn't. I realize I may be the only one, but for me this lends a subtle, almost entertaining dimension to the process of figuring out who to believe.Second, I am not at all bothered by the "Ooohhhinng and aaaahhhhing" that goes on when it comes to machines. Behind every purchase, there is a decision making process, and by the time the machine comes into the shop, I assume the user is convinced they made "the right" decision and now have the "best" machine. That's human nature. But I still find it useful to know something about the how/why of that process. And then of course, there are a few folks who are very frank and open in discussing the aspects (of the machine) they don't like. So for me, I'll take all the info, commentary, and feedback I can get -- and I'm comfortable ferreting out my version of the truth from this pile of often disparate opinion.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Nikki that all sounds really nice but you should turn your attention to the phrase "give me the lowdown." Everybody knows what a tablesaw ought to do. Again, I would be more interested in knowing my downside, the lowdown, the dirt, before I bought. Are the weaknesses longevity, motor, surface flatness, general quality of machining, etc.?
I don't have a problem with somebody saying they have a Grizzly tool and it works great. What I do have a problem with is somebody arguing with another poster when they relate an outcome not so favorable. Or even arguing when a poster comes on specifically looking for the lowdown, dirt, and downside before writing a check.
For whatever reason, Forestgirl and some others feel compelled to attempt to refute people's bad experiences with Grizzly. This is absurd because if a tool did an uacceptable job for a buyer then it did an unacceptable job. These threads usually turn into a pi$$ing match about how the matter should have been handled with customer service and this is completely ridiculous. One wonders what the vested interest is beyond simply being somebody who owns a couple of Grizzly tools.
I don't recall ever having had an overwhelming compulsion to defend a brand and don't understand the psychology behind that. Everybody puts out some clunkers. Some more than others and some problems are more difficult to handle given constraints provided by the distribution channel.
Stanford,
Even though I have clearly stated my issues with Grizzly, I do understand why Forestgirl is supportive of the company. She had good experiences and wants to talk about that, just like I want to talk about my positive experiences with Festool. From her perspective, it doesn't make sense that I would have such a bad experience with Grizzly, just like I often can't imagine anyone having a bad experience with Festool.We are woodworkers, and woodworking is an intimate practice -- we get close and personal with the craft. We all feel strongly, one way or the other, about the tools we rely on to achieve our goals. If the tools are great for us, we are elated; when the tools fail, it means a lot to us.In the end, I think it is beneficial for both the positive and negative opinions to be voiced, to provide a multitude of angles, so we can get a full and honest picture. This is what makes the online tool reviews better than the magazines.The bottom line for me is this -- whether positive or negative, have you provided information that a person can actually use to make a decision?
I think we learned either in this thread or perhaps another that FG has exactly one Grizzly machine - a bandsaw. Apparently, she owns more Jet equipment than she does Grizzly equipment. I think she's running a Jet tablesaw.
Presumably, her Grizzly saw worked well 'out-of-the-box'. She owns one machine and it works well. Great. I'll let you check the archives regarding FG and Grizzly posts, if you care to, and you can tell me if something seems a little disproportional in her advocacy of the brand vs. her actual ownership of the brand.
Edited 8/1/2005 9:03 pm ET by Stanford
"I think we learned either in this thread or perhaps another ..." Most of the people who email me from the board here learned of my tool brands over a wide number of posts and a long period of time. The fact that this information escaped you is certainly not due to any deception on my part, LOL!! See also: Matthews concept of "institutional memory." If you choose to spend some of your valuable time reviewing my Grizzly posts, I'm pretty sure you'll also find that I make it clear I'm relaying info from other users, I often refer the reader to Frenchy, who has several Grizzly machines, and occasionally (if I remember) I'll refer the reader to the Sysop-initiated thread about Grizzly.
If members of the board do not pay enough attention to detail and make unfounded assumptions about my stable of tools, that's not my problem. You'll also find that I don't try to talk someone who's asking about "MiniMax vs. Laguna" or "Felder vs. MiniMax" into a Grizzly. And, last but not least, you'll observe that some machines of theirs I wouldn't waste time considering. Selective memory is really distorting your story here, Cstan.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Look honey here's the deal. The *other* thread in question asked about a Grizzly TABLESAW. You don't own one and I don't believe have ever used one.
Bottom line - you're talking out of your bee-hind.
charlie, you just stepped in it. you're trying to prove the intelligence of your mind while revealing another part of your anatomy.
what's your objective? qualify everyone's opinion? you just changed or solidified a lot of opinions.
jericho
Look, if you haven't used a particular piece of equipment you shouldn't be opining on it.
It's just that simple.
charles,
that's where you have to sift through the; " I saw it at a show", "my friend has one", "I heard on another forum", "the magazine said", or even "I tried it once".
the only tool I know that you really have is a computer. for the rest of the story I have to trust you.
keep posting, keep sifting, we might make it through this thing.
jericho
jericho,
We're in total agreement here. The currency of a forum like this is trust. If it works, it can be better than magazine reviews. However, if people are not forthright about their real knowledge, then a forum like this becomes less valuable than magazines.Any review, positive or negative, needs to state clearly the reviewer's knowledge, but also the limit to his or her experiences. We all have our limitations, and they are as important as our knowledge to anyone who is trying to make use of our tool reviews.I trashed a Grizzly drill press, but I am quick to point out which model it is and the fact that that's my whole experience with Grizzly. People can take my viewpoint or leave it, but I believe they know honestly where I'm coming from.The same goes for positive reviews. I said how much I love my Ridgid benchtop table saw, but I was quick to point out that it is my first saw. With Festool, I have compared the tools directly to other manufacturers. Finally, with SawStop, I have no problem making sure people know my experiences are based on physical inspection, with no actual usage.As you said, anyone can join this forum and plaster opinions.
matt, you're a word merchant, and that's a compliment. you paint a good picture of what you're thinking. many people can see what's in their mind, but they have a hard time saying it. that's why you get paid for it.
the posts, no matter how true and how detail, still are just experiences from the past. you search the files with a mouse, and you sift the piles with a pitch fork.
I once asked a customer about their key strengths.( they're a woodworking store) their strenth is teaching and training. what's your market? mostly older men. hmmm. you're trying to teach and train a group who doesn't like to read or listen. how do you do it? we get them out of trouble one time.
some of us come here to get out of trouble, some to get in it.
jericho
Edited 8/2/2005 9:30 am ET by jericho
While you are largely correct, I think that it's possible for a sentient human being to refrain from opining about a piece of equipment one has never owned or even used.
I have used a Grizzly tablesaw in a commercial environment. Not a drill press and not a bandsaw. A tablesaw, the quality of which is the question the original poster put to the forum in the other thread.
The only piece of Grizzly equipment I have owned was a small benchtop mortiser that came with a lot of other equipment I bought at auction from a shop that closed. It actually worked reasonably well although expectations were appropriately low.
If I were in the market for a new power tool, I would not consider the Grizzly brand. I think there is better equipment to be had, for the money, both used and new.
What else can I do for you?
Edited 8/2/2005 9:06 am ET by Stanford
charles,
"What else can I do for you?", well you just taught me a new word, 'sentient'. thanks.
where I come from, the landing on the moon was fake, professional wrestling is for real, and Elvis is alive. I'll see how sentient goes over.
thanks charles,
jericho
"where I come from, the landing on the moon was fake, professional wrestling is for real, and Elvis is alive. I'll see how sentient goes over." Great line! Which Carolina do you hail from? My family's from N.C. and the three years I spent there as a child were the happiest of my life!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
fg,
we live near charlotte, but each area of the carolinas has its own unique flavor. haven't had a chance to try out my new word yet.
thanks,
jericho
I was very young (~7yrs old) when I lived there and wasn't very aware of the flat-earth people. My grandfather bought a farm when he retired, and I spent time there fishing in the pond, picking corn, melons, grapes and other goodies, feeding the chickens and such. He lived in a very modern house, but the family down the road, including my best girlfriend, had no indoor plumbing and still plowed with a mule! It was quite a contrast. I'm sure that's all gone now, probably developed for retirees like my older sister and her hubby.
Take care and enjoy!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
fg,
the chickens live in bigger houses now. the mules turned green and yellow, we call them Deere's now. we still have quite a few dirt roads left. the cities have six-lane highways, but it's still two-lane rednecks riding on them.
I like the place, it's a sentient thing.
jericho
(I don't have a good handle on that word yet. )
Edited 8/2/2005 1:48 pm ET by jericho
here is an article that appeared in Inc.7/05. it paints the full picture of the sawstop story. it's a long read, but it gives some insight as to the road they have taken.
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html
jericho
Excellent, Jericho! Thanks for the link. For those who need a teaser to get interested, read this (it is reminiscent of the aforementioned auto safety issues):
The complete story is fascinating and well worth reading. The testimonials are simply icing on the cake (in the paragraph that starts "So for now, ....).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 8/8/2005 9:25 pm ET by forestgirl
fg,
we were wondering why he went the mandate route. they kicked sand (sawdust) in his face. and being a lawyer, it was only natural to strike back in that fashion. i like the story, i just wish i could speed it up to see how it turns out.
i just finished reading a piece on Ron Hickman, the inventor of the 'workmate'. B&D turned him down at first. he was willing to sell for less than $250,000. he said "when you come back it will costs you more." the best i can figure is he has made a 3% royalty on about $25 million a year for 30 years? don't quote me on the details. just suffice it say, he's living large in his castle.
jericho
Mr. Gass is a lawyer, right? I guess you can take the attorney out of the courtroom, but you can't take the courtroom out of the attorney...
With the big tool companies declining to participate, SawStop is seeking other ways to make sure its technology is adopted. In April 2003, the company filed a petition with the Consumer Product Safety Commission to make SawStop-like technology standard on all table saws.
Edited 8/9/2005 9:56 am ET by BossCrunk
Your snippet probably should have included the emphasized portion below:
Then Dan Lanier, national coordinating counsel for Black & Decker, stepped to the podium. His topic: “Evidentiary Issues Relating to SawStop Technology for Power Saws.” Lanier spent the next 30 minutes discussing a hypothetical lawsuit—in which a plaintiff suing a power-saw manufacturer contended the saw was defective because it did not incorporate SawStop’s technology—and suggesting ways defense counsel might respond. Lanier recalls it as a rather dry exploration of legal issues. Gass heard something different. To his ears, Lanier’s message was this: If we all stick together and don’t license this product, the industry can argue that everybody rejected it so it obviously wasn’t viable, thereby limiting any legal liability the industry might face as a result of the new technology. (Lanier denies this was his point.)
"The CPSC is expected to release its findings this summer. If it states, as Gass hopes and expects, that the technology is effective, it will be the first step in a long process of making SawStop—or a similar injury-prevention system—mandatory. "
Gass believes that Sullivan’s cases are only the tip of the iceberg. "The legal standard says you have to make a product as safe as you reasonably can, and if you fail to do that, you’re going to be responsible,” he says. While Gass wants SawStop to be successful financially, he also admits that what began as an interesting physics problem in his workshop has become something of a crusade. “This is important to society and that responsibility weighs on me,” he says. “It would have been so much easier if the manufacturers had just licensed this. Then, having SawStop would be just like having a stereo with Dolby or running shorts with Gore-Tex.” Indeed, Gass still dreams of getting out of manufacturing altogether.
I wonder how current SawStop owners would receive this news? I guess it would be like buying a new Delta tablesaw and then finding out they were quitting business. Or at least it has the potential for that kind of disappointment.The more I learn about the company and its principals the less excited I get.
Edited 8/9/2005 9:55 am ET by BossCrunk
Edited 8/9/2005 11:22 am ET by BossCrunk
You should have put an emphasis on the word "crusade" -- he's fired up about this, wants to see it available to all of us at a competitive price, and that's a good thing. The fact that he's motivated by that type of energy means, IMHO, he's in it for the long run now. My guess is, he'll build this company to strong competitor in the industry and if he wants to "get out" he'll sell it and retire fat and happy, and woodworkers will have a high quality saw with an excellent safety feature available to them, should they choose it.
None of this "mandatory" stuff would have come up if the big companies hadn't tried to kill the product early on. That kind of arrogance and shortsightedness really p|sses me off! They wouldn't/couldn't see a big, huge profit advantage in adding the feature, so they mobbed up and tried to kill it. They could have taken an entirely different route had they had our interests in mind, and the SS feature would be at least an option on virtually every saw made.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
This man is, in essence, litigating to make a 'SawStop-like' device (close enough to be covered by his patent I'm sure) mandatory on all tablesaws. Whatever came before that is of little consequence to end-users.
My guess is, he'll build this company to strong competitor in the industry
Really? With what? Another me-too Taiwanese offering except for the the SawStop device? It'll take more than that to be a 'strong competitor' in the industry.
Mr. Gass, a lawyer, knows that a positive action by the CPSC will open a floodgate of litigation by those injured by tablesaws after the SawStop became commercially viable. He is counting on this to force manufacturers to license the technology and when they do he'll shut down his manufacturing operation and cut a fat hog.
This is rich, the very manufacturers he is basically trying to extort into licensing his product are supposed to buy him out after he becomes a 'strong competitor.' Can you mail me some of that stuff you're smoking?
By the time this plays out people will be cutting wood with laser beams and tablesaws with be as quaint as a double-ended match plane.
Edited 8/9/2005 3:46 pm ET by BossCrunk
"Another me-too Taiwanese offering except for the the SawStop device?" It's obvious from this statement alone that you haven't bothered to inform yourself about this saw. End of discussion for me, a waste of time.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"Another me-too Taiwanese offering except for the the SawStop device?" It's obvious from this statement alone that you haven't bothered to inform yourself about this saw. End of discussion for me, a waste of time.
The article mentioned a $2,500 price point for the cabinet saw and $800 for a contractor saw all built in Taiwan. This is a Delta/Jet/Powermatic saw with a safety device. I've seen the literature, I've seen the ads. I've bought, or have been responsible for purchasing, hundreds of thousands of dollars in woodworking machinery in my career. The only thing that differentiates this saw is the SawStop. My God, they even named a saw after the device (big mistake in my book).
Could this guy really be getting superb quality out of Taiwan, in less quantity, and selling it at or below D/J/P prices? I'd guess not unless he's taking a total bath. I mean a blood-bath. No doubt he's eating the SawStop device cost, that's pretty clear. I'm taking about the saw itself. He's effectively in litigation with the same bullies he expects to write him a big, fat check. Here's news - that's probably a big, fat mistake. He's going to need extraordinarily deep pockets to ride this one out. I'd bet the CPSC thing is a Hail Mary pass, at best. I'll give him this - it was the cheap route to go. Fill out the paperwork and mail it to Washington. Bingo, I'm a millionaire.
Fair Disclosure: I have not used the saw, I have not seen one first hand.
Have you?
More power to the guy if ultimately the saws sell like hotcakes and at a per unit profit. Nothing succeeds like success. However, the whole litigation, CPSC, mandatory thing is a non-starter with me. This guy is not much different than anybody else who wants to sue their way into being a millionaire. He's convinced the invention should make him a multi-millionaire but the marketplace so far has said no.
This fellow doesn't give me the struggling, little guy vibe. He was a patent and trademark attorney before he launched the SawStop deal right? Yep, that's a low-paying profession.
Edited 8/9/2005 3:52 pm ET by BossCrunk
It doesn't look like "a Delta/Jet/Powermatic saw with a safety device" to me. Have you looked at the photos on the website? It looks beefier, and while not terribly different in design, has several other features that differentiate it from them (I'd include Grizzly in the group) much more than they are from one another. The stop feature is probably less significant than the riving knife as a safety measure. The new Powermatic PM2000 will have a riving knife, finally. If that didn't happen 15 years ago, do you think it would have now without Sawstop?Gass probably brought suit in response to what he saw as underhanded tactics by the existing saw manufacturers, and while I can't imagine he thought it would work, he may figure that their responses now can be used against them later. You've made clear that you don't like Gass's tactics and won't buy one. That's a reasonable position, but I'm rooting for him.
It is a decent looking saw, but you're asking me to believe he can order these from Taiwan, in comparatively miniscule quantities, with better quality, with the SawStop device, and sell it for the same price as Delta and Jet sell theirs? Like I said above, he has to be loosing his a$$. I suppose we should take advantage of his largesse, if not enthusiastic stupidity, and get one.
I'm not buying the correlation between the SawStop riving knife and Powermatic adding one.
Underhanded tactics? Maybe. I guess a case could be made that they basically told Gass to screw himself. This industry is having enough trouble being profitable as it is without having to raise price points on saws because of this device, good idea or not.
Besides that, there are some real problems with the essential statement that's being made - "we've made the tablesaw safe" You can bet good money there is some nimrod, somewhere, who can figure out a way to cut fingers off, SawStop or not.
To my way of thinking, this saw represents a quantum leap in the implicit statement that's being made about its safetey vs. a saw with the standard complement of guards. This is problematic even if it's not necessarily fair that it's problematic. If this baby fails in the field it's Katie Bar the Door. And it will fail in the field. If the shuttle can crash, with the mind-numbing amount of redundancy engineered into it, then this thing can and will fail. And probably at a rate that will delight the personal injury bar.
It also sounds as if the problem of wet wood has yet to be solved. Maybe I missed an update on that or a section in the article dealing with that.
Edited 8/9/2005 5:16 pm ET by BossCrunk
"there is some nimrod, somewhere, who can figure out a way to cut fingers off, SawStop or not."
I like that, Boss. It reminds me of the stock phrase, "You can allegedly make it idiot proof, but there's always a dumber idiot, ha, ha."
I've been unable to get onto the internet for nearly a fortnight due to technical problems with my ISP, and when I do manage to access it via the temporary connection I'm on now I find this gem of a thread, ha, ha--ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
I don't recall anyone or any literature from the company stating they made the tablesaw safe. In fact on the contrary, They explicitly state users can still get severe injuries from this saw.
Of course it isn't fool-proof nobody said it was. And as you mentioned nothing ever is fool-proof. Do car manufacturers get sued all the time when airbags fail? Do airplane manufacturers get sued whenever one of their planes go down?
I've mentioned this before earlier in the thread, all the Sawstop product does (besides put another high quality saw on the market) is provide another layer of safety should a slip of the hand occur. So far I've read several testimonials that confirm this and none that have reported the mechanism failed causing someone to slice there appendages off, but I'm sure it'll happen because the variables are infinite and impossible to forsee. Which means that in addition to having this technology users cannot let their guard down and rely totally on the saw to catch and save them from their mistakes. I wouldn't drive my car in a drunken stupor into a concrete wall at 50mph and count on the airbag and seatbelt to save me. Likewise I wouldn't rip 1/4" thick slices on the Sawstop without a pushstick and think that I could squeeze the material through the blade with my fingertips and if I did slip the brake would save me serious injury.
We have two Sawstops in our shop and I've been quite satisfied with the performance of the machines. The well thought out features alone are worth the money and whether they are taking a bath financially is between them and their investors. For all we know some company in Taiwan is giving them a good deal on manufacturing betting on the same horse that Steve Gass is. If Sawstop sells a million saws Steve won't be the only one laughing his way to the bank.
The well thought out features alone are worth the money and whether they are taking a bath financially is between them and their investors.
Really? As an owner of two of the machines you aren't the least bit disturbed by the portion of the article where Mr. Gass says he'd love to get out of manufacturing? It seems to me that's the endgame for Mr. Gass - a sweetheart licensing deal. I'm sure you presume that somebody will come along and continue to manufacture the saw and provide parts and cartridges but who knows.
They explicitly state users can still get severe injuries from this saw.
Well, that's cheery news indeed. Wonder if the major manufacturers said to themselves "then why bother?" From a surgical perspective, I wonder, is it better to cut something off cleanly or have it mangled about a third or half the way? Clean through the bone, or splintered all to hell bone? But wait, maybe the SawStop catches it before it gets to bone. Oh well, then maybe just nerves, muscle, tendons, and ligaments. See where this is going?
Do you outfit your saws with either aftermarket long infeed tables or shop-built units along with stock feeders? If the answer is no, then you're not doing all you could do.
Again, I would have to say that a simple set of stock feeders, along with using the saw only for the job it was designed, does as much or more to ensure worker safety than the SawStop. If you want the entire package that's fine, but then you have to count on Mr. Gass continuing his saw manufacturing business.
Edited 8/10/2005 8:21 am ET by BossCrunk
Well I guess whats the point of ever doing anything then if is less than 100% fool-proof? Why have hospitals if they aren't going to be 100% effective and save everyones life? Why have airbags if someone is still going to get hurt? Is it better to die in a car crash or be spared by the airbag only to live the rest of your life paralyzed from the head down. See where this is going?
It's rather presumptuous of you to assume that Mr. Gass's only motivation is a big payout especially when you don't even know him. And you assume the company IS Mr. Gass. Perhaps he will sell out his shares some day and strike it rich, so what. Isn't that the American Dream? It doesn't necessarily mean the demise of the company, there are other partners and shareholders that'll decide that. Go to the supermarket and see how many mom and pop brands are out there, maybe 100-200, 500? Not many in a see of 100,000 products on the shelves. Most were bought out a long time ago by some conglomerate, but the brand is still there, just owned by someone else.
It's also rather presumptuous for you to comment on my shop and safety when you don't even know me or have visited my shop or know about the work we do. Stock feeders may be a good solution for some applications but not in our situation or in the work we do.
Read the article about Mr. Gass, link provided in one of the posts above.
Tablesaws are ripping machines. You feed lumber into them to get narrower pieces. Anything much beyond that increases the inherent danger in using the machine.
Stock feeders, long in-feed (and out-feed) tables, some sort of splitter or riving knife, a blade guard, a fence set ever so slightly open on at the back of the saw, a trained, alert operator = a safe setup for ripping lumber. Whatever else it is you do with the units on your shop floor is between you, your employees, and your insurance carrier.
Edited 8/10/2005 9:56 am ET by BossCrunk
BC, 'the Boss ain't always right, but the Boss is always the Boss'. I would say that you've seen enough accidents, enough wrong methods, enough mfrs. going under, enough legislation (OSHA), that you see nothing but stark realities.
Here we tend to wax euphoric about new stuff. We have to. That's part of the enjoyment. Boss you just provide a reality check that makes us think just a little deeper.
think deep, cut shallow.
jericho
BossCrunk,
You wrote this:
"Fair Disclosure: I have not used the saw, I have not seen one first hand.
Have you?"Actually, I studied both models closely at the AWFS Fair, and not too far away in time or distance from Powermatic, Jet, Delta, and Grizzly. I did not use the SawStops at the show, of course, but my inspection told me they are heavier and smoother than the other saws.
Edited 8/9/2005 5:04 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Matthew,
you do come out swinging. it wasn't the green humor thing that got you fired up was it?
jericho
jericho,
Which green are we talking about here? Not all green is created equal you know. There is the darker, mossy kind of green; then there is the lighter more lime-like green. I like the mossy green when outdoors, but the lime green is much preferred in my shop. Then there is the green of envy, which can be the result of hearing good stories about either shade.More humor is definitely needed.
Edited 8/9/2005 7:06 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Matthew,
I guess it is the green of envy that keeps the home fires burning. It doesn't hurt the power tool sales either.
But it's that light shade that turns your crank. I believe the darker shade turns your stomach.
On the other hand, Mr. Gass needs some serious green.
that's enough of the color sheme,
jericho
Jericho,
Ah, both mossy and lime green are now flowing, having done their work to gain a following. The green that Mr. Gass is seeking is the deepest green of all. Or will he instead inspire deep shades of red?
the red shade of irate will linger,
the deep red of blood might flow.
he just hopes you keep your finger.
j
Actually, I studied both models closely at the AWFS Fair, and not too far away in time or distance from Powermatic, Jet, Delta, and Grizzly. I did not use the SawStops at the show, of course, but my inspection told me they are heavier and smoother than the other saws.
Then Gass has played his hand with the saw as a loss leader. He's got nothing left but the litigation or quasi-litigation at this point. No way he's making money on the saws.
BossCrunk,
I can't comment on the financial feasibility of Gass's venture. I can only say that the saws look like quality machinery to me.Who knows what will happen with SawStop. I personally hope it is successful, but I also hope that in a few years, SawStop will not be the only machine on the market with better safety features.
The saw looks good. I'll grant you that.
There are already safer alternatives but they come at a price and usually on higher end saws. Simply using a tablesaw as a dedicated rip machine and adding stock feeders ought to virtually eliminate severed digits. It did so in my operation. The blade can't cut something that never gets close to it. Substituting a piece of machinery for a workman's hands has more intuitive appeal to me than does tempting fate and the reliability of the SawStop brake cartridge. A tablesaw station is a place to turn wide boards into narrow(er) boards. This can be done safely now.
There is a point at which adding safety features is counterproductive. Users will feel they have been immunized when in fact they have not. I might have employees who decide they'll quit using the stock feeder on Station X because it is fitted with the SawStop. Okay, right away that puts hands closer to the blade. Not good. Further, now I have to rely on a piece of machinery, the SawStop cartridge, rather than the simple concept of never getting hands close in the first place. Simpler solutions are almost always better.
Mr. Gass & Co. have started a business based on a grudge. I won't say that that has never worked, but I don't think it is an ideal circumstance. One thing is clear, if he had his 'druthers he'd be sitting on a beach having licensed the technology and most likely without any assurance, or care, as to whether it was ever actually implemented. Here's 50MM, go away.
That's the impression I get.
Edited 8/9/2005 7:44 pm ET by BossCrunk
BossCrunk,
I completely agree with you -- it's operator intelligence and skill that is most important in woodworking safety. But things like a riving knife help protect against those circumstances when you are doing everything correctly, technically speaking, and still something goes wrong. I've said it before, but for me the riving knife is a bigger improvement than the SawStop braking mechanism, since I personally always use the blade gard and I never get my hands anywhere near the spinning blade. That rule goes for the table saw, bandsaw, miter saw, or router.I don't believe SawStop will make people uncaring about sticking their fingers in the saw blade. There are two reasons for this:1. Even though it does not sever your finger, you do get a nasty cut. The SawStop people tell you that you may still require stitches. At the AWFS Fair, I examined the hot dog, and the blade went in about 1/8", and that's pushing very slowly. In a real-world situation, where a hand or a finger may get thrown with great force into the blade, an operator will certainly get an even worse cut. Yes, you get to keep your finger, but it's still gonna hurt and it's gonna bleed! Actually, if I owned a woodworking shop, with employees, I'd put this on a sign above the SawStop machines.2. It costs time and money to replace the cartridges.
At the AWFS Fair, I examined the hot dog, and the blade went in about 1/8", and that's pushing very slowly. In a real-world situation, where a hand or a finger may get thrown with great force into the blade, an operator will certainly get an even worse cut.
Good information.
BossCrunk,
Think about it. Imagine turning the power off on your table saw, then slamming your hand across the teeth of a blade that is not moving at all. That's gonna cut, and pretty deep! The cut you would get from a SawStop has to be at least that bad. I discussed this with the people at the show. They agree, and are honest about this.Still, the SawStop will prevent an amputation. My point is, people will NOT become lazy around the table saw just because it's a SawStop machine. They may save their finger or their hand, but they will come away with a vibrant reminder of their mistake.I come back to my other point. Since I always use my blade guard, the riving knife is a more valuable advancement for me than the SawStop device. If there were a quality American table saw out there with a real riving knife, I would probably already own it.
Edited 8/10/2005 9:17 am ET by Matthew Schenker
My point is, people will NOT become lazy around the table saw just because it's a SawStop machine.
People become lazy around vintage tablesaws with no guard, splitter, poorly aligned fence, and a host of other safety issues.
I think you are overly optimistic. That's one of my objections with naming the unit SawStop and emblazoning that name across the front of the machine. This thing is all about the blade brake mechanism. It screams, "look at me, I won't hurt you" I posed a general question earlier about the problem with wet(ter) wood and false trips. Does anybody know if this problem has been solved?
Edited 8/10/2005 10:02 am ET by BossCrunk
One of your statements has given me pause. You contend that the tablesaw is a ripping machine and any other use invites disaster. I don't dispute this, however you are overlooking a basic fact of life for thousands (milllions?) of craftsmen/artisans, a group in which I include myself. I use the tablesaw in many ways and for many different kinds of cuts. I've a small custom fabrication shop so I must rely on my ingenuity in using all of my basic machines to do non-standard operations. These usually involve the use of custom one-time use jigs and fixtures. To my way of thinking, the tablesaw presents a spinning blade to a level surface. It's fair use for me to utilize that energy in any way I see fit. I think I use the saw safely. I'm always mindful of the potential harm it can inflict. I think that I am not alone. I'd wager that the vast majority of the participants in this forum do likewise. None of this negates your statement. It's just that, I think, your statement overlooks the reality of most users.You are doing a good job in playing devils advocate in this discussion, although I think you're playing it a bit over the top. Keep it up though, it makes for interesting reading.Jeff
You sound well-grounded and able to assume the additional risk of using the saw for tasks it's not particularly well designed to perform. That's fine.
The point I was trying to make was about tablesaw safety in general. Let a machine feed the wood instead of human hands. Still the most elegant solution as far as I'm concerned.
For all I care the saw could be named brand X and I'd still buy it. But because it is named Sawstop I also don't get any warm fuzzy feelings about it and I don't know anyone else that would either and tend to let their guard down. I'm sure if we took a poll of those on this thread that own the machine they'd probably concur.
As for the wet wood scenario I couldn't tell you about that because it isn't an issue in our shop and if anyone ever brought wet wood in and attempted to process it on any machine they'd be getting their walking papers.
Good points, Ted. To me, the SawStop mechanism comes under the category of "covering all the bases possible re: safety." If it's available, and on a high-quality saw (never mind the fact that it also comes with a riving knife) then why not get it? Like you, I can't imagine being stupid enough to "let my guard down" just because there's a blade brake there. Anyone who is that stupid is going to get hurt regardless, IMHO.
Just thought of an analogy: How many skydivers get sloppy about packing their main chute just because there's an emergency chute serving as back-up?? Sheesh.
Excellent point about the wet wood too.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
To me, the SawStop mechanism comes under the category of "covering all the bases possible re: safety."
Just thought of an analogy: How many skydivers get sloppy about packing their main chute just because there's an emergency chute serving as back-up?? Sheesh.
Have you covered all your bases if you rip without stock feeders? Or, are you covering the bases that are convenient and inexpensive to cover?
Let me see if I can dig up some of your shop shots to get a peek at your stock feeder set up. Can you help me out? Or, are you busy re-packing your main chute?
Edited 8/10/2005 2:20 pm ET by BossCrunk
As for the wet wood scenario I couldn't tell you about that because it isn't an issue in our shop and if anyone ever brought wet wood in and attempted to process it on any machine they'd be getting their walking papers.
Really? You mean your guys have never cut construction lumber and CDX on your machines when building shop fixtures, jigs, storage projects, benches, lumber racks, etc?
Must be an interesting place with all the Mahogany shelving, Bocote workbenches, Tiger Maple jigs, Purpleheart storage cabinets and all the rest...
I've been around a lot of busy shops and your assertion is beyond belief.
Maybe it's time for this thread to die because we've apparently reached the point where untruths are being told for the sake of earning debate points.
Edited 8/10/2005 2:12 pm ET by BossCrunk
Well maybe I should state my definition of "wet" wood whatever that means I guess may be loosly interpreted. Construction lumber yes, as long as it hasn't been sitting outside in a rain storm. Pressure treated lumber no even if it's dry to the bone. Plywood all types (except pressure treated) yes again as long as it hasn't been sitting out in the rain. Is all the material we process down to 6% ? Probably Not. Is 12% considered "wet"? Is 20%EMC considered "wet"? I don't know. Has any of the material we processed caused a Sawstop to trigger? No.
Construction lumber has apparently been causing false trips due to its higher moisture content. I believe we read that in this thread or in links to other articles.
I can't honestly say that a little mist has never fallen on a load of lumber coming into the operation, or while it was being carted from an outbuilding to the machine room and then taken right to processing, usually as moulding or something along those lines. A little exterior moisture certainly doesn't hurt well-seasoned lumber, witness applying a milk paint or other water-based finish to a completed project.
I'm sure we've cut about any kind of general construction material known to man in our operation as everything we built was of course self-constructed. With a shop full of guys who've done it all - framing, trim, furniture, millwork, commercial cabinets, you certainly don't go out of house.
Edited 8/10/2005 4:37 pm ET by BossCrunk
Maybe it's time for this thread to die because we've apparently reached the point where untruths are being told for the sake of earning debate points.
I can see some truth in that statement in more than one of the posts.
Welcome to the fray and feel free to elaborate.
morning Boss,
if the sawstop saw lasts as long as this thread, gass might make it.
jericho
I think I read somewhere that they've already sold 600-800 cabinet saws.Let's assume the selling price was $2500. Lets assume that their cost to mfg is high right now (until they get all the kinks worked out) at $1250So if they are only clearing $1250 per saw they've profited just under $1,000,000.I suspect my cost number is pretty high. I bet it's closer to $800-$1000. Meaning that every 500 saws sold is $750,000 gross margin.Just speculating,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Visit Dust Maker
Mark,
"So if they are only clearing $1250 per saw they've profited just under $1,000,000."
I know what you meant. It just hit me funny. They won't see profit for a while. Between patents, liability ins., set-up costs, ads, shows, etc.
Some times you can look at a list price and divide by three to get a close guess about manufacturing costs. But in the case of start-up costs, it's anybody's guess.
Gass might be at the point of no return. There's too much invested to turn back now.
This thread has gone on a while without the voices of anyone using the saws. Just curious how people like the machines. I don't want a table saw, I just like to watch new inventors storm the walls.
we all spend some up against a wall,
jericho
I would like one of their saws but budget won't allow..yes you are right my language was not precice (it was correct in the bottom of the post however)They grossed just under $1,000,000 on the first 600 saws.Gross margin - divide by 3 is a good rule but not until they get to steady state mfg running production lines at full speed few or no quality or rework issues.Margins should increase until price pressure kicks in. But I'm pretty sure that demand exceeds production right now so price reductions are a long way off.He'll make plenty of money on this venture - fwiw I hope he does.MarkVisit my woodworking blog Dust Maker
Mark,
I forgot to tell you that's the first bow string maker I've ever seen. nice.
I do think Gass will make it.
jericho
Be sure and download the picture of the cam so you can make your own cam locks. They'll come in quite handy :-)The string maker, in that picture, is not quite finished. At the top of the four posts, I installed metal pins (they are nails with a normal flat head and a ring around them about 1/2" down. The string is actually wrapped around these nails.Here is the string making process:http://www.mac.asn.au/string_making.htm. Go down to step 4 or so (get past all the stuff about materials.Mark
Visit my woodworking blog Dust Maker
Surely to God you don't think you could start a woodworking equipment company and be in the black at less than a thousand units sold? Maybe if they were selling robotic stuff at a hundred thousand a pop...
No no no, I'm just looking at the gross margin on machines and rate of income - I can't imagine how many he's got to sell to make money for his investors but it's probably a couple years worth of sales...Mark
Visit my woodworking blog Dust Maker
Well I guess the Boss and I are sort of alike in that we both want to get the last word in.
Apparently there is a switch that is used to disable the blade brake sensor (or whatever it is). Purpose of this is to permit the cutting of wet wood without tripping the brake. I guess you could also use the switch to rip or crosscut your hotdogs, or whatever, too.
"I guess you could also use the switch to rip or crosscut your hotdogs, or whatever, too." Who knows, hubby might get to bring home an elk this year -- that's what I'd use it for!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
NO. That is what the bandsaw with a resaw blade is for.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
With only 3 1/2" or so depth of cut, it would have to be a pretty skinny elk! And think of all the waste from the kerf, and the dust collection!
Grizzly used to make a butcher's band saw. Stainless steel table, etc.
TXJon,
"And think of all the waste from the kerf, and the dust collection!"Nice image.Not to mention that my cats would go nuts for raw meat and end up getting injured.I guess these are all reasons why I don't hunt.
Not sure what hunting has to do with it; I'm sure it would work the same with beef, cats, tomatoes, or anything else ;)
"and the dust collection!" Oh, YUCK!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forest Gurl. don't take it out on Hubby. I used to bring lots of my ELK buddies home after important "Meetings". ( usually to sober up )ED.
Apparently there is a switch that is used to disable the blade brake sensor (or whatever it is). Purpose of this is to permit the cutting of wet wood without tripping the brake.
Well, that's one way to get around a design flaw I guess. Just turn it off.
nice little write up in my wood magazine..When my Jet no longer does the job, a sawstop will be the annoted one.Alan
BC,
the smoke you're referring to is coming from the lasers cutting wood now. it leaves a black edge and has to be sanded.
i do agree that the table saw is slowly chasing the radial arm saw. my prediction sees the pro shop centered around the cnc in big and small versions. it's more of an observation than prediction. it's here. the hobbiest will migrate to the guided saws. they're safer, take up less room, more versatile, etc. the guides are there. waiting on the saws.
back to mr. gass. the fact that he is an attorney tends to color the picture before we read the words. he got stonewalled. they dared him. he's an inventor who's passionate about his idea.
this is where most inventors get off the bus. they need the mind of an engineer, the heart of warrior, and the guts of a gambler. gass just called their bluff in the big game. he's not going down without a fight. one way or the other.
BC, you enjoy a good brawl. this is gonna be one.
jericho
"this is where most inventors get off the bus. they need the mind of an engineer, the heart of warrior, and the guts of a gambler. gass just called their bluff in the big game." I made this point somewhere along the way, but didn't put it anywhere near so eloquently! You are right on target.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
he's not going down without a fight. one way or the other.
I don't see this whole thing as a big enough hammer but I guess we'll see.
BC,
I guess time will only tell if it's a ripple or a wake.
on another note, what were you doing when you were buying all that woodworking equipment. just curious.
jericho
Owning and/or running large millwork operations.
BC, the millwork guys still seem to be making pretty good if they can stay automated. the number of high dollar homes has kept many of them going.
back to the sawstop. I do agree with you on the name.but, again he's a lawyer, not a poet or fifth ave type. ( my apologies to you steve gass. these are just casual and at the most anecdotal observations.)
what you're saying, somewhere in between the lines, is gass should have had a 'quality' manufacturer make the unit, ie higher quality, higher price. this would make the others chase him instead of shoot at him. kind of like toyota making the lexus and having detroit say 'what happened?'
I've got the solution: paint scheme and packaging.
instead of black and red, make it black and green. then package it in a very large reusable white plastic box. give them a discount if they buy the matching DC.
that's enough green humor for today,
jericho
Good post. Great humour.
At the end of the day, are you that tickled about another tablesaw to choose from?
That's the question that the marketplace is sorting out while Mr. Gass tries his case.
Something tells me Mr. Gass would gladly close up shop if the big boys bought his patent and paid him a 'consulting fee' for an extended period of time. Of course he's $hit his own *prospective* nest, so to speak. He's already stated in an on the record interview that he would love to get out of manufacturing. And how, especially since he has to be haemorrhaging cash. I smell Chapter 11.
Edited 8/9/2005 6:49 pm ET by BossCrunk
Thanks' for posting the article.
Troy
Thanks for that one Jericho-I have just skimmed through it and will be going back there several times ,I believe.
I have been watching this thread for some time and watching the Grizzly bashing and quite frankly don't understand it. I have made three purchases from Grizzly and all have been good. I have the 17" bandsaw. I would rate it excellent. I then purchased the 1023SLX tablesaw. It was damaged in transit by the carrier(I repeat the carrier damaged it). I rejected the shipment and called Grizzly and within 5 days had a new one at my door. They followed up with a call to make sure everything was ok. The top is flat as measured with a machinists strait edge. The arbor was parallel to the miter slots as measured with a caliper and magnetic base. The wings were flat as mounted no shimming required. The fence (bessy clone)was square to the blade no adjustments required. The 3hp motor has tons of power. The third piece I bought was the horizontal boring machine. Again fine piece. I am looking at an 8" jointer and it will probable have a green tint as well. Good equipment reasonable price good CS. If you have any specific questions about the 1023, I would be happy to respond.
bones,
I don't want to assume you were referring to me. But just in case you were referring to me when you said you don't understand all the "Grizzly bashing," let me explain. Unlike you, when I took delivery of a damaged drill press from Grizzly, I received no offer to take it back without incurring additional shipping charges, and I was not given the option of having my original shipping refunded. Also, I did not notice any damage until I completely unpacked the machine (the packaging was not damaged, so I could not refuse delivery). Furthermore, the machine developed some other problems after relatively light use in the first couple of months I owned it.I don't contest your positive experiences with Grizzly. I don't claim to "not understand" why some people say such positive things about Grizzly. Again, I don't want to assume you're talking about me, but if so, please do not say that you don't understand my negative experience just because you had a positive one!
Mathew the response was to Cstanford. He was really rough on FG unjustly (IMO). I understand from your other post that you had a bad experience with the purchase of a drill press and you are certainly have a right to the opinion, but the bashing had taken on a really nasty tone from some here. I missed the whole 1023 thread traveling or I would have jumped in since I own one. I had to deal with CS in the purchase. I mean everybody will have a bad output some times and it looks like you got one. You should call and get the contact information for the president of Grizzly and share your experience with him. I was a bushiness major, and I know of no business that tries to run customers away. Some times you get the individual that is not as committed to the success of the company as others. When that happens take it to the next level. If you don't get satisfaction, go higher. I'm not trying to be condescending or preach, but it does work most of the time. Some time back a gentleman posted a bad experience with a mailorder purchase of a unisaw. He too was put off on the catalog vendor and delta. I sent an E-mail to the president (got his E-mail off of the web site) and told him he should check on the thread bashing his company. The long story is they worked it out and made it right, but it took some effort. Should you have gotten a good product yes, but stuff does happen and make them fix it. Can it be fixed with a replacement part? If so, ask for something for your trouble i.e. some bits or a credit of some kind. For the most part they are a good company as most tool companies are. Are they perfect no, but then no one is. They could not be having all the success with out doing something right. I hope you get satisfaction or at least get past the Drill press purchase. I am curious about the model number you purchased and could a replacement part fix the issue? Take care and God Bless.
bones,
I don't mean to be harsh, and I was unsure whether you were referring to me. Of course, a lot of what you say is true, and all manufacturers have some bad apples. Sadly, I have tried some of the customer service follow-ups you mentioned. I got the same answer. I even inquired about it at the AWFS Fair, and was told the same thing. The problem is, some of the issues with this machine surfaced after I had it in my shop for a little while. I'm just plain stuck with this.Since you asked, the model number is G7943.
CS,
That kind of assault is uncalled for and downright rude. What happened to civility?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
"From her perspective, it doesn't make sense that I would have such a bad experience with Grizzly...." Not really, Matthew. I can certainly understand how that could happen, partly because your's is not the only bad experience I seen relayed. Same's true of Jet, counter to my own experiences. Delta? Yep. Doesn't stop me from buying their tools though. I'd have had a more persistent approach than you did, but that's partly a personality thing too -- I take it as a challenge when faced with a stubborn corporate response :>) and enjoy winning, when I do.
I count on forum members to report the good and the bad about various tools, vendors, etc. -- really helps me make decisions. Cstan's report didn't pass the "hold water" test for me though -- see my response to him above.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Cstan, you're (again) missing the point. My problem isn't with the fact that Grizzly is being demeaned, it's that the complaint doesn't hold much water. I will always chime in with questions and arguments when someone trashes a brand (any brand, Jet, Delta, Bosch, whatever) with one bad experience that's undated, with few or no details, and wherein the consumer did not persue any remedy with the manufacturer. My little chat with Matthew is a bit of an aberration because he and I get along well and can carry on more than usual.
"Everybody puts out some clunkers." Couldn't have said it better myself. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"He has been around here since forever, and I know of three different "handles" he has used during that time."
Nikkiwood,
For some reason your post made me think of some highly questionable local retailers who declare bankruptcy to dodge debt, then resurface awhile later under a new name and play the same game all over again.
I don't want to suggest for a minute that posters here employ the same ethics or tactics; maybe it's just an innocent effort to outflank the "ignore" buttons some of use from time to time to avoid the barrage of negativity.
Better stop; feeling a little too cynical for my own good now.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
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